Secularism In India

[vsdoc]

One concept I just dont get is the madrasa concept.

I mean we Parsis also have once a week (or month) religious classes where our kids are taught the tenets of our religion.

But we go to regular schools. Then we go to regular colleges. Then we enter the real world and compete for jobs.

Whats the whole concept of the entire education of a child being religious (and often negative and separatist) indoctrination?

How does this prepare him for the real world ahead? How is he going to contribute to the society he lives in and make an honest living?

Or are all the madrasa pass outs going to become religious teachers?

But then, over a a few generations, who are they going to teach? There will be only teachers and no students!

I just dont get it ...... most Indians dont.

We know the answers of course. But as a secular country we dont butt in.

Maybe some of my Pakistani brothers (and sisters) can help out here .....

Cheers, Doc

 

[garibnawaz]

I have been on this forum for a while, since I am not a defence expert, I try to learn more and write less. Most of my posts are on political and social aspect rather than on defence, and while going through these sections, I have come to realize the high degree of polarization on social and political issues among Indian and Pakistani posters. Most criticized (and correctly too) are the secular credentials of India. From the territory under British rule, India has emerged as the only constitutionally secular country which has a majority of Hindu Populations, and Hindus, we are taught are the most tolerant and naturally secular people.

All seems so good on paper, infact too good to be true. Constitutionally every segment has their respective rights and entitled to similar benefits, but it’s the ground reality that bites. I am a patriotic Indian, and I feel it is my duty to accept the realities of our society. We are told by Pakistani members about no. of Muslims in Army, about No. of Muslim Prime Ministers etc. To counter this Indians post some survey showing improvement in the Living standards of muslim, Azim Premzi, Kalam, any number of bollywood personalities etc. Statistics I believe are not the right tool to measure the degree of secularism. As it is wisely said Statistics are like mini skirts, they reveal more than they conceal, but they conceal the most important parts. I am more concerned about the increasing number of Muslim migration to Muslim dominated neighborhood than decreasing number of Muslims in Army.

I would dare any red blooded Indian to put a hand on his heart and say that in India Muslims have the same social and economical position as Hindus or Sikhs. They do not. Blunt and harsh as it may be, but that is the truth. And the real danger to secularism is not from a small 5-8% segment of right wing Hindu extremists but from another maybe 30-40% who are constantly skeptical about fellow Indian's intentions because of his/her religion. They will hail Azharuddin when he produces consecutive centuries, but won't take a second to term him as a traitor when he fails against Pakistan.

To me the epitome of lowering of secular standards recently is not Gujrat. Gujrat is the end product of a process. The process started when we suddenly stopped seeing signs of "Hindu Muslim Sikh Isai apas main sab bhai bhai" behind every truck, auto and tea stalls. It stated getting replaced by "Hindustan main rehna hai to Vande Matram Kehna Hoga". We stopped showing Titles of the movie in Urdu. We started calling Ghazal as Gajal. Urdu was marginalized. Mughlai Dishes in Menu card turned into Punjabi. These things added up. Some started asking for proof of patriotism in Muslims as if by some divine grace they have the authority to provide another Indian a right to living in his own country. Every time a doubt is raised over patriotism of a Muslim, the secular belief takes a blow. I agree completely with Jaswant Singh when he says: At times Muslims are treated as Aliens. Yes Babri Masjid, Blue Star and Gujrat are such blots on Indian history that can never be wiped out and realization that the perpetrators of such ghastly acts are still roaming free on street makes me hang my head in shame.

Another issue I have is with poster comparing treatment of minorities in India with Minorities in Pakistan. This is completely unjustified as Pakistan is a declared Islamic Republic and India is constitutionally secular.

On the other hand - Is it all as evil as few Pakistani posters make it sound? Is their any state sponsored religious cleansing happening? Are Muslims treated as second rate citizens and deprived of opportunity? Are they bound to live in ghettos and not allowed residence in posh localities? Are they economically worse than Dalits? Are Hindus a sworn enemy of Muslims? Answer is an Emphatic - NO.

