Selling a civil war to Pakistan

[Zyxius]

Alright Salim and JK but that does NOT amount to the same thing! Ofcourse the goverment never said they dismissed the CJ over the missing people issue. Thats right, everything you said is "alleged", the goverment hasn't admitted to any thing. Either Zyxius chose his words badly for effect or he knows something we dont...

P.S. Zyxius I think I asked you a question..?

Kasrkin,

I thought you had been given an answer by JK, but I guess you are now trying to distinguish between what is alleged and what is proved. In my view, that is a side issue to the main point which is respect for the law by the public as well as those who are responsible to uphold the law.

However, considering that you have raised this issue...let us examine a few facts:

1. The government has admitted to massive civilian casualties as a result of its bombings. Just Wana alone saw more than 50 women and children killed. Let me ask the cheerleaders of the Shock and Awe policy if they believe this action is ever justified? They have therefore admitted to bombing their own territories and killing civilians.

2. The government admitted that the Chief Justice's raising of the kidnapping issue was problematic because of our relationship with the Americans. They admitted handing people over to the Americans....people that were then flown off and never seen again. I should question however why it is important to you whether they admitted it, when we all know they actually did do it...even the Americans say the Pakistani government did.

3. Torture is part of the package. Americans admitted to the world that people captured in Pakistan were first tortured by Pakistanis before handing them over to the white-glove-wearing Americans. The Pakistani government has admitted to "Heavy interrogation" of these people while the other side used more plain language.

Its stunning to me how many people are willing to abandon the rule of law because they feel that it is justified in such and such a case....but they want to punish those (Taliban in this case) who have also abandoned the rule of law because they feel that it is justified in their case. What is even more stunning is that in our exchanges, some of these people seem quite normal.

2.

2.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I feel that the Doomsday scenarios presented by countries are merely to garner more power for itself to undertake more draconian measures than what is already there.

Political and social chaos in no way means that there is the imminence of a civil war!

There is no doubt that there are serious divides with Pakistan, be it with the Balochis, Marris, Pashtuns or the Shias of the NA or even the sectarian divide in Pakistan. It is because of genuine and perceived injustice.

But give it a thought - are they stupid to believe that they can exist as independent entities? Have they the wherewithal to exist so? Will their land support the economy essential for an independent nation? Are their leaders so stupid? If they are, then they should do what they want to do and then perish without leaving any trace!!

Therefore, I find the civil war theory a trifle far fetched and more of a scare phenomenon to coalesce the others to fight an invisible threat!

Personally, no matter what good Pakistani feel on the forum and raise populist bogeys of disintegration, I am convinced that Pakistan is not a nation that resemble a pack of cards!!

It has the ''tensility'' to rebound from adverse situations!

It is no push over!!

It is surprising to see people lose heart at the slightest of adversity!

 

[Zyxius]

Mr Dear Salim,

Although I do not have high hopes that what I am about to say will make any difference to your rigid point of view....the thread here is about special interests selling a civil war to Pakistan........it has nothing to do with losing hope and all that hooplaa you are going on about.

Discussions only make sense when both sides respond to each other rather than just make random statements past each other.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Kasrkin,

I thought you had been given an answer by JK, but I guess you are now trying to distinguish between what is alleged and what is proved. In my view, that is a side issue to the main point which is respect for the law by the public as well as those who are responsible to uphold the law.

However, considering that you have raised this issue...let us examine a few facts:

1. The government has admitted to massive civilian casualties as a result of its bombings. Just Wana alone saw more than 50 women and children killed. Let me ask the cheerleaders of the Shock and Awe policy if they believe this action is ever justified? They have therefore admitted to bombing their own territories and killing civilians.

Dear,

For the reason that if you allow uzbeks, tajik, Turkamans, Azik, Yemeni, Saudi, Misri and all sorts of Jihadists to hide in Pakistan Land without the will and understading of the Governement of Pakistan you will get what you got!
They were being killed becuase they were told not to support but they did. It is our Homeland but if we do something which is against the policies and endanger our Freedom and respect with the world then you are to be punished. Its just that!

2. The government admitted that the Chief Justice's raising of the kidnapping issue was problematic because of our relationship with the Americans. They admitted handing people over to the Americans....people that were then flown off and never seen again. I should question however why it is important to you whether they admitted it, when we all know they actually did do it...even the Americans say the Pakistani government did.

