Secular by Necessity

[TNT]

What you have stated is very close to my position. Perhaps, I have done a poor job of communicating. I guess my question is what does it mean to have a state religion in your mind?

The hudud crime of theft is referred to in Quran verse 5:38:

Would you support this law? There would be no one left in Pakistan with two hands.
Would you agree there are better ways in the modern world to address petty theft by an impoverished, first-time, juvenile offender than the prescription above?

Let's say this is the best law --- do you trust for a moment for Pakistani judiciary, law-enforcement to be fair and equitable in dispensing impartial evidence-based justice?


Very nice answer that I understood. Thanks. I was referring to the other gentleman saying every singly worldly problem is solved in the holy quran itself. This may be correct but it would still be subject to human interpretation.

The punishment is proscribed in Quran but as u said, in a pathetic and corrupt judicial system of Pakistan, that would be mostly misused. In Islam, an Islamic state can change punishments. There are recommendations in Quran and they are the upper boundaries. For example, according to my limited knowledge, u cannot give death punishment for theft but u can give a lighter punishment than cutting off hand. One example is that of Islamic way of divorce. You have to give divorce in 3 different sitting, so as to eliminate emotional decision. But then in times of Umar RA, cases of 3 talaqs in one sitting became common and most would later regret it and change their decision. This led the khalifa to change the law so whoever gave 3 talaqs in one sitting,the talaq would be considered official and with no option of reverting and changing decision plus 10 lashes. It was a punishment for not following the proper way of talaq in Islam. It shows that laws and punishments can be amended based on the era and its need, as long as it does not collide with the basics. Not cutting off hand as a punishment for theft does not collide with the basics of Islam. There is ijma is Islam, there is alot of freedom given in Islam. The problem is we let mullah interpret it for us and every mullah have made his groups and followers. Can u believe that mullahs will actually tell u not to study Quran urself because u might not understand it and go astray so u have to learn it from him and believe how he explains it. While its written in Quran very clearly that its sent in simple and easy language so that u can understand it easily. So should we believe what mullah says or the what the Quran say?

 

[Zarvan]

Translation:
His ideas are novel and different on another topic. He is a bad person. Hang him!

Fine. I agree. Who is right?

A) sunni
B) shia


Which state has proper islamic governance?

A) saudi
B) iran
C) bangladesh
D) turkey

Who has it right?

A) taliban
B) isis

Who should be judge?

Muslims should be the judge. Right now no country is fully Islamic. That still doesn't give you excuse to be secular. Clergy agrees or not still doesn't justify your secularism. In Islam you have to keep struggling to establish ALLAH deen on this world. That is your duty as Muslim. Those who betray this duty will face wrath of ALLAH. Secularism is all out Kufr.

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

The hudud crime of theft is referred to in Quran verse 5:38:

Would you support this law? There would be no one left in Pakistan with two hands.
Would you agree there are better ways in the modern world to address petty theft by an impoverished, first-time, juvenile offender than the prescription above?

You don't necessarily have to apply the most severe punishment [Hudud]. The next verse says lesser punishment can be applied. 5-39 But whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms, indeed, Allah will turn to him in forgiveness. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Hudud Wikipedia: These punishments were rarely applied in pre-modern Islam [2][3].

Arabs and Semites cut off hand for theft before the Quran, thus it is a corporal punishment in their culture. Other cultures should not be compelled to adopt it [no compulsion in religion]. Moreover, the early Khalifahs would suspend the maximum punishment if someone stole out of hunger and generally in times of poverty.

 

[El Sidd]

Wow any more labels you would like to add?

Classic example of not arguing the merits of an argument but attacking the person.

Fyi. Nothing would make me happier than freedom for kashmir.

Is it sacrilege to ask at what cost though?

Tell me more about my xenophobia. That one is new.

Why don't you alleviate yourself from rhetorical existence?

 

[Maula Jatt]

Muslims should be the judge. Right now no country is fully Islamic. That still doesn't give you excuse to be secular. Clergy agrees or not still doesn't justify your secularism. In Islam you have to keep struggling to establish ALLAH deen on this world. That is your duty as Muslim. Those who betray this duty will face wrath of ALLAH. Secularism is all out Kufr.

Just like you once supported TTP some other day you might support TLP (which is definitely better than what you previously supported)
This deewane ka khwab will make the country an utter shithole

Keep struggling and keep supporting the next latest, trendy "fitna" of the day, till everything collapse
Play shariah games on its ashes

 

[Zarvan]

Just like you once supported TTP some other day you might support TLP (which is definitely better than what you previously supported)
This deewane ka khwab will make the country an utter shithole

Keep struggling and keep supporting the next latest, trendy "fitna" of the day, till everything collapse
Play shariah games on its ashes

This is what Islam orders. You have to keep thriving to establish it all over the world. I don't care what seculars have to say. I have Quran and Sunnah to follow and study and implement it. And I millions of Muslims would INSHALLAH do it. Those calling themselves secular really need to decide on being Muslim or not. Because secularism is crystal clear kufr.

 

[Norwegian]

This is what Islam orders. You have to keep thriving to establish it all over the world. I don't care what seculars have to say. I have Quran and Sunnah to follow and study and implement it. And I millions of Muslims would INSHALLAH do it. Those calling themselves secular really need to decide on being Muslim or not. Because secularism is crystal clear kufr.