Approach of Hindus towards Muslims may be skeptical but is not generally hostile. Most of the Violence and crimes in Riots are not acts of extremely religious Hindus but of opportunist criminals who would have taken advantage of the situation regardless of victim’s religious background. Our justice system is more to blame for not punishing these criminals than our social fabric. Lack of Muslims in Public services is because of reliance on Madarsa system rather than regular school. Economic backwardness is more because of the geographic distribution of Muslim population than religious bias.

The reality is somewhere between the two extremes painted by Indian and Pakistani posters. It is secular and communal at the same time. To my mind, the defining image of India is the crowd, and a crowd is by its very nature superabundant, heterogeneous, many things at once.

1 word

Bullshit.

GB

 

[toxic_pus]

I am least apologetic about situation in India. I see no reason to be so. Gujrat as I mentioned is not any turning point or representation of hatred, As i mentioned it was an end result of a build-up and in the end some petty criminals took advantage of the situation.

If Gujrat incident is taken on one extreme of this scale then West Bengal would be the other extreme. Most of the Indians lie somwhere inbetween. If Gujrat does not represent whole of India then neither does West Bengal.

The following quote by Jana, is exactly what I feared, your introspection will be perceived as.

If angor khatay hotay tau aj Indian to secular India prove karany ka lia itni maghaz mari na karni parti pyaray

No matter how much you defend yourself by saying that you are 'least apologetic' about secular disposition of India and Indians, your post reverberates with such apologetic undertones.

 

[Khajur]

If angor khatay hotay tau aj Indian to secular India prove karany ka lia itni maghaz mari na karni parti pyaray

But the problem is Indian Muslims are not safer, richer and better educated.

I would repeat myself... I think its completely unjustified to question india's secularism when pakistanis dont live in secular society in pakistan themselves.

Its like china questioning the issues about personal freedom in USA...deeply ironical i must say to begin with.

And treating ur minorites equally in pakistan and giving them same equal legal status is two completely separate things.If they were same , pakistan would have been a secular state long before today. well before that i guess it must strengthen its democracy first.

U should repharse ur comment & ask an indian muslim whether he feels safer, richer and better educated than an avg pakistani muslim??

 

[Spring Onion]

I would repeat myself... I think its completely unjustified to question india's secularism when pakistanis dont live in secular society in pakistan themselves.

Its like china questioning the issues about personal freedom in USA...deeply ironical i must say to begin with.

And treating ur minorites equally in pakistan and giving them same equal legal status is two completely separate things.If they were same , pakistan would have been a secular state long before today. well before that i guess it must strengthen its democracy first.

U should repharse ur comment & ask an indian muslim whether he feels safer, richer and better educated than an avg pakistani muslim??

The question of double standard viz viz secularism can only be asked from those countries who claim to be secular. As skeptic stated in his thread we are not a secular state so your comparing us regarding secularism is wrong.

lolzz and Indian Muslims have already been stated by media how much they feel safer richer or educated.

 

[Khajur]

The question of double standard viz viz secularism can only be asked from those countries who claim to be secular. As skeptic stated in his thread we are not a secular state so your comparing us regarding secularism is wrong.

lolzz and Indian Muslims have already been stated by media how much they feel safer richer or educated.

Well that wierd logic...but ppl do sometimes think in this way.

See,if u are not secular...u can easlily question others secular credentials.

if u are not much democratic...then u can ofcourse question others democratic credentials.

Similarly say if are not honest urself...u easily inclined to doubt other ppl's honesty.

Now,the thing is one tends to judge the world on basis of his personal ethos...gives a sense of comfort.

 

[Spring Onion]

Well that wierd logic...but ppl do sometimes think in this way.

See,if u are not secular...u can easlily question others secular credentials.

if u are not much democratic...then u can ofcourse question others democratic credentials.

Similarly say if are not honest urself...u easily inclined to doubt other ppl's honesty.

