Second Hand F-16's for PAF

[airomerix]

Focusing on the highlighted part, are you telling that once the J series of jets mature and start evolving you will eventually replace the F-16s completely with J-10Bs or its advanced versions?

IMPO it is not very rational to upgrade 25 year old jets at your stage because upgrades cost significant money while have a not-so-significant extended lifespan. I say this as recently our government has taken a terrible decision to upgrade Jaguars rather than order more Tejas or Rafales.


Your air force should consider replacing the oldest of your F-16s instead of upgrading them in such a situation. You could probably order more J-10Bs with some sort of a deferred payment scheme which I am sure the Chinese won't refuse.

Upgradation of Block 15 is a very wise move. If you look at our over all fleet, 60% of it needs to rest in junk yards. Where as Block 15s still surpass F-7PG's and the older Mirages in terms of capability. The MLU Tape 3 which was selected by PAF will bring these Block 15s to approximately Block 40 standards. And Mind you Block 40s are still in the front line squadrons of USAF. Rotating regularly in Operations carried out in Afghanistan and Iraq today. Hence F-16 MLU's and Block 52s are here stay till 2025. Only if PAF launches yet another programme to upgrade the F-7P's then I yes I would agree with you. Since F-7P's cannot be beefed up to even a level of standard block 15. And this is the beauty of American platforms. Tons of potential for upgradation.

 

[umair86pk]

PAF F-16 MLU will be far more capable than European MLUs as PAF is getting same avionics as in their Block 52s APG-69v9 all other gadgets that original MLU don't have

 

[Manticore]

airomerix, from where did you get the info that paf mlu is around blk40 capability?

 

[Storm Force]

The only reason this thread is STIL ALIVE and on page10 is because many of you have serious doubts over the CURRENT AND NEAR FUTURE capability of the JFT programme . I also feel many of you dont envisage that PAF will aqcquire enough fc20 to a make a telling diffrence.

FOR THESE reasons and your TRUST OF WESTERN hardware over EASTERN you keep going back to a SANCTION THREATENED
F16 OPTIONS.

You have very lmited resources

WHY WASTE them on a COMBAT PLATFORM that will be sanctioned for spares 100% guranteed in a war WITH A MAJOR USA STRATEGIC ALLY like india/.

 

[jupiter2007]

They are simply cheap compare to purchasing a New Platform like FC-20. PAF Engineers/technicians are doing MLU so they are getting the experience and it makes it cheaper.

 

[Viper0011.]

But if that is the case, J10B is clearly the way to go instead of limiting PAF to 4th gen techs, that hardly brings them on par with IAFs upgraded Mirage and Mig 29s.
Unless the US will provide PAF with something like the F16 B60, 2nd hand F16s will only add up numbers, but not quality.

Coming from the world of strategy, you have two issues here in the case of the PAF:
1) Short term - Create immediate parity with India to last for the next 5-7 years
2) Long term - Add sanction proof, fourth and some fifth gen capability. Majority of which should come from internal assembly, tot and or with the ability to entirely overhaul internally. And, be able to produce about 70-80% of critical components internally so you are self sufficient.

So based on the above two goals, the short term feasibility is used F-16's MLU in numbers. Quick integration, immediate availability of pilots and existing operational excellence, all ready to deploy option with existing weapon systems like AIM9x, AMRAAMS, etc. This results in creating immediate parity with India. Plus, you get up to date, latest Western avionics that will remain the standard for the next 5-7 years at the least. Plus the numbers are quickly available. JFT or J-10B will take a few years to even build an additional 100. While F-16 used can be purchased in numbers rather quickly and these are one of the most widely combat proven jet by many nations.

Now long term, the JFT needs to mature up, it'll take a couple of more years. It will become a very potent work horse of the PAF. Once entirely weaponized, it can defend itself against anything BUT the Stealth jets. JFT BII will be even more potent as the PAF will / has already been adding things to the 'upgrade list' based on experience with F-16 B 52, Chinese J-10, SU-30 and J-20 related technologies (J-10 uses smaller tech that of used in J-20, just a reference).
So JFT BII will be more potent. JFT BIII (in my opinion) should be stealthy to give Pakistan a cheaper Stealthy punch.

