Selling a civil war to Pakistan

[niaz]

Hon Zyxius,

I am looking at it from the view point of the victims of the Islamists. You are worried about the how someone with a beard will feel if he is picked up and questioned. Did you ask how a barber whose shop is blown up feels or how relations of the victims of suicide bombings feel? How Pakistani football team felt (team was invited by Afghan Taliban to play football in Kandhar and after the game their heads were shaved off because they were playing football in shorts!)? What about men who are clean shaven and beaten up because they don’t have the regulation beard! Your post reminds me of Hamid Mir of Geo TV who still champions cause of the Lal Masjid thugs. Did anyone consider how video store owners felt when burqa clad women with sticks went round Islamabad beating them up? There are too many bleeding hearts in Pakistan and that is why we are in a mess.

Most important is the fact that because of their doing inside Pakistan; despite having a UK Passport, I am asked 20 questions before I am given an entry visa. This occurs not only in the US but in Islamic countries such as Kuwait and Qatar. These people have given a bad name not only to Islam but to the whole Pakistani nation. Even Pakistani senators and law makers are refused visa in many countries. I would rather have myself interrogated than be blown up by an Islamist terrorist who happens to look like me.

Even before these troubles, kidnapping in the Tribal areas was quite common. You are only worried about interrogations; a non Pushtoon person like me is likely to killed or kidnapped as soon as I set my foot in Bajour or Waziristan, mainly because sectarian and criminal elements have joined up with the Islamists and it is impossible to distinguish between the three. We have already seen heavy arms fight between Deobandis and Braelvis in the Khyber Agency, a clear indication that Taliban movement is heavily influenced by the Wahabi teaching and believe that all others are heretics.

The reason why I gave example of the Wahabi movement of 18th century because rise of Wahabis in the Najd is very similar to the rise of the Taliban in Afghanistan and in Pakistan. While I don’t know much about Sh. Fawzan, he being a contemporary scholar; I own a couple of books about Mohammed bin Abdul Wahab (including his work on Tawhid) and his inspiration Sh. Ibne Timiyia and also a history of the Wahabi movement (all in English). There is little doubt that Wahabi creed was imposed on Najd by use of force with the help of the Saudi clan. There were people within Najd as well as many Egyptian Islamic scholars who proscribed Abdul Wahab. You have however every right to follow his teaching if you feel he was in the right. My personal beliefs are inclined towards a milder form of Islam and towards Sufism. This is 180 degrees opposite to what Salafin preach, however I expect that you would respect my views as well.

When it comes to Pakistan I become very partial. Having lived and experienced the situation thru 1947 I have seen how the society has become brutalised. Jamiat Ulema e Hind was a Deobandi forum dead against creation of Pakistan. It is my belief that these forces shifted to Pakistan and continued their mission of creating a universal Islamic State even if it means destruction of Pakistan. These forces are now combined and called Taliban; they neither believe in democracy nor in the national boundary lines. Their aim being creation of a utopia based on the 7th century imagined state. What do you think would be the result if US starts bombing FATA. Public will sympathize with the Taliban and Pakistan state can break up; this is precisely what these Islamist elements want as then they will be able to gain control.

I maintain that no one is trying to sell a civil war to Pakistan. Taliban sympathizers and extremist outfits of Deobandi maslak are trying to impose a civil war with the objective of creating an environment which will help Jihadi elements to gain control of the state and create an Islamic emirate on the pattern of Mulla Omer’s Afghanistan.

Again this is my view point and I have no problem with those who don’t agree with it. Unlike the Islamists, I don’t believe in ram- roding my beliefs down other people’s throat.

I have nothing more to say on this subject.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Very Nice NIAZ!

I Quote you:
I maintain that no one is trying to sell a civil war to Pakistan. Taliban sympathizers and extremist outfits of Deobandi maslak are trying to impose a civil war with the objective of creating an environment which will help Jihadi elements to gain control of the state and create an Islamic emirate on the pattern of Mulla Omer’s Afghanistan.

Only disagree with this cause the Jihadi Elements in Pakistan Army and Establishment also donot want a Pro Taliban Society. Its difficult to Understand but its not a Wahabi Dinesty under Creation in my perseption but a clear case of mishandling and ill backup planning of Afghan Policy by PA and Establlishment (IA's etc also) which was to be highlighted once US becomes impatient of your Dual Policy!