Now,the thing is one tends to judge the world on basis of his personal ethos...gives a sense of comfort.

i wonder if you deny Mr Gandhi too .

"Mahatma Gandhi once said, "India will be known the way it treats its minority". If Gandhi would have been alive today he would certainly have hung his head in shame after seeing his dream of Hindu-Muslim-Sikh unity being tethered by some Hindu fanatics who are hell bent to spread the communal animosity. It
has been proved time and again that Indian State has failed to protect its minorities. West Bengal riots, Delhi riots, 1984 Sikh
riots, Babri Masjid demolition, Baghalpur riots, Gujarat holocaust and in a span of less than 60 years have exposed the underbelly of Indian secularism. "

 

[EjazR]

One concept I just dont get is the madrasa concept.

I mean we Parsis also have once a week (or month) religious classes where our kids are taught the tenets of our religion.

But we go to regular schools. Then we go to regular colleges. Then we enter the real world and compete for jobs.

Whats the whole concept of the entire education of a child being religious (and often negative and separatist) indoctrination?

How does this prepare him for the real world ahead? How is he going to contribute to the society he lives in and make an honest living?

Or are all the madrasa pass outs going to become religious teachers?

But then, over a a few generations, who are they going to teach? There will be only teachers and no students!

I just dont get it ...... most Indians dont.

We know the answers of course. But as a secular country we dont butt in.

Maybe some of my Pakistani brothers (and sisters) can help out here .....

Cheers, Doc

I can only speak for Indian madrassahs and muslims here.

First of all it is a myth that most muslims children all study in madrassas. As the sachar report showed, its less than 3% of all school going children. And that too because there are no other forms of education available. The overwhelming majority of muslims - even poor muslims would prefer regular schools like any other person. What the government can do is make regular schools where there none in the area, this would help not only muslims but non-muslims living in that area as well.

Now focusing on madrassa education itself, are Indian madrassa indoctrinating children to be anti-national or sepratist? The BJP when they were in power wanted to present a white paper on "anti-national" activities there, but after six years of investigation there was nothing. They also had claimed of petro-funds coming in but all they could find was that major majority of the fund donated are local charity contributions. Of course you don't need much money when you cater for only 3% of the student population.

Unfortunately there has been bad press that madrassa are hotbed of militancy and blows issues out of proportion because of the madrassa situation in Pakistan. Ofcourse there are important issues that need reform, and many madrassas were doing this reform since the 80s and 90s to make education more relevant. They are taught English, Math and other such subjects.

Although most graduates tend up being religious scholars, not all do. Again we are talking about 3% of the muslim student population.

A significant percentage take up vocational training (provided by madrassas) and get employed in regular jobs or businesses and some even compete for competitive exams like Union Public Services (and pass) to become bureaucrats and contribute to society. Others provide an active platform to do ijtihad (re-interpret) Islamic law based on current times. Here is a blog run by some madrassa alumni for example MADRASA REFORMS IN INDIA

But to say that madrassas encourage separatism is just outright lies. Infact, they have played an important role in providing theological basis for Indian nationalism among muslims, have consistently fought propaganda by militants explaing theologically that Jihad does NOT apply to India or Kashmir. They had condemned Taliban style Islam back in 99 when no one even knew about them. Thus far from encouraging separatism, they have played an important role in defense of their country. And this is not counting their role in the freedom struggle. So rather than just "tolerate" madrasas because we are secular, I think they should be commended for doing an important service to the India and muslims at large.

Most major madrassa have websites (e.g. deoband and nadwa tul uloom) where you can see these things mentioned there

Fear of the unknown is what plaguing our society. Right-wing organisations thrive on creating this fear so that they can justify their viewpoint.
The mess created by hijacking of madrassas by the Taliban and vested interests on the Afghan border regions has provided an opportunity to sensationalize the matter just because they call themselves madrassa graduates or say that they are affliated to deoband, even though they do not accept any decrees or rulings from the original deoband university in India. I suggest you visit your local madrassa if you know where it is and see what they do.