3. Torture is part of the package. Americans admitted to the world that people captured in Pakistan were first tortured by Pakistanis before handing them over to the white-glove-wearing Americans. The Pakistani government has admitted to "Heavy interrogation" of these people while the other side used more plain language.

First of all you have your ideas based on speculations and feeds from the media which is far from the Truth. I wont say that people are not missing they are but IMPORTANT is who are missing!

People who supported anti Government Elements in some way and people who thought that they will go and fight a war in Afghanistan and help Taliban against US and when they lost the battle they came back to hide in Pakistan. Ironical! Should have died fighting there..... Imagine people who helped these Taliban elements inside Pakistan with Medical Support and Intel Against GOP and other assets. They deserve what they got because they had an agenda which was against GOP and Pakistan. If they were sold to America that is what you get when your own Government told you to Stand Down when Afghanistan was being attacked.

Taliban's were told, asked and persuaded not to make a mockery of Islam by adopting the Extermist Misconceptions when they Ruled Afghanistan by adopting the most wrongly implicated Shariah Rules and Laws. But they thought they are Allah's Soldiers and True Muslims and they are creating a True Muslim Society. What happened? True Muslims donot get beaten the S H I T out of THEM.

Stunning is that these people believe that they are right!
THEY ARE LOST!

ISLAM swept to Spain in the West and to Russian in the North and to Malaysia in the South EAST and to all of Central and Far Eastern Countries not by EXTREMIST BELIEFS BUT BY ITS VERTUES OF KINDNESS, BY IT'S LAWS OF SOCIETY WHICH ARE DERIVED NOT FROM EXTREMISM BUT FROM FORGIVENESS AND JUSTICE AT THE SAME TIME WITH PUNISHMENT IF GUILTY.

 

[Zyxius]

Dear,

For the reason that if you allow uzbeks, tajik, Turkamans, Azik, Yemeni, Saudi, Misri and all sorts of Jihadists to hide in Pakistan Land without the will and understading of the Governement of Pakistan you will get what you got!

are you saying that these people were welcome as long as the government approved of them, and then when it didn't, it could just turn around and kick them out? Many of these people moved here in the 80s and fought the jihad that is the reason you and I dont speak Russian today and there is still a Pakistan. They then ended up marrying here and settling here....they are now in effect residents of that area and are locals like anyone else....are you saying that they too should be kicked out? And if so, does that mean that you believe all Mohajirs should be kicked out of Pakistan? And if so, who should be allowed to remain in Pakistan if not those who migrated to this country?

Which people exactly are you referring to?

They were being killed becuase they were told not to support but they did.

who was being killed? Only those who were absolutely sure to be involved? Or are you counting the 80 women and children killed in just one incident in Wana also?

It is our Homeland but if we do something which is against the policies and endanger our Freedom and respect with the world then you are to be punished. Its just that!

I assume by freedom you mean the right to live without being arbitrarily arrested or killed. Yeah, thats called due process and its something you are saying that you dont believe in.

First of all you have your ideas based on speculations and feeds from the media which is far from the Truth.

I'm sorry, are you saying that women and children have not been killed by our government? Because they did admit it and that is not speculation. In the next sentence you are admitting that they also kidnapped, which is by definition illegal.

I wont say that people are not missing they are but IMPORTANT is who are missing!

So you are saying that it is ok for the government to kidnap people and make them disappear without charge or word to anyone? Did you not say something about our freedoms? You do realize that these two things contradict one another...dont you?

People who supported anti Government Elements in some way and people who thought that they will go and fight a war in Afghanistan and help Taliban against US and when they lost the battle they came back to hide in Pakistan. Ironical! Should have died fighting there..... Imagine people who helped these Taliban elements inside Pakistan with Medical Support and Intel Against GOP and other assets. They deserve what they got because they had an agenda which was against GOP and Pakistan. If they were sold to America that is what you get when your own Government told you to Stand Down when Afghanistan was being attacked.

the hypocrisy of what you are saying here should be obvious. However to state the obvious; you are saying that the Taliban were ok as long as their agenda was the same as GoP...which is run by people whom as you know are not sincere to the people of Pakistan. furthermore, you are saying that it is ok for our government to kidnap people, make them disappear, and sell them to foreign governments.

Let me ask you...what is preventing them from doing the same to you?

its called THE RULE OF LAW. And if you void it for one, you void it for all.