Similarly, J-10B and then later on J-31 need a few years to get inducted and some more years to get integrated into the PAF. Then there will be upgrades, changes, defect fixes.
Buying 200 of these won't help the PAF if there was a war with India tomorrow.
These jets will fight as individual planes rather than an integrated air defense system if used immediately after acquisition.
But these will come in handy 4-5 years from now when they will be tested, integrated and become a part of the system. Helping Pakistan create parity with Rafale and Su-30's. Pakistan should also be acquiring a Stealth jet within 5 years from now also to balance off the PakFa. Again, balance off means credible deterrence. Not 1:1 parity which isn't do-able due to the size and the economy of Pakistan.

 

[muse]

Coming from the world of strategy, you have two issues here in the case of the PAF:
1) Short term - Create immediate parity with India to last for the next 5-7 years
2) Long term - Add sanction proof, fourth and some fifth gen capability. Majority of which should come from internal assembly, tot and or with the ability to entirely overhaul internally. And, be able to produce about 70-80% of critical components internally so you are self sufficient.

So based on the above two goals, the short term feasibility is used F-16's MLU in numbers. Quick integration, immediate availability of pilots and existing operational excellence, all ready to deploy option with existing weapon systems like AIM9x, AMRAAMS, etc. This results in creating immediate parity with India. Plus, you get up to date, latest Western avionics that will remain the standard for the next 5-7 years at the least. Plus the numbers are quickly available. JFT or J-10B will take a few years to even build an additional 100. While F-16 used can be purchased in numbers rather quickly and these are one of the most widely combat proven jet by many nations.

From Strategy to reality: We cannot and will not create parity with India - anyone who says that's what we are doing is being less than truthful with you - we hope to create and maintain what we call a credible deterrent.
Adding more F16 or spending any more money on F16 is good (and scarce) money chasing bad -- why bad? we all know why, lets not go through this again. In the 15 to 20 years that India may require to absorb the technologies she is procuring, Should we not build our indigenous capability ?? Should we not learn from the experience of the Chinese, recall how they continued with F/J7 till their industry took off?

Now long term, the JFT needs to mature up, it'll take a couple of more years. It will become a very potent work horse of the PAF. Once entirely weaponized, it can defend itself against anything BUT the Stealth jets. JFT BII will be even more potent as the PAF will / has already been adding things to the 'upgrade list' based on experience with F-16 B 52, Chinese J-10, SU-30 and J-20 related technologies (J-10 uses smaller tech that of used in J-20, just a reference).
So JFT BII will be more potent. JFT BIII (in my opinion) should be stealthy to give Pakistan a cheaper Stealthy punch.

Similarly, J-10B and then later on J-31 need a few years to get inducted and some more years to get integrated into the PAF. Then there will be upgrades, changes, defect fixes.
Buying 200 of these won't help the PAF if there was a war with India tomorrow.
.

Orangzaib: India already outclass us and no one in their right mind would advise any Pakistani leader risk PAF against IAF within the year or even 5 year -- we have an opportunity, reduce tensions and use that time to reassess our position and create a plan towards an ambitious goal. JFT is a worthy platform to build on - and whatever it is that we may come up with, it will be ours.

 

[sancho]

Coming from the world of strategy, you have two issues here in the case of the PAF:
1) Short term - Create immediate parity with India to last for the next 5-7 years
2) Long term - Add sanction proof, fourth and some fifth gen capability. Majority of which should come from internal assembly, tot and or with the ability to entirely overhaul internally. And, be able to produce about 70-80% of critical components internally so you are self sufficient.

So based on the above two goals, the short term feasibility is used F-16's MLU in numbers.

