Secular by Necessity

[Novus ordu seclorum]

You clearly are reading without context and you are not getting what Quran says. Find a good teacher who teaches you Quran. I first proved you wrong then again you again I can prove you wrong but it's waste of time.

View attachment 790523


He has ordained for you of religion what He enjoined upon Noah and that which We have revealed to you, [O Muḥammad], and what We enjoined upon Abraham and Moses and Jesus - to establish the religion and not be divided therein. Difficult for those who associate others with Allah is that to which you invite them. Allah chooses for Himself whom He wills and guides to Himself whoever turns back [to Him].

Qurah Surah 42 Ayat 13

What economic and political system Prophet Nuh a.s. wanted to establish over 7000 years ago? The verse doesn't prove your ideology. The foundation of religion is belief in Allah (without associates), which is like a running engine in the heart with faith as its fuel.

 

[Zarvan]

What economic and political system Prophet Nuh a.s. wanted to establish over 7000 years ago? The verse doesn't prove your ideology. The foundation of religion is belief in Allah (without associates), which is like a running engine in the heart with faith as its fuel.

You establish a system Mr. Not a deen. Yes it proves my point yet it proves. PROPHET SAW established Government in Madinah because he was not just a messenger but was a leader who was sent to establish Islam. It proves why four Caliphs ruled the world and why they established Islam will all its might. All laws of Islam including on crimes and economy and social and moral values were established and implemented by four Sahaba with full force. And because of that and great precedent they set we Muslims were rules for next several centuries. So please go learn Islam before starting debate you have no clue about.

Contrary to religion Deen covers all aspects of human life. It covers both spiritual/scared matters and mundane/secular affairs of this world. In brief, religion deals with man‘s relation with God; while Deen deals both man‘s relation with God as well As his fellow beings. Deen provides guidance in the individual and collective affairs. It offers a belief system, concept of worship to fulfill the spiritual and metaphysical needs of individual, and provides social, political, economic, legal codes and cultural norms for the betterment of society-taken as one community. When the term Deen is used for Islam, it obviously means a system of life where Allah is worshipped and obeyed, not just in the narrow religious sense, but in a manner that includes all aspects of human life. ―This day, I have perfected your Deen for you, completed my favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your Deen.‖

Hence an impartial critic like Dr. Michael Hart is compelled to confess that ―My choice of Mohammad to lead the list of the world‘s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level.

 

[jamahir]

@SkyWolf, my post# 60.

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

You establish a system Mr. Not a deen. Yes it proves my point yet it proves. PROPHET SAW established Government in Madinah because he was not just a messenger but was a leader who was sent to establish Islam.

The Prophet governed Medinah by a Constitution. Have you read it? The word Islam does not appear on it. The Constitution is about relationship among the different people, their rights and responsibilities.

 

[TNT]

What you have stated seems reasonable to me. Now please look at this @zarban fellow in this thread. He apparently supported TTP according to @sainthood. You appear to be a moderate person. Whose vision would be realized in an Islamic state: Yours or Zarbans?
What if you found yourself in the minority of moderate muslims... and suddenly find yourself in the barbaric perversion of islam by TTP ruling the land and dispensing "justice"?

You have stated that Mullahs do a poor job of interpretation. This is actually my point. Even the experts can't agree, how are 200 million people supposed to come to a consensus?

I am not trying to win an argument against you. I am trying to demonstrate that applying your reasoning in the practical world has proven to be impossible.

You have said there are no sects in Islam. I agree. Nowhere in Quran does it say sunni or shia. However, you cannot dismiss that in the real world there are Sunnis and Shias -- and they will fight to the death if either side tries to impose its way of life on the other.

Again - this is not about proving anyone wrong but determining what is best for Pakistan.



Secularism is India ... cow vigilantes, love jihads, gowalkar, bjp, rss,vhp, communal riots, akhand bharat fetishizing, beef bans, hindutva, sachar commitee report, casteism, dalit persecution.

I hate these dumb pajeet posts. "I live in amreeka dubba dubba ding ding"

I get ur point and the reason for our downfall is our hypocrisy. The state having religion does not mean one version or another would be implemented. It simply means the basic boundaries of Islam would be respected, which are common in all sects. The rest of your way of life and implementation of religion in ur life is ur personal matter. In today's world, at times i find western govts more Islamic than Pakistan.