This doesn't mean that ALL madarassas are good, or they don't need reform. Remember these institutions just represent education of just 3% of the muslim population. Hopefully that has clarified some doubts on madrasa education, at least in India.

 

[Khajur]

i wonder if you deny Mr Gandhi too .

"Mahatma Gandhi once said, "India will be known the way it treats its minority". If Gandhi would have been alive today he would certainly have hung his head in shame after seeing his dream of Hindu-Muslim-Sikh unity being tethered by some Hindu fanatics who are hell bent to spread the communal animosity. It
has been proved time and again that Indian State has failed to protect its minorities. West Bengal riots, Delhi riots, 1984 Sikh
riots, Babri Masjid demolition, Baghalpur riots, Gujarat holocaust and in a span of less than 60 years have exposed the underbelly of Indian secularism. "

dear jana,

Creation of pakistan is the major cause of animosity and deficit of trust between hindus and muslims of the sub continent.

Also the role pakistan and pak based terrorists groups through ISI play in kashmir and else where in india...its this known stratergy of pakistan to create communal disharmony in india to destabilize it makes the position of indian muslim far more untenable.So u now who play the spoil sport when it comes to indian hindu and muslims relations.

.

 

[Skeptic]

First of all india is a constitutionally secular contry ...it means GOI and all branches of the Constitution must adhere to secularism while conducting their constitutinal dutie .

It never asks indian citizens be it hindu/muslim/sikh to act in a secular manner in their personal capacities.No country in the world does that either.

Where did I mention that India is not a constitutionally secular country. All I mentioned that since we feel so proud of the Secular tag, lets address to the issues which are putting a blemish on that tag.

And yes ofcourse hindus are the most tolerant and naturally secular people.I dont think any other country in the world where majority section people agreed to insert the word "secular"inserted in the Constitution framwork,so unique in that sense.

I would rate that statement as loaded with religious bias. I have read that every secular county across the world has atleast one majority segment of population of a particular religion. And since you are comparing, tak example of Turkey, which is secular and has a non hindu single religion majority

Isnt it true that there are muslims citizens like Azim Premzi, Kalam,Shahrukh Khan, many muslim film stars and muslim sports men have achieved the success irrespective of their religion solely based the talent and hardwork.It also simply signifies that a minority muslim notion dont create any sort of hinderance in leading a successful life in a hindu majority india.Isnt that showcase a truely secular country.

My concern is more with the deep rooted prjudice and intolerance and that is the root cause of problem. A simple example - How many houses have a saperate cup for their kaamwalis to drink from? my guess is somwhere around 70% (obviously from households that can afford a maid). I faced the problem myself, when I setteled in Delhi, my own nani(meternal grandmother) refused to stay at my place till I send my muslim Kaamwali on leave (Who was bagladeshi as well)

" I am more concerned about the increasing number of Muslim migration to Muslim dominated neighborhood than decreasing number of Muslims in Army. "

Whats so surprising in it??
It comes down to comfort lavel rather than Xenophobia where people prefer to live among their own kind...be in the sense of religion or region.

I dont think we have only muslim ghettos as there are Gujarati colonies,Bengali society,South indian apartments ,army societies many such ghettos of many different hues.In fact what about china towns or hindu or muslim dominated areas of very secular societies like London or NewYork??

Agreed, but would you deny that the trend has picked up lately.

" They will hail Azharuddin when he produces consecutive centuries, but won't take a second to term him as a traitor when he fails against Pakistan "

It has more to do with personal prejudices based every man insecurities rather than lack of respect for the secular nature of country.Religious or racial profiling is part of every society in some measure e,g trouble faced by Shahrukh Khan in US airport.

U forgot to mention,the same Azharuddin was the captain of indian cricket team and has been married to a hindu and become a MP recently of constituenty where majority ppl are hindus.