Taliban's were told, asked and persuaded not to make a mockery of Islam by adopting the Extermist Misconceptions when they Ruled Afghanistan by adopting the most wrongly implicated Shariah Rules and Laws. But they thought they are Allah's Soldiers and True Muslims and they are creating a True Muslim Society. What happened? True Muslims donot get beaten the S H I T out of THEM.

Actually, it is an accepted fact that the GoP used the Taliban for its own purposes. What we know of them and their "extremist practices" is probably just as much media hype as Iraq's weapons of Mass destruction, or the threat to Israel's existence posed by Iran and you cannot claim "media speculation" for your cause and then deny it here.

What happened to them was what happened to Iraq. The US lied about Bin Laden being behind 9/11 and they invaded another country and killed millions of innocent people......something you seem to be very happy about. Do you also support the invasion of Iraq? And will you support it when/if the US Pakistan?

Stunning is that these people believe that they are right!
THEY ARE LOST!

I could not agree with you more.

ISLAM swept to Spain in the West and to Russian in the North and to Malaysia in the South EAST and to all of Central and Far Eastern Countries not by EXTREMIST BELIEFS BUT BY ITS VERTUES OF KINDNESS, BY IT'S LAWS OF SOCIETY WHICH ARE DERIVED NOT FROM EXTREMISM BUT FROM FORGIVENESS AND JUSTICE AT THE SAME TIME WITH PUNISHMENT IF GUILTY.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. You seem to support the illegal US invasion, kidnapping/disappearing of people, killing of civilians by government, etc....and on the other hand you are talking about kindness, spreading Islam, forgiveness, justice and punishment of the guilty....etc. You are contradicting yourself.

 

[Flintlock]

Obviously, in an ideal society, the rule of law should be used to punish the guilty. But this ideal society is dependent on the fact that the various branches of the state like the police, the judiciary, and the general rule of law is in good health.

When the state fails to keep things under control, one cannot use the normal methods. This is why every constitution has emergency provisions which suspend civil liberties in times of crisis.

The US government has infact violated the principles of its constitution by authorizing torture, wiretapping, illegal monitoring of people's activities etc. These are not acceptable and cannot be defended in any court. However, George Bush has managed to smuggle them in by misusing his powers.

As far as Guantanamo bay is concerned, the US dos not care about the rights and freedoms of foreigners. Torture is illegal on American soil, so it has gone to Cuba where there are no such anti-torture laws. However, credit goes to American freedom of speech that the topic has been debated in public and the government has agreed to eventually close down the place.

Similarly, the US does not give a damn if Pakistani civilians die in their bombing raids. Its the responsibility of the Government of Pakistan to protect their civilians, and I'm afraid that they have failed to do so.

On the topic of bombing raids itself, I think that it is the result of a series of bad decisions and circumstances, and one cannot blame any single party.

 

[JK!]

FATA is more akin to the American wild west so therefore normal policing and law enforcement is not possible.

That is a long term goal for the tribal areas its a case of not right now.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

are you saying that these people were welcome as long as the government approved of them, and then when it didn't, it could just turn around and kick them out? Many of these people moved here in the 80s and fought the jihad that is the reason you and I dont speak Russian today and there is still a Pakistan. They then ended up marrying here and settling here....they are now in effect residents of that area and are locals like anyone else....are you saying that they too should be kicked out? And if so, does that mean that you believe all Mohajirs should be kicked out of Pakistan? And if so, who should be allowed to remain in Pakistan if not those who migrated to this country?

Which people exactly are you referring to?




who was being killed? Only those who were absolutely sure to be involved? Or are you counting the 80 women and children killed in just one incident in Wana also?



I assume by freedom you mean the right to live without being arbitrarily arrested or killed. Yeah, thats called due process and its something you are saying that you dont believe in.



I'm sorry, are you saying that women and children have not been killed by our government? Because they did admit it and that is not speculation. In the next sentence you are admitting that they also kidnapped, which is by definition illegal.



So you are saying that it is ok for the government to kidnap people and make them disappear without charge or word to anyone? Did you not say something about our freedoms? You do realize that these two things contradict one another...dont you?



the hypocrisy of what you are saying here should be obvious. However to state the obvious; you are saying that the Taliban were ok as long as their agenda was the same as GoP...which is run by people whom as you know are not sincere to the people of Pakistan. furthermore, you are saying that it is ok for our government to kidnap people, make them disappear, and sell them to foreign governments.

Let me ask you...what is preventing them from doing the same to you?

its called THE RULE OF LAW. And if you void it for one, you void it for all.




