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Secularism In India

Actually first we need to determine on part of Muslims if they desire secularism or not? If not, then Indian Muslims should join hands with Pakistan and declare a war on Hindus and rest of non-muslims to carve out another Pakistan out of remaining India. I think in some sense the war is already on in the form of terror attacks. I will not be surprised if we have another pakistan in next 50-100 years. On the other hand, I actually can not imagine a positive answer to this question from Muslims when I look at the societies like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. But then I get confused when I see a few muslims living in west and other non-muslim countries actually liking the idea of secularism and living peacefully with people of other religion.

It looks like Muslims start out as secular to gain entry into non-muslim world and then gain strength in numbers and then show their true non-secular colors. I think it is an excellent strategy to conquer the world.

Its good to see that Europe is waking up to this dangerous game while there is still time. Read article below and the comments.
http://blog.dawn.com:91/dblog/2009/08/18/islamophobia-in-europe/

If Europe fails, we can expect few more smaller Pakistans pop up in Europe too.

That clearly somesup what I would call a closet-Islamaphobic thinking. Even though you might hear fringe groups espousing "muslims will conquer the world" it does not mean the entire muslim population of 1B+ are actively working in some sort of conspiracy to take over. Thats just the same as Zaid Hamid saying that there is worldwise Hindu-Zionist conspiracy against Islam. Wakeup and clear your head.

Let me remind you that even though muslim countries might be averse to call themselves "secular" they do provide freedom of religion which is the most important thing for a secular society in my opinion. Indonesia, Maylasia, Jordan, Syria are all examples. Algeria provides subsidies and non-interference to orthodox Jewish schools (jewish madrassas?). Iran provides similar facilities for its minority jewish communit inspite of being vehemently anti-Israel. Bahrain, UAE have churches and temples and allow freedom of religion.

The problem is that many people (including muslims) themselves don't know what secular means. If secular means no religion for example the Chinese model where you have to profess to be an atheist to be party member, or less extreme case of Turkey which allows freedom of religion but where muslim girls are not allowed to wear head scarfs in public institutions. Anotehr example is the French model, where sikhs students arnt allowed to wear turbans to school. Then this model is unacceptable, not only for muslims but any religious minded person would be against it.

On the other hand if have the Indian, UK or American model of secularism where although the state itself is religion blind in terms of justice, law and order and day-to-day dealings but everyone is free to profess and follow their religion openly. An example is Maylasia where although Islamic courts are applicable to muslims, non-muslims liek Hindus and Chirtians have their own law courts for family matters simialr to India. The governmetn even provides subsidies for temple repairs and consturction to Hindus there.

Hence in these type of countries you see sikhs wearing their turbans, muslims wearing headscarfs or skull caps, jews wearing their skullcaps and sporting long beards.

All this is NOT regulated by the state and if someone abuses anyone because of their "looks" they are prosecuted by law. Ofcourse you might have some exceptions here and there where insanity prevails, but consideration is given to religious sentiments where they make sense.


This is infact where the Islamic form of government would fall into, particularlly if you look at the pacts and treaties that were signed by the Prophet Muhammed (SAW) with non-muslims as well and with later muslim rulers. And many muslim countries follow the same principles without calling themselves "secular". Ofcourse they are not perfect, and lots of improvement is needed, but the situation is not as bad as you make it out to be. Unless ofcourse you have been reading Organiser or Saamna.


The problem is that in some muslim countries including Pakistan, the word secular is associated with the Chinese or Turkish style instead of the Indian/Maylasian/American style which is closer to Islamic principles. Hence the confusion. That is why you have some Pakistanis vehemently insisting that they are Islamic country not secular, when infact a country that would want to run on Islamic principles would essentially have to be secular. Not in the chinese/french/turkish sense, but in the American/Maylasian/Indian sense of the term.
 
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The problem is that many people (including muslims) themselves don't know what secular means.