Again you are misinterpreting the whole issue. Why is this stigma attached only to Azhar that he was a trator? Why not to Ajay Jadeja / Manoj Prabhakar / Nayan Mongia. Anyways when I last checked - Moradabad had 40-45% muslim population.


"To me the epitome of lowering of secular standards recently is not Gujrat. Gujrat is the end product of a process."


Incidence like Gujarat or sikh riots are worst case scenerios,this is a counry where there is so much crores of people living in poverty,uneducation,social disparity,crime,decades religous terrorism,internal displacement and centuries old oppression majority hindu communities seen in few other places , that its miracle only few thousand ppl got killed riots or sectarian violence in this many decades..

Is that not most senseless to turn some thousands of lives into petty numbers, just because none of them were part of your immidiate family? What made you so heartless.

And regrading the decline of muslim cultural influence, do u expect that we should 've promoted farsi/arabic like the minority muslim rulers that ruled of india.
I am not talking about farsi / arabic but urdu which is one of our national languages. Every national language has improved and has received larger coverage and Urdu, which was not too long ago language of the intellectuals is being abandoned. And Urdu, Mughlai Dishes, slogans are symbolic of the thinning secular fabric and exposing the emerging right wing extremism. And why not be proud "Minority Moughal Rulers" if you can be o proud of most of their architechture.
There are still many positive influence of muslim culture intact...loved and admired by many in india ...where as after many centuries,its the regioanl culture of different indian states getting prominance in their respective states.Minorities are also part that regional revival in each states.
Where did I say that it has died. If it had died, then the anti govt attacks would be internal not external. If you are really so sure, then why do Muslims feel the urge to disown terrorists as not one of them after every terror attack? and why do we not feel the shame that someone accused our fellow countrymen of such crimes?
"This is completely unjustified as Pakistan is a declared Islamic Republic and India is constitutionally secular"

Now that takes the cake.

U cant discuss indian secularism in a vaccum whie dabating it with pakistanis.
Now this is the real reason, you have something to prove to the Pakistanis. The entire objective is to get one fake victory in debate. I am sorry but I am here to grow as an individual and getting cheap one-up is not my agenda. I dont see the requirement to answer each and every troll, if I am sure of what I am saying and my intentions.
Also I think its completely unjustified to question india's secularism when pakistanis dont live in secular society in pakistan themselves.

Its like china questioning the issues about personal freedom in USA...deeply ironical i must say to begin with.
How many times have we discussed China's Economic diparity despite it being communist.

And treating ur minorites equally in pakistan and giving them same equal legal status is two completely separate things.If they were same , pakistan would have been a secular state long before today. well before that i guess it must strengthen its democracy first.


I must conclude this with saying that though we are not a perfect secular society even a perfect democracy,given societal,financial and educational conditions of majority of indians,the reason for this lasting trust and acceptance in secular values lies in the hindu philosophy of universal brotherhood and religious tolerance culture.Thats why ome dont see too much protest about its secular status even from majority hindus.

Why do you have to say that we are not a perfect secular society? What are your reasons for saying so, I mentioned mine.


To conclude, If we all accept that India is not a perfect secular society, then why not discuss the reasons? For we are afraid of some verbal vollies from Pakistani posters? Are we afraid that they might have an upper hand in our next argument? Are these debates really so important? I have been taught to be fair in life, and to be fair, I have to say that (above mentioned) are the ailments of my society and lets work on it to make a change rther than shoving it under the carpet of "though we are not a perfect secular society".

 

[Skeptic]

I can only speak for Indian madrassahs and muslims here.

First of all it is a myth that most muslims children all study in madrassas. As the sachar report showed, its less than 3% of all school going children. And that too because there are no other forms of education available. The overwhelming majority of muslims - even poor muslims would prefer regular schools like any other person. What the government can do is make regular schools where there none in the area, this would help not only muslims but non-muslims living in that area as well.