 

[Zyxius]

Hon Zyxius,

You are worried about the how someone with a beard will feel if he is picked up and questioned.

I'm worried about the rule of law and checks and balances.

Most important is the fact that because of their doing inside Pakistan; despite having a UK Passport, I am asked 20 questions before I am given an entry visa. This occurs not only in the US but in Islamic countries such as Kuwait and Qatar. These people have given a bad name not only to Islam but to the whole Pakistani nation. Even Pakistani senators and law makers are refused visa in many countries.

So arbitrary discrimation and application of the law is unfair isn't it?

I would rather have myself interrogated than be blown up by an Islamist terrorist who happens to look like me.

Yes but what if instead of just harrassing you at the airport for an hour, they lock you up because your name is similar to someone elses? With you being an "enemy combatant" it'll be a cold day in hell before you get any justice.

Would it be ok with you then?

We have already seen heavy arms fight between Deobandis and Braelvis in the Khyber Agency, a clear indication that Taliban movement is heavily influenced by the Wahabi teaching and believe that all others are heretics.

This shows that your understanding is flawed. Salafi's and Deobandi's are two different things. Having intimate knowledge of both, I can tell you that they are like oil and water.

These forces are now combined and called Taliban; they neither believe in democracy nor in the national boundary lines.

Salafi's and Deobandi's consider Barelvi's to practice shirk....so there is absolutely no way that they would be combined on a Taliban platform. This shows your lack of knowledge on the subject and I would urge you not to speculate.

Regarding democracy, I am talking about rule of law and checks and balances which you seem to be suggesting should be abandoned in this case. Thus, it is you who are against democracy.

I maintain that no one is trying to sell a civil war to Pakistan. Taliban sympathizers and extremist outfits of Deobandi maslak are trying to impose a civil war with the objective of creating an environment which will help Jihadi elements to gain control of the state and create an Islamic emirate on the pattern of Mulla Omer’s Afghanistan.

Please provide CREDIBLE proof that even one single organization Deobandi or Taliban or Barelvi or Salafi that has stated that this is its objective.

On the other hand we know that the US is in Afghanistan on the basis of the LIE that they have proof that Usama Bin Laden was behind 9/11. We know that the US lied to get into Iraq. Now the Americans want war with Iran and they are lying to make that happen. Now they want these people inside Pakistan dead. Should we believe them and accept their pressure?

Again this is my view point and I have no problem with those who don’t agree with it. Unlike the Islamists, I don’t believe in ram- roding my beliefs down other people’s throat.

I understand it is your point of view but I am trying to show you the flaws in the way you are seeing things, not trying to insult you or ram anything down your throat. Please evaluate what you are saying and try to put it into one sentence....then take that to its logical conclusion......let's walk thru this.

 

[xea]

Our political leaders are still entangled into controversial theories, indicating internal rivalries regarding the assassination of former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, especially blaming the Musharraf government. In fact, this national tragedy is an international conspiracy against Pakistan , conducted by some US-led powers who intend to create instability in the country for achieving their geo-strategic goals on regional and global level.

Western countries, their leaders, media and secret agencies which were blindly supporting the military regime of President Musharraf since 9/11 have started a series of accusations against Pakistan Army that it might be behind Ms Bhutto’s murder. In response, ISPR spokesman Major General Waheed Arshad categorically rejected these allegations as “utterly nonsense”. A spokesman of the Foreign Office also pointed out that Western media has twisted certain remarks. “We reject such ridiculous and absurd insinuations against Pakistan ”—and their “intent to see Pakistan destabilized,” he added.

The fact of the matter is that duplicity on the part of the US and some of its European allies at this juncture is a greater plot against Pakistan, which itself is a part of the new cold war. Rapidly developing geo-political differences among regional states and global powers in Asia show that a new cold war between the Russia-China alliance and the US-led nations is in its embryonic stage and Pakistan is likely to play a vital role in the game due to its geo-strategic location. In this context, American real strategic allies like India and Afghanistan have already been creating instability in Pakistan by favouring some hostile elements in the provinces of NWFP and Balochistan. In these provinces, various events of bomb blasts, kidnappings and killings of Iranian and Chinese engineers in the last two years might be cited as example.