-snipped-

On the other hand if have the Indian, UK or American model of secularism where although the state itself is religion blind in terms of justice, law and order and day-to-day dealings but everyone is free to profess and follow their religion openly.
I, kind of agree with EjazR on this. There is indeed a massive misunderstanding of the concept of secularism among common people, particularly so among Pakistani members. Most can’t make a distinction between secularism, as an aspect of governance or state policy and personal prejudices among the members of constituency. Mostly from this inability and sometimes deliberately, they tend to see personal prejudices as state policy.

Anyway, what EjazR is trying to say, is reflected in Prof. Amartya Sen’s writing as well.

…Indian secularism takes a somewhat different form and makes rather different demands from the more austere Western versions, such as the French interpretation of secularism which is supposed to prohibit even personal display of religious symbols or conventions in state institutions at work. Indeed, there are two principal approaches to secularism, focusing respectively on (I) neutrality between different religions, and (2) prohibition of religious associations in state activities. Indian secularism has tended to emphasize neutrality in particular, rather than prohibition in general. - The Argumentative Indian by Prof. Amartya Sen, pg 19-20
 
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sorry to say buddy but your completely outdated, seriously you need to get out of those pink polka dot boxers, they are so not happening...

Thanks for the tip, but old school honesty and simplicity are not bound by some fashion gimmick.

talking about menu cards and secularism with an tadka of hindu extremism?? do you seriously believe an average Indian really knows what's secularism?

It is not about the defenition of term rather the essence of it.

aren't they busy with their work and having kids?? every country has some bad patches, so do we... but does it mean we pull out those pages again and again in the name of secularity and tag them as hindus and muslims rather then Indians?

So should we just sweep the dust under the carpet and wait till the doomsday. Sorry, the problem is in preliminary stages and f not nipped in but, results can be self distructive.

how do we get a secular India unless we tag those people who burnt sabarmati express as criminals rather then muslims?
don't you think instead advocating of vip treatment to minority, we should really try hard to reach those in need irrespective of race & color?

Prey tell me where did I ask for any VIP treatment, just don't doubt a person's integrity and patriotism if he refuses to sing a particular song or belongs to a particular faith.

these communal violence are bound to happen; as they say “Jahan char bartan honge, woh bajenge”... what really matters is how strong our foundations are..

Bartan Khadakne se aawaaz honi chahiye khoon nahi behna chahiye. You are proud of our foundation but what about the structure we are making over it?

"Hindu Muslim Sikh Isai apas main sab bhai bhai"is so not happening, we already divide ourselves before bhai bhai... why not plain simple INDIAN?
so now let's talk "TEACH INDIA" :cheers:

Just plain talk is not what I am for, rather deal with the issues in open and lets play some hardball with those criminals.

Put my answers within the quote in colours.
 
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A agree with a lot of EjazR's balanced views on Madrasas and Islam and its secular and tolerant nature.

That said, it is also true that I am Indian today and not Persian because of Islam. Nothing wrong in itself, but a historical fact nonetheless.

Cheers, Doc
 
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A agree with a lot of EjazR's balanced views on Madrasas and Islam and its secular and tolerant nature.

That said, it is also true that I am Indian today and not Persian because of Islam. Nothing wrong in itself, but a historical fact nonetheless.

Cheers, Doc

Nice one.:)

EjazR has gone a little too far there, I think. The 'more or less' secular nature of Islamic empires, which EjazR talks about ended with the Prophet(SAW). Religion did not stop the next generations of rulers from deviating from that course which means the religion did not insist so much on secular principles. It was the education that the particular rulers had which disciplined them against acting ruthlessly towards other religions.

May the same sense prevail today.
 
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A agree with a lot of EjazR's balanced views on Madrasas and Islam and its secular and tolerant nature.

That said, it is also true that I am Indian today and not Persian because of Islam. Nothing wrong in itself, but a historical fact nonetheless.

Cheers, Doc

So should I blame Hinduism for Gujarat riots? OR blame Judaism for Palestinian situation. Should the Jews blame Catholics for the Holocaust? I am surprised at your simplistic approach to this.