Now focusing on madrassa education itself, are Indian madrassa indoctrinating children to be anti-national or sepratist? The BJP when they were in power wanted to present a white paper on "anti-national" activities there, but after six years of investigation there was nothing. They also had claimed of petro-funds coming in but all they could find was that major majority of the fund donated are local charity contributions. Of course you don't need much money when you cater for only 3% of the student population.

Unfortunately there has been bad press that madrassa are hotbed of militancy and blows issues out of proportion because of the madrassa situation in Pakistan. Ofcourse there are important issues that need reform, and many madrassas were doing this reform since the 80s and 90s to make education more relevant. They are taught English, Math and other such subjects.

Although most graduates tend up being religious scholars, not all do. Again we are talking about 3% of the muslim student population.

A significant percentage take up vocational training (provided by madrassas) and get employed in regular jobs or businesses and some even compete for competitive exams like Union Public Services (and pass) to become bureaucrats and contribute to society. Others provide an active platform to do ijtihad (re-interpret) Islamic law based on current times. Here is a blog run by some madrassa alumni for example MADRASA REFORMS IN INDIA

But to say that madrassas encourage separatism is just outright lies. Infact, they have played an important role in providing theological basis for Indian nationalism among muslims, have consistently fought propaganda by militants explaing theologically that Jihad does NOT apply to India or Kashmir. They had condemned Taliban style Islam back in 99 when no one even knew about them. Thus far from encouraging separatism, they have played an important role in defense of their country. And this is not counting their role in the freedom struggle. So rather than just "tolerate" madrasas because we are secular, I think they should be commended for doing an important service to the India and muslims at large.

Most major madrassa have websites (e.g. deoband and nadwa tul uloom) where you can see these things mentioned there

Fear of the unknown is what plaguing our society. Right-wing organisations thrive on creating this fear so that they can justify their viewpoint.
The mess created by hijacking of madrassas by the Taliban and vested interests on the Afghan border regions has provided an opportunity to sensationalize the matter just because they call themselves madrassa graduates or say that they are affliated to deoband, even though they do not accept any decrees or rulings from the original deoband university in India. I suggest you visit your local madrassa if you know where it is and see what they do.

This doesn't mean that ALL madarassas are good, or they don't need reform. Remember these institutions just represent education of just 3% of the muslim population. Hopefully that has clarified some doubts on madrasa education, at least in India.

A very informative and balanced post. Thanks, I stand corrected.

 

[Spring Onion]

dear jana,

Creation of pakistan is the major cause of animosity and deficit of trust between hindus and muslims of the sub continent.

Lame excuse to discriminate your own citizens. we are not talking about deficit of trust between Hindus and Muslims of sub-continent but we are talking about deficit of trust in Indian Muslims by Hindus.

If you think the reason is creation of Pakistan even then my dear indian you are committing a grave mistake by doubting the poor loyal Indian Muslims who have opted for India instead of Pakistan.

I think you should have been gratful to these Muslims who stayed back but alas the opposite view had messed up everything.

Also the role pakistan and pak based terrorists groups through ISI play in kashmir and else where in india...its this known stratergy of pakistan to create communal disharmony in india to destabilize it makes the position of indian muslim far more untenable.So u now who play the spoil sport when it comes to indian hindu and muslims relations.
.

Kashmir is totally different issue and has nothing to do with Indian discrimination with indian Muslims.

As far as communal disharmony in India is concern, try to be realistic it has started the day the advocatees of Akhand Bharat have came up with statements like expelling Muslims out of India in case they do not become Hindus and at that time even Pakistan was not created.

So i think just shying away from discussing the flaws in Indian secularism wont do any good.

Trust me as your rival i would be happy if you continue with your current behaviour but as someone desireous of peace in the region i would like to see a change in that attitude.

 

[King Julien]

I have been on this forum for a while, since I am not a defence expert, I try to learn more and write less. Most of my posts are on political and social aspect rather than on defence, and while going through these sections, I have come to realize the high degree of polarization on social and political issues among Indian and Pakistani posters. Most criticized (and correctly too) are the secular credentials of India. From the territory under British rule, India has emerged as the only constitutionally secular country which has a majority of Hindu Populations, and Hindus, we are taught are the most tolerant and naturally secular people.