Not really! The MLU upgrade brings the F16s only to a capability level, that IAF had in 1999, while Mig 29 and Mirage 2000s with be upgraded now with even better capabilities. More capable EW, better WVR missiles, better, passive target detection capability, SEAD and deepstrike capability. All this is not available for PAF, be it in the MLU, nor in rhe Block 52+ (you really need to fact check what capabilities your country really provide Pakistan), but only with Chinese origin fighters. That's why the only way for PAF to achive technologcal parity to IAFs low end, are JF 17 block 2 onwards and J10B.

Pakistan should also be acquiring a Stealth jet within 5 years from now

Again, not really! Once because not even China will have fully developed and induced a 5th gen fighter by then with all NG capabilities, secondly because Pakistan don't have the financial capability to procure and operat 5th gen fighters. Even JF 17 upgrades will be highly dependent on available funds, just like the procurement of J10B seems to be hanging on the same issue. That's why JF 17 block 2 will put the fighter into a good 4th generation fighter, but nothing more, while the Block 3 might bring it to 4.5th generation with AESA and more modern avionics. So when it's difficult to fund such simpler upgrades, how do you expect PAF to fund the procurement and operation of a useful number of stealth fighters?

With the current economical and political situation, there is not much to belive that PAF could become equal to IAF, be it in technological terms, or in numbers. PAF knows that too, that's why they are focusing on strategic capabilities and real game changers to counter India. Things like mid air refuellers, AWACS, cruise and stand off missile capability and with the experience of your sanctions and restrtictions during Kargil war, to have an independent base of fighters, that is cost-effective and can be procured in good numbers, the JF 17.
These are the capabilities that makes PAF today much closer to IAF , than ever before and not the F16s or anything the US provided!

 

[Thorough Pro]

here comes an LCa bitten arse.......

The only reason this thread is STIL ALIVE and on page10 is because many of you have serious doubts over the CURRENT AND NEAR FUTURE capability of the JFT programme . I also feel many of you dont envisage that PAF will aqcquire enough fc20 to a make a telling diffrence.

FOR THESE reasons and your TRUST OF WESTERN hardware over EASTERN you keep going back to a SANCTION THREATENED
F16 OPTIONS.

You have very lmited resources

WHY WASTE them on a COMBAT PLATFORM that will be sanctioned for spares 100% guranteed in a war WITH A MAJOR USA STRATEGIC ALLY like india/.

 

[Viper0011.]

Not really! The MLU upgrade brings the F16s only to a capability level, that IAF had in 1999, while Mig 29 and Mirage 2000s with be upgraded now with even better capabilities. More capable EW, better WVR missiles, better, passive target detection capability, SEAD and deepstrike capability. All this is not available for PAF, be it in the MLU, nor in rhe Block 52+ (you really need to fact check what capabilities your country really provide Pakistan), but only with Chinese origin fighters. That's why the only way for PAF to achive technologcal parity to IAFs low end, are JF 17 block 2 onwards and J10B.

With ALL due respect, the senseless post here makes no logical sense. Let me run a real life scenario by you. You have an Indian AF attacking Pakistan with a fighter fleet strength of say 400 jets (just an example for this post). What would you rather have defending you? 60 F-16's, F-7's (non BVR, smaller radar), Mirages (semi, low end BVR, smaller radar) and 50 JFT's (not combat proven and semi-integrated)??

OR you'll face the IAF with 120 F-16's, all BVR capable, long range radars, 80-100 miles out range with AMRAAMS, etc, and Mirages on the low end with some areas defended by JFT and F-7's as backups, point defense?
What makes sense? I let you and the readers decide. It doesn't matter if the F-16 capability takes the PAF (in your opinion) to a comparison of 199's IAF. That a silly comparison. LOOK at what the numbers would do to the IAF's attacking force. Much higher risk if more F-16's are acquired!!! You can ask ANYONE and you'll get the answer. Try to get out of that India vs. Pakistan mentality and independently think. More F-16's means more proven deterrence to defend the Pakistani skys and inflict potentially heavy losses to India. You think any country with an attacking force of 400 (or whatever jets) is willing to lose about 50-70% of that force? Knowing that there are latest Western fighters in decent numbers and doing just interceptions, no heavy loads, SAMS, EM, then another layer of point defense jets and short range SAMS....?? No one wants to take a chance that can either result in losing 40-50% of the hardly built air force over decades or a cash hit of a couple of trillions. And yes, you can also inflict heavy losses to the enemy but you are already attacking them. So they have no choice but to fight....