Lets not get carried away. Ofcourse there have been good and bad muslim rulers (like any other religion). But Jews from Europe would actually migrate to muslim lands to escape Christian persecution. Even Indian muslim rulers like Babar, Akbar, Jahangir and Aurangzeb actually passed selective cow slaughter ban rules to accommodate Jain, Buddhist and Hindu sentiments.
I would rather say that Arab Imperialism was part of the reason for the decline of Zorastrians, the deadly blow actually came from the Mongol invasions into Khurasan(present day eastern Iran and Afghanistan) It was Chengiz Khan and his hordes (from the 11th to 13th centuries) that were actually responsible for massive killings of not only Muslims, but Buddhists, Hindus and Parsees. But even that is besides the point.

Sure these Arab rulers were muslims but they were certainly not following Islamic principles.
What I am saying is that we should not be afraid of people being religious if they so choose to be. A good Hindu or a good muslim will automatically be a good citizen if he follows the true spirit of their religion. Of course, there is need to reinterpret Islamic principles as time changes, and the traditional religious schools will have to deal with that. No one is denying this. There is also major problem of extremism among Muslims, particularly in the Arab world beginning in the 70s.

@rubyjackass
Whatever I have quoted about madrassas in India or secularism are not my own musings on this matter. You can point out anything from my post which you think is "too far". This is based on information booklets and decrees and explanations from Indian Islamic seminaries and universities. I personally think that Indian ulema are in a unique position to reach out to the muslims around the world particularly arabs to lead them away from extremism and back to the true spirit of Islam. Some of these seminaries are highly respected and maybe they can help in leading Arab countries towards democratic form of government.
 
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actually Indian secularism is not the western secularism or the dictionary secularism in execution.
loosely...secularism is the practice of not promoting any particular religion...and having a uniform civil code for the entire population.
in india...those who talk of a uniform civil code are judged as non-secular and those who talk oh separate hindu-muslim civil codes are judged as secular.
 
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That clearly somesup what I would call a closet-Islamaphobic thinking. Even though you might hear fringe groups espousing "muslims will conquer the world" it does not mean the entire muslim population of 1B+ are actively working in some sort of conspiracy to take over. Thats just the same as Zaid Hamid saying that there is worldwise Hindu-Zionist conspiracy against Islam. Wakeup and clear your head.

Let me remind you that even though muslim countries might be averse to call themselves "secular" they do provide freedom of religion which is the most important thing for a secular society in my opinion. Indonesia, Maylasia, Jordan, Syria are all examples. Algeria provides subsidies and non-interference to orthodox Jewish schools (jewish madrassas?). Iran provides similar facilities for its minority jewish communit inspite of being vehemently anti-Israel. Bahrain, UAE have churches and temples and allow freedom of religion.

The problem is that many people (including muslims) themselves don't know what secular means. If secular means no religion for example the Chinese model where you have to profess to be an atheist to be party member, or less extreme case of Turkey which allows freedom of religion but where muslim girls are not allowed to wear head scarfs in public institutions. Anotehr example is the French model, where sikhs students arnt allowed to wear turbans to school. Then this model is unacceptable, not only for muslims but any religious minded person would be against it.

On the other hand if have the Indian, UK or American model of secularism where although the state itself is religion blind in terms of justice, law and order and day-to-day dealings but everyone is free to profess and follow their religion openly. An example is Maylasia where although Islamic courts are applicable to muslims, non-muslims liek Hindus and Chirtians have their own law courts for family matters simialr to India. The governmetn even provides subsidies for temple repairs and consturction to Hindus there.

Hence in these type of countries you see sikhs wearing their turbans, muslims wearing headscarfs or skull caps, jews wearing their skullcaps and sporting long beards.

All this is NOT regulated by the state and if someone abuses anyone because of their "looks" they are prosecuted by law. Ofcourse you might have some exceptions here and there where insanity prevails, but consideration is given to religious sentiments where they make sense.