All seems so good on paper, infact too good to be true. Constitutionally every segment has their respective rights and entitled to similar benefits, but it’s the ground reality that bites. I am a patriotic Indian, and I feel it is my duty to accept the realities of our society. We are told by Pakistani members about no. of Muslims in Army, about No. of Muslim Prime Ministers etc. To counter this Indians post some survey showing improvement in the Living standards of muslim, Azim Premzi, Kalam, any number of bollywood personalities etc. Statistics I believe are not the right tool to measure the degree of secularism. As it is wisely said Statistics are like mini skirts, they reveal more than they conceal, but they conceal the most important parts. I am more concerned about the increasing number of Muslim migration to Muslim dominated neighborhood than decreasing number of Muslims in Army.

I would dare any red blooded Indian to put a hand on his heart and say that in India Muslims have the same social and economical position as Hindus or Sikhs. They do not. Blunt and harsh as it may be, but that is the truth. And the real danger to secularism is not from a small 5-8% segment of right wing Hindu extremists but from another maybe 30-40% who are constantly skeptical about fellow Indian's intentions because of his/her religion. They will hail Azharuddin when he produces consecutive centuries, but won't take a second to term him as a traitor when he fails against Pakistan.

To me the epitome of lowering of secular standards recently is not Gujrat. Gujrat is the end product of a process. The process started when we suddenly stopped seeing signs of "Hindu Muslim Sikh Isai apas main sab bhai bhai" behind every truck, auto and tea stalls. It stated getting replaced by "Hindustan main rehna hai to Vande Matram Kehna Hoga". We stopped showing Titles of the movie in Urdu. We started calling Ghazal as Gajal. Urdu was marginalized. Mughlai Dishes in Menu card turned into Punjabi. These things added up. Some started asking for proof of patriotism in Muslims as if by some divine grace they have the authority to provide another Indian a right to living in his own country. Every time a doubt is raised over patriotism of a Muslim, the secular belief takes a blow. I agree completely with Jaswant Singh when he says: At times Muslims are treated as Aliens. Yes Babri Masjid, Blue Star and Gujrat are such blots on Indian history that can never be wiped out and realization that the perpetrators of such ghastly acts are still roaming free on street makes me hang my head in shame.

Another issue I have is with poster comparing treatment of minorities in India with Minorities in Pakistan. This is completely unjustified as Pakistan is a declared Islamic Republic and India is constitutionally secular.

On the other hand - Is it all as evil as few Pakistani posters make it sound? Is their any state sponsored religious cleansing happening? Are Muslims treated as second rate citizens and deprived of opportunity? Are they bound to live in ghettos and not allowed residence in posh localities? Are they economically worse than Dalits? Are Hindus a sworn enemy of Muslims? Answer is an Emphatic - NO.

Approach of Hindus towards Muslims may be skeptical but is not generally hostile. Most of the Violence and crimes in Riots are not acts of extremely religious Hindus but of opportunist criminals who would have taken advantage of the situation regardless of victim’s religious background. Our justice system is more to blame for not punishing these criminals than our social fabric. Lack of Muslims in Public services is because of reliance on Madarsa system rather than regular school. Economic backwardness is more because of the geographic distribution of Muslim population than religious bias.