Again, not really! Once because not even China will have fully developed and induced a 5th gen fighter by then with all NG capabilities, secondly because Pakistan don't have the financial capability to procure and operat 5th gen fighters. Even JF 17 upgrades will be highly dependent on available funds, just like the procurement of J10B seems to be hanging on the same issue. That's why JF 17 block 2 will put the fighter into a good 4th generation fighter, but nothing more, while the Block 3 might bring it to 4.5th generation with AESA and more modern avionics. So when it's difficult to fund such simpler upgrades, how do you expect PAF to fund the procurement and operation of a useful number of stealth fighters?

With the current economical and political situation, there is not much to belive that PAF could become equal to IAF, be it in technological terms, or in numbers. PAF knows that too, that's why they are focusing on strategic capabilities and real game changers to counter India. Things like mid air refuellers, AWACS, cruise and stand off missile capability and with the experience of your sanctions and restrtictions during Kargil war, to have an independent base of fighters, that is cost-effective and can be procured in good numbers, the JF 17.
These are the capabilities that makes PAF today much closer to IAF , than ever before and not the F16s or anything the US provided!

I am amazed by your response. Mark my words. Pakistan will get the smaller version of Stealth jets. I am not a Pakistani as you tried to call me but I know the region very well. Pakistan and China WILL produce a stealth version for the Pakistanis. Also, the 'expensive upgrades' that you mentioned Pakistan 'can't' afford....will happen too. Always have. The Chinese alliance on both ends is strategic. Pakistan CAN'T match India by numbers 1:1. It can however acquire quality jets in large numbers to where attacking Pakistan would mean trillions of dollars of loss in the shape of Military hardware, and the lost economic activity. THAT's credible deterrence. Not 1:1 jet buying spree.
JFT will play a future 'sanction free' tool. Right now, with the short term scenario, it's not the case. So they'll probably get the F-16's. It's no rocket science. You integrate the best proven jet if you can immediately to increase your punch. Then you keep updating your own new jet till it becomes integrated, weaponized and combat ready. JFT needs time and it is a long term focus. Not short term.

 

[Viper0011.]

From Strategy to reality: We cannot and will not create parity with India - anyone who says that's what we are doing is being less than truthful with you - we hope to create and maintain what we call a credible deterrent.
Adding more F16 or spending any more money on F16 is good (and scarce) money chasing bad -- why bad? we all know why, lets not go through this again. In the 15 to 20 years that India may require to absorb the technologies she is procuring, Should we not build our indigenous capability ?? Should we not learn from the experience of the Chinese, recall how they continued with F/J7 till their industry took off?


Orangzaib: India already outclass us and no one in their right mind would advise any Pakistani leader risk PAF against IAF within the year or even 5 year -- we have an opportunity, reduce tensions and use that time to reassess our position and create a plan towards an ambitious goal. JFT is a worthy platform to build on - and whatever it is that we may come up with, it will be ours.

My man, you need to reread my post. You respond rather quickly and without understanding my true meaning. Per your comments:
1) Yes, you are right. No one is saying that Pakistan is about to get into a 1:1 match. That's not going to happen. They'll short term increase F-16's as they can be integrated immediately into the system with existing weapons, pilots, etc. That's actually very good as it creates an immediate punch. But this is short term to ensure there is a strong force to defend the Pakistani skys and in decent numbers, plus combat proven.