This is infact where the Islamic form of government would fall into, particularlly if you look at the pacts and treaties that were signed by the Prophet Muhammed (SAW) with non-muslims as well and with later muslim rulers. And many muslim countries follow the same principles without calling themselves "secular". Ofcourse they are not perfect, and lots of improvement is needed, but the situation is not as bad as you make it out to be. Unless ofcourse you have been reading Organiser or Saamna.


The problem is that in some muslim countries including Pakistan, the word secular is associated with the Chinese or Turkish style instead of the Indian/Maylasian/American style which is closer to Islamic principles. Hence the confusion. That is why you have some Pakistanis vehemently insisting that they are Islamic country not secular, when infact a country that would want to run on Islamic principles would essentially have to be secular. Not in the chinese/french/turkish sense, but in the American/Maylasian/Indian sense of the term.

So you mean to say that Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are not following the Islamic principles but India / USA / Malaysia are or in other words India/USA are more Islamic than Pakistan/Saudi. WOW!! I don't think other Muslims will agree with this viewpoint.
 
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no one can deny that it is the hinduism that binds and sticks the loosening social order of india together, can india this gigantic country be formed without the reign of hindu religion, or will it be separated into different religious clan regions? how much secular can a country be since its foundation is based on religion??
 
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no one can deny that it is the hinduism that binds and sticks the loosening social order of india together, can india this gigantic country be formed without the reign of hindu religion, or will it be separated into different religious clan regions? how much secular can a country be since its foundation is based on religion??

Your reasoning is flawed. India was not founded based on hinduism. It is so that people living that part of the world mostly happen to be hindus. Applying your logic, America/UK then has a religious foundation too, in christanity.

You are right when you say that religion binds people. Same way Christanity binds Americans or for that matter europeans but in reality it is more than religion. When people live together, they fight but out that process eventually are able to find common grounds to live peacefully, atleast for some time before the differences come back or new ones take birth. Now these common grounds can be so many things - color of skin, food, culture, religion, language etc. etc.

After fighting two world wars, same people now are living in peace atleast for past half century. Point is it is human nature to fight and Indians or South Asians or Asians for that matter are no different. So, hinduism or no hinduism, people will fight and live peacefully in cycles.

Although, I will have to agree that some societies are able to maintain peace longer than others.
 
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@ EjazR ..... firstly brother, as a fellow Indian let me assure you that I have nothing against either Muslims or Islam. Some of my closest chaddi yaars over the years have been muslim, and we are close enough to discuss religion and politics openly without any offense implied or taken. Having said that, I realise that its different in the more impersonal environs of the Net, where one does not really know one another at a personal level and the written word can and often is misconstrued.

Coming to your argument, Zoroastrianism had been the predominant religion of the people in Persia and large areas of Asia Minor for centuries, long before the birth of Islam. You do know that we are considered to be the oldest surviving religion in the world today right? Older than even Hinduism, with whom we share a common Aryan descent. It was the Arabs who imposed Islam on to the Persians by force, causing the Zoroastrians to finally flee with our holy fire and land on the shores of India.

Even today ask any modern Irani (muslim or otherwise) what he thinks of Arabs and their culture and the sort of Islam shoved down their throat over the centuries and rekindled by the hardliner khomenis there in recent times, and you will realise truly that blood ties of the motherland, common racial origins, culture, and civilisation are far stronger and primal unifying forces than religion.

Which is why India stays together and progresses, while Pakistan is well .... Pakistan.

Cheers, Doc
 
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Agreed vsdoc,that is why I was just clarifying that its the Arab imperialistic attitude, and now the Khomeni hardliner attitude which is the problem. Not the religion itself.

Speaking in broader terms, its mixing politics with Islam which is an anthaema to me that is the issue. The repurcussions of mixing religion with politics is the basis of fascist and extremist groups and this applies to any religion.
 
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So you mean to say that Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are not following the Islamic principles but India / USA / Malaysia are or in other words India/USA are more Islamic than Pakistan/Saudi. WOW!! I don't think other Muslims will agree with this viewpoint.