Actually, it is an accepted fact that the GoP used the Taliban for its own purposes. What we know of them and their "extremist practices" is probably just as much media hype as Iraq's weapons of Mass destruction, or the threat to Israel's existence posed by Iran and you cannot claim "media speculation" for your cause and then deny it here.

What happened to them was what happened to Iraq. The US lied about Bin Laden being behind 9/11 and they invaded another country and killed millions of innocent people......something you seem to be very happy about. Do you also support the invasion of Iraq? And will you support it when/if the US Pakistan?



I could not agree with you more.



You seem to be contradicting yourself. You seem to support the illegal US invasion, kidnapping/disappearing of people, killing of civilians by government, etc....and on the other hand you are talking about kindness, spreading Islam, forgiveness, justice and punishment of the guilty....etc. You are contradicting yourself.

Brother!

No one is supporting Invasion of US...

Please try to see the text in its true context and not otherwise. The Invasion after Taliban becoming and being supported by Pakistanis and with Saudis (monetarily) was not to be if they have listened... Its not that you become a Bull after 2 Years and from a Sheep and roam the whole Jungle!

US is a threat for the world ... and it seems IA's give them the chance to make indepths in heart of Middle east and Asia now and then and we always palyed along... Afghanistan has a histroy after 1989 withdrawl of USSR.

Kindly read that and then say what you want about the situation we are in!

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Zyxius,

One more thing is that i think you are in Pakistan and i also belong from Pakistan.. Just to correct you if i include the social circle of my surroundings... All family relatives and all relatives of every friend i have i would say they will be nearly 20000 people whom i would hear if taken by agencies for Interogation on Criminal and terrorist involvement...

I never have heard that!

People who are Involved by any means by whatever understanding of faith they have are the ones that are being picked up and they were and are the ones at fault. If its their famalies crying then i shall say should have stopped your son, father or whatever from getting involved .. If then you thought that it is GOD's work then now sit tight and pray.

Donot get involved in a fight which is not yours ... If you are standing with people who are murders or thieves .. Police wont ask before kicking you thrice..."what were you doing there".... People not related to this non sense are never harmed .... Accidently may be but seldom.

 

[Kasrkin]

but I guess you are now trying to distinguish between what is alleged and what is proved. In my view, that is a side issue to the main point which is respect for the law by the public as well as those who are responsible to uphold the law.

Mr Zyxius, you sound like a reasonable person; I asked you a clear question, please don't confuse it. The only thing that I am trying to do is ask you WHERE and WHEN did the Pakistani government ever acknowledge torturing or kidnapping people? That's a very simple question, since your piece there explicitly states(with great dramatics if I might add) that the Pakistani government has acknowledged so. I don't want to talk about whether it happened or not right now, but just want to get simple ground realities straight.

I should question however why it is important to you whether they admitted it, when we all know they actually did do it...even the Americans say the Pakistani government did.

Now I did not expect that from you, these were your words, not mine, yours. You said they ADMITTED it, at least have the honour to say you over-spoke or worded it crudely. Because they have NOT admitted any such thing. And secondly don't try to blame it on me as if I am arrogant or over looking anything. The allegation that they admitted it is obviously far more important to you than it is to me since you are the one who decided to level it. I was just curious as to the fact that you might be knowing something that I didn't. As it turns out you don't, and bombarding me with repetitions of your rhetoric will not change that.
Now that we got the FACT straight that our military has never and will never admit to indulging in this, I for one will choose to believe that my country-men are not torturers. You disagree obviously, and will probably try to imply I am arrogant or naive as to the ground realities. Fine, but then remember I can say the very same about you and your grasp on the theology and concepts of war. Ironically you chose to lay faith in some anonymous report or American/British official's frustrated ramblings about our country's security policy and completely ignore all the hundreds of times our military officials and leaders have made clear that no such abuses take place. Funny thing is if the Americans had stated otherwise you wont have believed a word of it and found another justification for leveling insinuations against your own people.