It is noteworthy that on August 8, 2007, Major (Retd) Tanvir Hussain, the former parliamentary secretary for defence accused the American CIA of killing Chinese nationals in Pakistan to harm the cordial relations between Islamabad and Beijing.

As regards the brutal murder of Ms Bhutto in Rawalpindi—the city where already two prime ministers were eliminated show that it was an appropriate place chosen by the conspirators which could best serve the interests of some superior power and its partners to further strengthen the separatist elements in the provinces, particularly Sindh in wake of the US sponsored war on terror. Even Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottahi who visited Islamabad for offering condolences stated on January 4, 2008 that people who had killed Benazir Bhutto wanted to “destabilize Pakistan and the region”.

Meanwhile, contradictory statements of our interior ministry including the concerned doctors—and holding Al Qaeda-related Taliban and their leader Baitullah Mehsud responsible for the death of Ms Bhutto has further confused the issue. But Taliban leaders have denied this suicide attack, saying that killing the women was against their tribal traditions.

It is notable that a British daily Scotland on December 30, 2007 reported while quoting British Intelligence Agency MI-5 sources that Pakistan ’s secret agency may have been behind the attack on the charismatic politician Bhutto.

Logically speaking, we cannot blame any of our secret agency or establishment as a whole in relation to this sinister event. Some persons on individual and non-official level might have taken part in this conspiracy actually prepared by American CIA and India to intensify unrest and uncertainty in Pakistan to fulfil their self-interests.

In this connection, past record of the CIA verifies this fact. In the recent past, an officially declassified document of the CIA had revealed that during the Cold War era, the agency had tried to kill the Cuban President Fidel Castro. Nevertheless such plots do not succeed without the cooperation of the officials of the target-country.

It is of particular attention that on January 3, 2008, even President Musharraf while addressing a press conference about the probe of Benazir’s killing, acknowledged the reports that crime scene had been quickly washed after her murder, possibly destroying the evidence. He admitted, “I am not fully satisfied, I am with you about the cleaning of the area”. Another dimension is that quite contrary to the demand of PPP co-chairman Asif Zardari, White House spokesman Dana Perino on January 3, 2007 supported the Scotland Yard, disfavouring a UN investigation into Benazir’s killing on the pattern of Lebanese leader Harari.

However, we should not ignore the double-game, being played by the US-led countries since September 11 and its aftermath, drastically affecting all the Muslims in Afghanistan , Iraq , Lebanon , Ethiopia , Palestine and Kashmir . Now America and states like India are trying to convert Pakistan into another failed state. Such a phenomenon in the country shall justify the deployments of NATO forces with the pretension that Pakistan is a terrorist state and nuclear weapons may go into the hands of Al Qaeda.

Washington which wants to see Pakistan a moderate and democratically stable state on the one hand is creating a greater instability in the country by encouraging covertly extremism and terrorism on the other.

Consequently, one can not rule out foreign hands in the tragic incident of Bhutto’s assassination which is undoubtedly an international conspiracy against the federation of Pakistan .
God Bless Ameen.

LINK: http://www.igloo.org/terrorism/internat

 

[Majnun]

Reading the name of this post, I was a bit sceptical.

But, yeah, this seems about right.

God Bless Pakistan

 

[xea]

Reading the name of this post, I was a bit sceptical.

But, yeah, this seems about right.

God Bless Pakistan

Thanks...!!
GOD BLESS

 

[Zyxius]

This is essentially what I'm saying in my 'Selling a civil war to Pakistan' thread...but surprisingly many people are falling into the trap and handing blank checks to the government to go into 'Secret Overdrive Mode' in this whole War on Terror nonsense. I don't doubt that foreign interests are promoting this agenda and we are swallowing the bait. What's more is that Geo conveniently comes up with an interview with a top Al Qaeda dude just in time to make the case that we need to give our military orders to beef up the War on Terror operations within our own country. The Al Qaeda dude made no demands, laid out no requests, and basically got nothing out of this interview...but he did manage to admit to everything under the sun so that we don't have to bother with all kinds of different evidence and can rather just watch a quick 2 minute video that shows us what the bad guys are supposed to look like and that they are guilty of everything. What a bunch of morons we are.