The point I was making was most of these muslim countries consider secular meaning the French/Turkish style. For them, they wrongly see as there is no other option other than it meaning we are atheist or agnostic. But they do adhere to principles of secularism to some extent as in being religion blind when it comes to state policies for example to socio-economic grounds, freedom of religious practices and education e.t.c.

I gave you the examples of Malaysia, even in Saudi Arabia, large number of non-muslim expats come and work and get payed sometimes even more than muslim counterparts. In Iran where small non-muslim populations do exist, they have seats reserved in the parliament to represent the Jewish, Chritians and Zorastrian communities. Even in Pakistan, they have reserved seats for Hindus and Sikhs in the parliament and I beleive there are even Hindu majority districts in some parts of Sindh.

Are they perfect, ofcourse not. They still have a long way to go and declaring themselves secular would be a step in the right direction. I still feel that these countries will have to educate their constituencies on what secular means so that they understand the difference between the textbook definition and practice.

And there are many muslims who would agree when I say that many principles that America follows such as social security, freedom of speech, freedom to practice religion, no discrimination except on merit e.t.c are infact close to Islamic principles of governance that are not followed in Saudi. Many muslims would also agree that Saudi Arabia hence does not follow Islamic principles as it violates to a big degree.Saudi Arabia has some tribal customs as laws such as being the only country in the world where women can't drive, but there is not Islamic basis for it. Even though there is a large section of Saudis both male and female who oppose this.

The founding fathers of US were devout puritanical Christians, infact the migrants to the US were so devout that they were forcefully moved to the US from Britain for their extremist views. But still they choose to declare US as a secular state. However, they are still more religious on a whole than their European counterparts. Things like this needs to be explained and muslim intellegenstia and forward looking ulema have a lot of work cut out for them in this regard.
 
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Hi Ejaz,

I am sorry I do not see merit in your argument about separating followers from the religion per se.

No religion is bad. All preach the same thing. We all worship the Supreme in our own ways and call Him different names. No religion started out as being intolerant. We place our Prophets at a level above mere mortals. But it is a fact that all religions evolve and are carried forward by mortal men. Somewhere along the way the original teachings get interpreted differerently for a variety of reasons. And the end result is in no way close to what the religion started out as.

So we need to see as educated people that while we worship God in different ways, and say that our Holy Books were given to us directly by God though his Prophet/s, the fact remains that today Religion is what we human mortal men make of it.

A religion is thus judged by its teachings and the behavior of its followers. And over time some religions get the reputation of being intolerant because of the deeds of their followers. Coz as I said, no religion starts out as being intolerant. Every religion needs to grow by spreading the holy word, but spreading it peacefully and believing in voluntary choice.

The day force replaces peace, and the eys and ears close to ideas different from yours as heretical, that is the day the religion due to the actions of its followers starts getting a bad name.

So I disagree that Zoroastrianism was "cleansed" from the whole of Persia and Asia Minor simply by Arab bedouins out for their imperial aspirations. Cause if that was the case, then they would have invaded, conquered, and settled in the region without attempting to wipe out every trace of the existing religion in that part of the world ..... in effect, the largest and earliest genocide the world ever saw.

It was a battle of Faiths pure and simple ...... of Islam against the so-called pagan Fire-worshippers ..... Islam won, Zoroastrianism lost, and Islam saw no place for Zoroastrianism to coexist. Otherwise how do you explain entire generations forcibly converted or simply wiped out, Fire Temples razed to the ground, and an entire people migrating by sea to an alien land leaving their own of centuries behind them in order to save their religion from complete extinction?

Sorry buddy, but I do not buy your argument. The Arabs may have been the sword, but the hand that held the sword was what Islam had become by then.

Every Irani and Iraqi muslim today has Zoroastrian blood in him, just like every South-Asian muslim (Indian, Pakistani or Bangladeshi) today has Hindu blood in him.

Cheers, Doc
 
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