 

[-=virus=-]

what do the true Islamists make of other people's systems of living and governance ?

do you feel ordained by 'the maker' to go on and destroy those other people's systems and impose upon them your own system ?

do true Muslims feel they are called upon to take up arms against the non believers ?

what when the Muslims are in a minority in a secular or non Islamic country.. how are they supposed to go about propagating the faith ? and till how long do they just propagate it before they're stuffing their AK magazines full of 7.62 rounds to teach the infidels at a nightclub how seks, drugs and rock n roll lifestyle will get them killed ?

 

[jamahir]

what do the true Islamists make of other people's systems of living and governance ?

do you feel ordained by 'the maker' to go on and destroy those other people's systems and impose upon them your own system ?

do true Muslims feel they are called upon to take up arms against the non believers ?

what when the Muslims are in a minority in a secular or non Islamic country.. how are they supposed to go about propagating the faith ? and till how long do they just propagate it before they're stuffing their AK magazines full of 7.62 rounds to teach the infidels at a nightclub how seks, drugs and rock n roll lifestyle will get them killed ?

True Islamist here.

To begin with the socio-economics please read post# 60. That will be an initial reference.

Now don't take me wrong but Islam is not about praying 40 times a day like a Brahmin priest and adopting a life of false piousness like having a three-foot-long beard and imposing burqa and declaring foolishness like earthquakes occur because of women becoming immoral and then doing actually immoral things like maintaining feudalism, urban Capitalism, denial of the rights of workers and enabling international criminals to fight NATO's battles against progressive societies.

But even I am not comfortable with gym-and-dieting-spoiled female bodies ensconced in tight dresses and jumping up and down in a nightclub to dhikchak dhaakchak beats with alcohol in hand and spouting f-words. If someone wants to socialize there are other better, gentler ways, like a chance meeting at a bookshop and the consequent detour to the tea house.

 

[-=virus=-]

True Islamist here.

I hope not

but there is an army of them out there, they're learning the tricks on how to answer and what to evade.. politicricket, bole to.

To begin with the socio-economics please read post# 60. That will be an initial reference.

make it easier, please embed or provide a direct link when referencing a previous statement of yours, could you ?

Now don't take me wrong but Islam is not about praying 40 times a day like a Brahmin priest and adopting a life of false piousness like having a three-foot-long beard and imposing burqa and declaring foolishness like earthquakes occur because of women becoming immoral and then doing actually immoral things like maintaining feudalism, urban Capitalism, denial of the rights of workers and enabling international criminals to fight NATO's battles against progressive societies.

never ever met anyone who prays 40 times a day, wtf are you even on about ?

and are anyone of them forcing you to subscribe to their ideas ?

what feudalism, urban capitalism ?? just fancy words for the rich being more powerful than the rest.. well, that's how it is.. for every Ratan Tata, there will be a million Ramu Kakas polishing his stable of supercars. Come to think of it, there really is nothing bad in landing a job where you get to polish Ratan Ji's collection of Bentleys and Lamborginis.. or maintaining a robot that is assembling Tata Harriers at their plant..

and BC, challang maar kai NATO pe kahan pahunch gya ? wtf


.. NATO vs Arab

But even I am not comfortable with gym-and-dieting-spoiled female bodies ensconced in tight dresses and jumping up and down in a nightclub to dhikchak dhaakchak beats with alcohol in hand and spouting f-words. If someone wants to socialize there are other better, gentler ways, like a chance meeting at a bookshop and the consequent detour to the tea house.

ok, so have a sekshwal preference that you prefer the chubbers... love handles good, yeah ? LOL

 

[jamahir]

make it easier, please embed or provide a direct link when referencing a previous statement of yours, could you ?

Post# 60, which means a post in this thread, is just seven posts before yours. Just go to the previous page.

what feudalism, urban capitalism ??

I was talking about Pakistan :

DHARKI: An influential landlord set his dogs on a worker in village Sangu after he failed to pay the fine imposed by the village council on Saturday.

According to sources, the worker identified as Zaheer Kobhar was severely injured due to the dog bites, however no one was willing to tend to him or take him to the hospital for medical attention.

Zaheer’s mother claims the landlord issued threats, restricting anyone from taking her son to the hospital.

The story began 10-days ago, when the local village council imposed a Rs. 400,000 fine along with two young girls from his family to be presented as ‘Vani’ (forced marriage as penalty for a male member’s crime).

However as Zaheer was unable to furnish the Rs 400,000 the influential landlord set his dogs on him and is denying him medical attention, as well.

Zaheer’s mother claims the local police is not willing to help her and her son.