The reality is somewhere between the two extremes painted by Indian and Pakistani posters. It is secular and communal at the same time. To my mind, the defining image of India is the crowd, and a crowd is by its very nature superabundant, heterogeneous, many things at once.

sorry to say buddy but your completely outdated, seriously you need to get out of those pink polka dot boxers, they are so not happening...
talking about menu cards and secularism with an tadka of hindu extremism?? do you seriously believe an average Indian really knows what's secularism? aren't they busy with their work and having kids?? every country has some bad patches, so do we... but does it mean we pull out those pages again and again in the name of secularity and tag them as hindus and muslims rather then Indians? how do we get a secular India unless we tag those people who burnt sabarmati express as criminals rather then muslims?
don't you think instead advocating of vip treatment to minority, we should really try hard to reach those in need irrespective of race & color?
these communal violence are bound to happen; as they say “Jahan char bartan honge, woh bajenge”... what really matters is how strong our foundations are..
"Hindu Muslim Sikh Isai apas main sab bhai bhai"is so not happening, we already divide ourselves before bhai bhai... why not plain simple INDIAN?
so now let's talk "TEACH INDIA"

 

[MilesTogo]

Actually first we need to determine on part of Muslims if they desire secularism or not? If not, then Indian Muslims should join hands with Pakistan and declare a war on Hindus and rest of non-muslims to carve out another Pakistan out of remaining India. I think in some sense the war is already on in the form of terror attacks. I will not be surprised if we have another pakistan in next 50-100 years. On the other hand, I actually can not imagine a positive answer to this question from Muslims when I look at the societies like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. But then I get confused when I see a few muslims living in west and other non-muslim countries actually liking the idea of secularism and living peacefully with people of other religion.

It looks like Muslims start out as secular to gain entry into non-muslim world and then gain strength in numbers and then show their true non-secular colors. I think it is an excellent strategy to conquer the world.

Its good to see that Europe is waking up to this dangerous game while there is still time. Read article below and the comments.
http://blog.dawn.com:91/dblog/2009/08/18/islamophobia-in-europe/

If Europe fails, we can expect few more smaller Pakistans pop up in Europe too.

 

[Al-zakir]

US accuses India over religious freedom



Thu Aug 13, 12:59 pm ET
WASHINGTON (AFP) –An official US commission accused ally India of failing to protect Christian and Muslim minorities from violent attacks, prompting a denial Thursday from New Delhi.

The report from the US Commission on International Religious Freedom placed India on a watch list over alleged failure to prevent a "disturbing increase in communal violence" in the majority Hindu state.

The annual report, released Wednesday, cited attacks in Orissa against Christians in 2008 and against Muslims in Gujarat in 2002.

"It is extremely disappointing that India, which has a multitude of religious communities, has done so little to protect and bring justice to its religious minorities under siege," said Leonard Leo, USCIRF chairman.

The USCIRF commission is appointed by the president and Congress, although its recommendations have no binding power.

India responded by calling the commission's report "regrettable."

"India, a country of 1.1 billion people, is a multi-ethnic and multi-religious society," External Affairs Ministry spokesman Vishnu Prakash was quoted as saying by PTI news agency.

"Aberrations, if any, are dealt with promptly within our legal framework under the watchful eye of an independent judiciary and a vigilant media," Prakash said.

"The constitution of India guarantees freedom of religion and equality of opportunity to all its citizens who live and work together in peace and harmony."

The US commission accused the authorities of not only failing to prevent violence, but said in a statement that "court convictions have been infrequent, perpetrators rarely brought to justice, and thousands of people remain displaced."

Leo said: "India's democratic institutions charged with upholding the rule of law, most notably state and central judiciaries and police, have emerged as unwilling or unable to seek redress for victims."

The other countries currently on USCIRF's watch list are Afghanistan, Belarus, Cuba, Egypt, Indonesia, Laos, Russia, Somalia, Tajikistan, Turkey, and Venezuela.

Christians account for 2.3 percent of India's population and the community has been the target of sporadic campaigns of violence.

In a wave of attacks last year, 20 churches and chapels were vandalised and destroyed in Karnataka.

Just two weeks ago, police in southern India found the body of a Catholic priest by a roadside in Karnataka state, the scene of anti-Christian attacks last year.

One diocesan official, Tomy Mattom, was quoted by the Vatican-based news agency Asianews as saying his death looked like an "execution."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090813...religionrights


So I heard India is secular!!!