2) When war comes to you, you don't normalize tensions in the middle of a war. you FIGHT it. Reducing tensions and creating peace is what I've been advertising in every other post. BUT...JFT needs time to mature. That's why I broke my assessment into two pieces, one short term (used F-16's to defend Pakistan better in the case of a war as the current numbers are minimal) and two: long term, where JFT's different blocks come in with J-10B and potentially a version of J-31 or something stealth....be it JFT B III with a redesign.....so that's your long term. But the reason for looking into used F-16's is short term to address the huge numerical superiority gap that exists right now.

 

[Bobby]

I think Pakistan is doing same mistake what they did with USA....Pakistan always need a Boss who can fulfill their requirements for free......Pakistan should be self reliant and consider USA and China as their friend not Boss

 

[araz]

I think Pakistan is doing same mistake what they did with USA....Pakistan always need a Boss who can fulfill their requirements for free......Pakistan should be self reliant and consider USA and China as their friend not Boss

You have not understood a word of what has been written in the above posts!!! AGAIN___ Please read the posts again. What you are saying has proven to be impossible even for you. Remember Kevari!!! Why do you think it failed. Do you even begin to realize what sort of investment the Chinese are thinking of pouring into their engine manufacturing technology!! 50 Billion US dollars over the next 5-10 yrs. Do you have any inkling of why Pakistan and China are so closely linked together and why inspite of being bankrupt and financially destitute we get repeated offers of newer technology from China. Please try and read and UNDERSTAND before you preach. it is not without reason that Sweden is importing engines and other equipment from US for the Gripen. It is not without reason that in the French military aviation only after Snecma53?? of the M2K has the M88 come out and that too the UAE asked the French to increase the thrust on. Those are the 2 engines to come out of france in 50 yrs or so. SO that might give you a hint of the task ahead of you in jet engine manufacturing.
Strategically as well your post is VERY flawed. No one in this world can now survive and thrive in an isolated environment. Even the so called Isolated Iran is helped by the Russians and the Chinese. Pak Sino relationship is strategic with their being mutual benefit for both countries in maintaining it in its current status. China needs Pakistan to be a viable and detterrant state in the region for its own security. this is why Chinese help and tech will keep on bolstering the Pakistani establishment for as long as it can . Pakistan in its own ways has helped out at various junctures in ways that have been appreciated by the Chinese.
Araz

 

[sancho]

With ALL due respect, the senseless post here makes no logical sense.

Not surprising for me.

It doesn't matter if the F-16 capability takes the PAF (in your opinion) to a comparison of 199's IAF.

That's a fact that you simply can't accept, but IAF had BVR capability back then with at least 4 different fighter types, that's what the F16s MLU now will get as well, but they still lack modern agile IR missiles, they lack modern passive sensors, they lack capable EW systems..., so the general capability improvement of PAFs F 16s is limited to BVR and precision strike => the same capability IAF had in 1999!

Try to get out of that India vs. Pakistan mentality and independently think.

LOL, my biased fanboy. Unlike you, I pointed out the capability PAFs F16s has, mainly compared to the Chinese origin fighters they have, or might get. Because they clearly offer way more capabilities and tactical advantages to PAF than the F16s.
With an open mind you would see it as well, because you would see what kind of versions and what capability PAFs F16s have, compared to most modern F16s version in other air forces. As long as you don't do that, you obviously can't come to real conlcusions, but only to your childish calculations and theories.

No need to further waste my time.

 

[Storm Force]

Orangzeib.

WHEN WILL, you get into your brain THAT USA and PAKISTAN are no longer LONG TERM allays.

WHEN WILL you learn that USA has its NOSE right up the rear of INDIA.S arse.

120 F16 are sanction prone.

AND YES currently there is a USA/ISRAELI/INDIA nexus & its growing

10 years AGO there was not a single bullet from USA in the indian arnmed forces

today there is the follwing

jet engines for TEJAS general electric

apache helos gun ships

USA is no longer the sole ally of Pakistan THEY HAVE A NEW BULWARK against china and that is INDIA your enemy

YOUR F16s are going to be sanctioned threatened