 

[muse]

Does it matter that 2 investigations have revealed that Benazir died of a injury when she struck her head on a latch of the sunroof of the vehicle she was riding in?

Yes, there were two assination attempts by suiciders -- now in our experience who uses suicide bombers???

Please do let us be clear headed abot the enemy - yes, there many such, but that is not a reason to suggest they are all involved when we know who it is that uses suicide bombers, maybe that part is too hard for some to wrap their critical faculties around.

 

[Zyxius]

Does it matter that 2 investigations have revealed that Benazir died of a injury when she struck her head on a latch of the sunroof of the vehicle she was riding in?

Yes, there were two assination attempts by suiciders -- now in our experience who uses suicide bombers???

Please do let us be clear headed abot the enemy - yes, there many such, but that is not a reason to suggest they are all involved when we know who it is that uses suicide bombers, maybe that part is too hard for some to wrap their critical faculties around.

Every side uses suicide bombers...nobody has the monopoly on the use of them as you seem to be suggesting. Indians use them, as do Sri Lankans, as do hard line Islamic groups, as do agencies that seek to create instability. It is a leap of logic to say that because it was a suicide bombing, it must be such and such a group....that alone cannot be a determinant.

 

[su-47]

Every side uses suicide bombers...nobody has the monopoly on the use of them as you seem to be suggesting. Indians use them, as do Sri Lankans, as do hard line Islamic groups, as do agencies that seek to create instability. It is a leap of logic to say that because it was a suicide bombing, it must be such and such a group....that alone cannot be a determinant.

if more than 40% of the market share of something is controlled by an indivdual or a group, it can be called a monopoly. in this case more than 90% of suicide bombing is done by islamic fundamentalists. so to say that they have monopolised suicide bombing is actually correct!

 

[Zyxius]

if more than 40% of the market share of something is controlled by an indivdual or a group, it can be called a monopoly. in this case more than 90% of suicide bombing is done by islamic fundamentalists. so to say that they have monopolised suicide bombing is actually correct!

If that's the way you're gonna spin this then one could also say that India and Africa have a monopoly on poverty because of the sheer number of people that live in both places combined as a percentage of the total. Similarly, because India is home to over 180 million Dalits....although the caste system is now officially illegal....but the affects will take generations to eliminate....therefore one could say that India has a monopoly on oppression because of the sheer number of people who are are treated as second class citizens. You should try to keep personal biases out of genuine analysis...and definitions and words should not be treated as the exclusive domain of one religious or ethnic group even though you may be itching to label them that way.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

'Selling a civil war' and 'international conspiracy' threads merged.

 

[Flintlock]

If that's the way you're gonna spin this then one could also say that India and Africa have a monopoly on poverty because of the sheer number of people that live in both places combined as a percentage of the total.way.

Well duh....why do you think we are called 3rd world countries.

 

[muse]

Zy

"Every side uses suicide bombers..."

I must say this is hardly a fair or honest position -- In Pakistan where Benazir died, you and all readers know all too well who uses suicide bombers. Now you wish to suggest that the governments law enforcement agencies use suicide bombers as well - this is, well... it's just plain silly.

 

[Zyxius]

Zy

"Every side uses suicide bombers..."

I must say this is hardly a fair or honest position -- In Pakistan where Benazir died, you and all readers know all too well who uses suicide bombers. Now you wish to suggest that the governments law enforcement agencies use suicide bombers as well - this is, well... it's just plain silly.

Pakistani side has used suicide bombers (indirectly and directly) as strategic depth Afghanistan and Kashmir. We all supported Taliban and Al Qaeda when they served the purpose that we wanted from them. The US supports Jundallah to carry out operations against Iran. India has its own vested interests in Afghanistan and it would be naive to think that they don't sponsor a group or two to create instability in Pakistan. The blasts in Banaras a few weeks ago weren't religious extremists...even the authorities admit that...they say these were designed to create ethnic problems in Karachi and could have been done by a foreign hand. Everyone uses those who are poor and ignorant and lets not kid ourselves and think that they adhere to higher ethics and moral codes than the everybody else. Everybody's hands are dirty in this one.