Implement it on yourself and not upon others

 

[Maula Jatt]

This is what Islam orders. You have to keep thriving to establish it all over the world. I don't care what seculars have to say. I have Quran and Sunnah to follow and study and implement it. And I millions of Muslims would INSHALLAH do it. Those calling themselves secular really need to decide on being Muslim or not. Because secularism is crystal clear kufr.

I know you are probably not right in the head
but define secularism? do you even know what it means? cause if you did you woudnt be saying this stupid crap

"study and implement"
ah so your studying led to your liking of TTP and we have seen the implement part in 70k deaths...

Inshallah muslim would do it
- You cant even look top research nations in the eyes when it comes to R&D, the only thing you produce are chaddis but khwaab bare bare
lol

 

[Zarvan]

Implement it on yourself and not upon others

Islam orders to implement it upon yourself and others. It's not a individual thing that is where our seculars don't get it. They think Islam is limited to offering Salah, fasting, Hajj, and paying Zakat. No Sir it's not. Islam is a whole system. Like Capitalism is a system and Communism is a system. Islam has its own economic, social, criminal and moral system which is duty of Government to enforce and if they fail to do their duty, then it's duty of each and every Muslim to put pressure on Government to do it.

I know you are probably not right in the head
but define secularism? do you even know what it means? cause if you did you woudnt be saying this stupid crap

"study and implement"
ah so your studying led to your liking of TTP and we have seen the implement part in 70k deaths...

Inshallah muslim would do it
- You cant even look top research nations in the eyes when it comes to R&D, the only thing you produce are chaddis but khwaab bare bare
lol

I know what secularism means. You clearly don't what Islam means and says and orders. You are one of those who think Islam is limited to offering Salah, Fasting, Hajj, and paying Zakat. If Abu Juhal would have been alive even he would have burst out in laughter. Abu Juhal and all the enemies of Islam understood what Islam is that is why they rose and made all the effort to destroy and stop it. Islam is whole system including economic, criminal, social and moral. Which is primary duty of Government to establish and if they fail it's incumbent upon each and every Muslim to force Government to do it.

 

[Norwegian]

Islam orders to implement it upon yourself and others.

First upon yourself then others. Have you implemented Islam upon yourself?

Islam has its own economic, social, criminal and moral system which is duty of Government to enforce and if they fail to do their duty, then it's duty of each and every Muslim to put pressure on Government to do it.

Govts duty is to enforce country's laws and constitution, not what Muslims think is Islamic, and should be enforced by the govt. You Islamists have it all wrong.

 

[Zarvan]

First upon yourself then others. Have you implemented Islam upon yourself?

Govts duty is to enforce country's laws and constitution, not what Muslims think is Islamic, and should be enforced by the govt. You Islamists have it all wrong.

We Islamists have it right. We know what Islam says. It's our seculars and liberals who are confused. They need to clear their confusion.

 

[AgnosticIndian]

Communism is a system

hmmm. I was thinking about this sometime ago. many people of the "systems" have filled graveyards with it. empirical evidence, real effects don't matter. the system must go on, whether the system ever conformed with reality doesn't matter. the Communists (Marxist-Leninist specifically) are gone now, the firm believers have collapsed and others remain Communist in name only. but individual remnants still bask in the glory. they also used to bicker on true Communism. everyone agreed that Communism is the best system, and after each failure they either declared foreign sabotage, or it turned out that wasn't real Communism. the individual remnants still bicker.

 

[SkyWolf]

Why don't you alleviate yourself from rhetorical existence?

I am not sure these fancy words mean what you think they mean. Have someone give you a hug. You need it.

 

[cloud4000]

You need to define what secularism is, especially as a Muslim or if you live in a Muslim country. I live in the US, which is -- technically -- a secular country, in that religion and politics are separated. The US Constitution contains language that prohibits the establishment of a state religion.

In the case of Muslim countries like Pakistan, there's no such separation. Islam is Pakistan and Pakistan is Islam.

 

[Norwegian]

We Islamists have it right. We know what Islam says. It's our seculars and liberals who are confused. They need to clear their confusion.

If you know what is right, why live in Pakistan, a country governed by laws and constitution? Why not move to some Islamic state like Iran or Afghanistan?

hmmm. I was thinking about this sometime ago. many people of the "systems" have filled graveyards with it. empirical evidence, real effects don't matter. the system must go on, whether the system ever conformed with reality doesn't matter. the Communists (Marxist-Leninist specifically) are gone now, the firm believers have collapsed and others remain Communist in name only. but individual remnants still bask in the glory. they also used to bicker on true Communism. everyone agreed that Communism is the best system, and after each failure they either declared foreign sabotage, or it turned out that wasn't real Communism. the individual remnants still bicker.

Communists, Socialists, Islamists they are all the same. After each failure of their system, they blame someone else instead of themselves and their own twisted ideology
@Zarvan

You need to define what secularism is, especially as a Muslim or if you live in a Muslim country. I live in the US, which is -- technically -- a secular country, in that religion and politics are separated. The US Constitution contains language that prohibits the establishment of a state religion.

In the case of Muslim countries like Pakistan, there's no such separation. Islam is Pakistan and Pakistan is Islam.

There is technically no Islamic state anywhere. Iran and Pakistan are Islamic Republics. Afghanistan is Islamic Emirate. There was one Islamic State DAESH few years back but it's all gone and dusted now. Another failure of Islamic revolution