Now dont get me wrong Zyxius, I respect you, I really do. That is why I would like you to tell me, exactly how you would handle the complex and hard MILITARY situation in FATA right now, if you were the COAS or anyone you wanna be. I mean you have said a lot on this thread, but how does it all relate into the ground situation? These are heavily armed, man-powered and fuedalistic-ly militarized tribes who dont give a damn about what anyone else thinks, and never have given a damn, heck they fight each other when they are bored just for the thrill of it, basicly the perfect rebel army with perfectly crude landscape and people required for the job. And certainly WoT is not the first time they have threatened or help threaten Pakistan's security.
Now they blow up 20 Pakistan service men on a routine patrol and then threaten and WARN the government not to even dare and try and collect their bodies, or there will be full-fledged fighting across the sector. So how do you think these people should be dealt with?
(Again I am not asking because i wish to blow holes into your plan or anything, but simply because I am curious. I will not be making any comments of my own if you choose to answer.)

 

[Zyxius]

Brother!

No one is supporting Invasion of US...

Please try to see the text in its true context and not otherwise. The Invasion after Taliban becoming and being supported by Pakistanis and with Saudis (monetarily) was not to be if they have listened... Its not that you become a Bull after 2 Years and from a Sheep and roam the whole Jungle!

Please keep in mind that the US invaded because the Taliban requested proof of Usama Bin Laden's involvement in 9/11. Proof which the US refused to give and said, "shut up and fork him over". They were willing to try and punish Usama within Afghanistan, and even willing to extradite him if they gave proof...but were not willing to just hand someone over without any good reasoning. This is when the US started bombing.

You will notice today that even their own federal agencies do not have proof that Usama was involved in 9/11. Therefore the Taliban were not wrong in any way, and it was the US that was the aggressor....they could not have done anything about it....invasion was a foregone conclusion and this was just an excuse.

US is a threat for the world ... and it seems IA's give them the chance to make indepths in heart of Middle east and Asia now and then and we always palyed along... Afghanistan has a histroy after 1989 withdrawl of USSR.

Kindly read that and then say what you want about the situation we are in!

I'm not sure what you are saying here...but the US is a hegemonic power and uses EXCUSES to invade and establish a military presence. They've recently set up an AfriCOM also. It is an agressor nation.

 

[Zyxius]

Mr Zyxius, you sound like a reasonable person; I asked you a clear question, please don't confuse it. The only thing that I am trying to do is ask you WHERE and WHEN did the Pakistani government ever acknowledge torturing or kidnapping people? That's a very simple question, since your piece there explicitly states(with great dramatics if I might add) that the Pakistani government has acknowledged so. I don't want to talk about whether it happened or not right now, but just want to get simple ground realities straight.

Last time I checked, the government had 3 branches; the Executive, Legislative, and Judiciary. From the Judiciary, we know that the judges admit that the GoP kidnapped people and sold them to Americans....I think even you will agree that Chaudry Iftikhar at least has taken this stand. This point alone does answer your question. From the legislative, there are countless MNAs, MPA and Senators who have been on Television and have mentioned on various talk shows, i.e. Ejaz ul Haq, faisal Saleh hayat, and Qazi hussain. From the Executive side, Mushy himself said that he is cooperating with the Americans to track down people in his country and that they have had success in capturing many militants whom they turned over to the US....he said this virtually every time on national television, particularly after Khalid Shaikh Mohammad was picked up from here.

I'm not clear why it is the major emphasis of your post to distinguish between what may have been admitted and what is definitely known from countless sources including the US, regardless of direct admittion. i'm also not clear why you chose to ignore the killing of civilians by our GoP. Why just pick on this one point?

Now that we got the FACT straight that our military has never and will never admit to indulging in this, I for one will choose to believe that my country-men are not torturers.

That is frankly delusional. Our police slap around people they arrest for absolutely no reason, even before they are convicted of anything, you want to live in the dreamworld that our countrymen do not torture?

The military did admit to massive civilian deaths in their bombing raids. Not once, not twice, but countless times. Do you deny that our countrymen did this?

Ironically you chose to lay faith in some anonymous report or American/British official's frustrated ramblings about our country's security policy and completely ignore all the hundreds of times our military officials and leaders have made clear that no such abuses take place.

What abuses are you talking about? Killing of civilians? torture? Kidnapping? Please be specific which of these you are denying.

That is why I would like you to tell me, exactly how you would handle the complex and hard MILITARY situation in FATA right now, if you were the COAS or anyone you wanna be. I mean you have said a lot on this thread, but how does it all relate into the ground situation?