Come to think of it, there really is nothing bad in landing a job where you get to polish Ratan Ji's collection of Bentleys and Lamborginis.. or maintaining a robot that is assembling Tata Harriers at their plant..

Ratan Tata said this about Mukesh Ambani's obscene and non-empathetic 27-storey "house" :

Public reception

Tata Group former chairman Ratan Tata said Antilia is an example of rich Indians' lack of empathy for the poor. Tata said, "The person who lives in there should be concerned about what he sees around him and asking can he make a difference. If he can not, then it's sad because this country needs people to allocate some of their enormous wealth to finding ways of mitigating the hardship that people have." "It makes me wonder why someone would do that. That's what revolutions are made of."

and BC, challang maar kai NATO pe kahan pahunch gya ? wtf

Again a reference to "pious" mullahs.

ok, so have a sekshwal preference that you prefer the chubbers... love handles good, yeah ? LOL

"Chubbers" is not a fully descriptive word. The connoisseurs prefer "Voluptuous".

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

what do the true Islamists make of other people's systems of living and governance ?

do you feel ordained by 'the maker' to go on and destroy those other people's systems and impose upon them your own system ?

do true Muslims feel they are called upon to take up arms against the non believers ?

what when the Muslims are in a minority in a secular or non Islamic country.. how are they supposed to go about propagating the faith ? and till how long do they just propagate it before they're stuffing their AK magazines full of 7.62 rounds to teach the infidels at a nightclub how seks, drugs and rock n roll lifestyle will get them killed ?

Some answers are here.

Washington Post. Oct 8, 2014
The Taliban indoctrinates kids with jihadist textbooks paid for by the U.S.

The United States had spent millions of dollars beginning in the 1980s to produce and disseminate anti-Soviet textbooks for Afghan schoolchildren. The books encouraged a jihadist outlook, which was useful propaganda at the time for a Washington driven by the imperatives of the Cold War.

"The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum," The Post reported. "Even the Taliban used the American-produced books, though the radical movement scratched out human faces in keeping with its strict fundamentalist code."

Printed both in Pashto and Dari, Afghanistan's two major languages, books such as "The Alphabet for Jihad Literacy" were produced under the auspices of the U.S. Agency for International Development by the University of Nebraska at Omaha and smuggled into Afghanistan through networks built by the CIA and Pakistan's military intelligence agency, the ISI.

 

[SecularNationalist]

I was called a progressive, libturd, secularist, disloyal, westernized atheist on this forum.

If my fellow Pakistanis could agree on the one, the true universal practice of Islam and a singular interpretation of hadith agreed upon by all -- I would be more than happy to be a part of this utopian Islamic republic. A country governed on entirely Islamic principles and jurisprudence along with a happy and productive citizenry.

This sounds wonderful to me in theory. In practice - we have cut each other's throats for our various interpretations. We have shamelessly bombed each other's mosques. We have politicized Islam and religiosity to our own detriment. Our clergy (per landmark supreme court case) could not even agree on the correct definition of what constitutes a Muslim let alone the finer points and universal application of Islamic jurisprudence.

Whose practice or model of Islam is correct anyway? Turkey, Saudi, Malaysia, Afghan Taliban, Pakistan Taliban, ISIS?

Since our diverse demographics can never come to an agreement - I have taken the secular approach. No sect, sub-sect, cult, extremist, moderate, liberal shall enforce their version of Islam on another Muslim. You see, I wasn't born a secularist - I become one by necessity.

Secularism does not mean the absence of Islam. To me, it means --- Freedom of Religion. I would go a step farther and say it is Protection of Religion. In a secular country, Sunni, Shia, Barelvi, Deobandi, fill-in-the-blank can go worship as they wish so long as they don't impose their beliefs on others.

This doesn't make me an atheist. It makes me a Muslim who wishes to see a peaceful, happy, prosperous Pakistan where our beautiful religion is practiced by each individual without compulsion at their individual level of comfort.

Pakistan would remain a Muslim country - an important part and continuation of the great Islamic civilizations but it would be focused more on its economy and the welfare of her people instead of dogmatic minutiae.

If that makes me progressive, westernized, and liberal then so be it but I have never been disloyal to my country.

What you said is word by word true but unfortunately this will fall on deaf ears.
Most people here not educated enough to differentiate between liberalism,atheism and secularism. How can you argue with such people and win an argument on any logical grounds.
Feel sorry for wanna be islamists on this forum who are just confused, ignorant people facing identity crisis.