I make the agreement with them on the basis of what they believe in most; Sharia. I would invite Shaykh Bin Baaz of Saudi Arabia (Former Imam of Makkah) who was the person who declared Jihad against the Russians in the 1980s and I would form a council of Islamic Elders with the leading Scholars of the world, and I would provide them with Pakistani armed forces and back up. There would be very clear laws about what is and isn't allowed and the Islamic Council of Elders would bare witness to it. Any one who violated the law would have to be punished according to the due process laid out in this agreement. Everything would have to be transparent and no foreign pressure should be entertained in the slightest. You will obviously call me naive and I am sure all the hindoos on this site will jump all over this....but you must hold them to the law that they themselves espouse since that is what is actually being promoted there and what is being loosely applied...although with great misunderstandings. This thing has to be fought and contained by a powerful Islamic force which is seen as morally righteous in theirs, and in our public's eyes....not a force of liars and sell-outs who serve foreigners and lie. You cannot fight a popular insurgency of this sort with force....you must win hearts and minds and ideology is the way to do that. A foreign ideology will fail....it has to be Islam...otherwise the bayghayrat secular class can fight these peopel till kingdom come and nothing will change.

Now they blow up 20 Pakistan service men on a routine patrol and then threaten and WARN the government not to even dare and try and collect their bodies, or there will be full-fledged fighting across the sector. So how do you think these people should be dealt with?
(Again I am not asking because i wish to blow holes into your plan or anything, but simply because I am curious. I will not be making any comments of my own if you choose to answer.)

I have to ask you...who is THEY? You cannot claim that there is one monolithic movement that is doing this. If some people in a remote village kill Pakistan army men...how do you know for sure that this is the same Tehreek that is fighting in XYZ territory? There have been countless bombing raids throughout this region and it would be shocking if there wasn't popular anger against the GoP and "coalition". Maybe a relative of the 80 women and children who died in GoP bombing of Wana did it without any influence by Taliban? And if you disagree with this...then you agree that there is one popular monolithic movement. Either way...brute and blind force is not the answer....one has to see the root causes and establish a transparent justice.....this can be backed by a just use of force.

 

[niaz]

I am anti Taliban and anti mullah. I believe that Taliban are a curse; they are giving a peaceful religion a bad name thus I have no sympathy for them. On the other hand many members such as Hon Zyxius seem to have soft spot for them; I have no problem with that.

One thing however I can’t understand; why the two sided policy. It is alright for Taliban to kidnap Pakistanis including soldiers and diplomats and kill security personnel; nevertheless it is blue murder when US does it to them. Number of times I have seen mention that GOP has kidnapped people (Most of these people were terrorists and IMO deserved it) but not a single mention of killing of Pak soldiers and many civilians by suicide bombers and kidnapping of PA solders and exchanging the same for extremist leaders. This is hypocrisy in the extreme. A man killed or kidnapped is equally bad whether by Taliban or Pak security forces.

Taliban are trying to emulate the Wahabi movement. Wahabis were not fighting unbelievers but the Turkish Khalifa until this evil was put to an end by Mohammed Ali Pasha in 1813. Wahabis actively helped the non believers (English) in defeating Muslim Ottomans and succeeded only after Arabia was wrested from Turks; a matter conveniently ignored by the Wahabi supporters. Taliban want to take over Pakistan in a similar way; they have no hesitation in killing whosoever opposes them.

It is a historical fact that mullahs were against Pakistan. Liberal leaders such as Sir Syed Ahmad Khan were called 'Mulhid' and the Quaid as Kafir Azam by the same bigots who are now Taliban supporters. IMO the existence of Pakistan as we know it is on stake here. It is said that all is fair in love and war and I would support any action by Pakistan security forces to eliminate this evil.

 

[JK!]

I very much agree with Niaz's post above.

What active steps will the GoP take if the situation contiues to escalate?

 

[Zyxius]

On the other hand many members such as Hon Zyxius seem to have soft spot for them; I have no problem with that.

Its not that I have a soft spot for the "Taliban"...I feel that these are poor and uneducated people who are being exploited and killed and there is a better way out of this mess.

One thing however I can’t understand; why the two sided policy. It is alright for Taliban to kidnap Pakistanis including soldiers and diplomats and kill security personnel; nevertheless it is blue murder when US does it to them. Number of times I have seen mention that GOP has kidnapped people (Most of these people were terrorists and IMO deserved it) but not a single mention of killing of Pak soldiers and many civilians by suicide bombers and kidnapping of PA solders and exchanging the same for extremist leaders. This is hypocrisy in the extreme.

I never said it is alright for anyone to kidnap or kill anyone and I dont htink anyone is making that point. And also....you say "MOST of these people were terrorists and IMO deserved it". So you agree that people have been kidnapped and some of those people did not deserve it. Murder, kidnapping, and torture are wrong no matter who does it.

A man killed or kidnapped is equally bad whether by Taliban or Pak security forces.

exactly! When the GoP is supposed to be upholding the law and they start doing what the criminals are doing, then they are no longer law givers but law breakers and it is a very slippery slope.

I am anti Taliban and anti mullah.

These are just emotionally charged labels that don't mean much in reality. It is just fashionable to say this nowadays...but you will notice that both of these terms are too broad and undefined.

I believe that Taliban are a curse; they are giving a peaceful religion a bad name thus I have no sympathy for them.

Please note what a "Taliban" is and be specific as to whom you are referring to.

Taliban are trying to emulate the Wahabi movement. Wahabis were not fighting unbelievers but the Turkish Khalifa until this evil was put to an end by Mohammed Ali Pasha in 1813. Wahabis actively helped the non believers (English) in defeating Muslim Ottomans and succeeded only after Arabia was wrested from Turks; a matter conveniently ignored by the Wahabi supporters. Taliban want to take over Pakistan in a similar way; they have no hesitation in killing whosoever opposes them.

WOW...what a leap. You may want to know that Wahabi is a meaningless term just like Mohammadanism. The circumstances you are referring to are far more complex than your 5 lines have been able to explain and that actually has absolutely NO RELEVANCE to these Taliban on our borders who probably don't even know who Shaykh Fawzaan or Abdul Wahab are. Lets keep our feet on the ground shall we?

It is a historical fact that mullahs were against Pakistan. Liberal leaders such as Sir Syed Ahmad Khan were called 'Mulhid' and the Quaid as Kafir Azam by the same bigots who are now Taliban supporters. IMO the existence of Pakistan as we know it is on stake here. It is said that all is fair in love and war and I would support any action by Pakistan security forces to eliminate this evil.

I dont know how you are dragging this in here....but as with all groups you will have a divergence of opinions. Are you going to curse everyone who holds a different point of view? There were just as many Muslims who staunchly supported Pakistan so really this point can be discussed on another thread where it is relevant.


Finally....


Ok lets look at this another way. Lets see who all the word "Taliban" is being applied to:

1. Talib means student. Anyone who is a student is essentially a Taliban. These people are just students, and some of them may also be fighting….but that is not representative of ALL people in this group.
a. Within this, you have those who study are ordinary schools
b. Then you have those who study in Madrassas
2. (Afghan) Taliban are those who were part of or supporters of the former Taliban government. They are fighting a foreign occupation by Americans and NATO. The majority of them do not have anything to do with what's happening in Pakistan.
3. Tehreek-i-Taliban (Pakistan) is apparently a new group within Pakistan. These people have been engaged in acts of violence against the state in Pakistan. However, since they had never actually taken up arms against Pakistan before, many feel that it is because of US-Pakistan bombing of their areas and incidents such as Wana where 80 women and children were killed as "collateral damage". This is a popular movement, as can be confirmed by the number of people involved in this. Some believe that these people intend to establish a "theocratic" throughout Pakistan, some say that they want that only for their neighborhood, while some others say that they want a loose implementation of that in their areas and do not want to be bothered by army and Americans.
4. Any dude with a beard who is poor and comes from the border areas who happens to use violence or gain the spotlight in a negative way is branded with the label "Taliban". Some of these people may actually have engaged in acts of violence either out of revenge for "collateral damage"…or just because they are criminals. However, there is no surety that ALL these people are Taliban and it is very convenient to label them as "Taliban" for the authorities if they intend to skip the due process and just fire away.
5. I'm sure if we actually thought about it…there would be plenty of groups that are just getting tossed into this big "Taliban" label.


To just haphazardly throw around this Taliban label along with the right to do renditions, bomb and kill "Taliban"..this is a recipe for tyranny and injustice. Please specify which Taliban you are saying are 'ok to be killed' and do not deserve due process…not that you used those exact words.

Supposing you happen to be a Pashtun who has a beard and lives in Karachi …..you happened to be wandering around Karachi and the police or Intelligence Bureau pick you up because you look like someone who they saw on a youtube video standing next to Abdullah Mehsud. All it will take is for them to call you a Taliban and you lose your rights like the "enemy combatants" of Guantanamo and whisked away for good. What would there be to protect you from something like this?