Scores dead in Mumbai train bombs

[Awesome]

Let me be blunt here.

What did you expect or want from your enemies?

To chill out! I mean hey if there IS a Pakistani group behind this I'd like them behind bars too. Our president declared it as our national policy that no outfit (he used the words Jaysh or Lashkars - both meaning armies)would be allowed to launch activities on foreign soil. If anyone of them has done it's violated Pakistani law.

But India is making it about us. The common people or the government of Pakistan. That's a non-starter. Even when India almost went to war with us in 2002, India was offered coop in carrying a joint investigation. India gave us demands in return.

So what do we want? Seriously Chill out and work towards a solution. Right now they seem more worried in tainting us as barbarics rather than working towards finding the culprits.

 

[Samudra]

Lashkar is not threatening anybody.They have not been banned.

- Musharaff, in a interview.

 

[Awesome]

Not sure if the question is addressed to Asim but please allow me to answer.
I appreciate the directness, we can have an honest debate here.


You mean India or the USA?
Regardless the public sentiment in Pakistan the US was never considered to be an enemy, on the contrary we've always had high level diplomatic ties with eachother even during the sanctions.
What we want?
Mutual trust and equal treatment as to our counterpart.

India...thats a different story. She outsizes us in each and every field yet always felt intimidated by us.
We parted as enemies not as brothers, found ourselves in different camps during the cold war and have failed big times to solve issues in 58 years of our existance.
India has the desire to be the sole major power in the region, she wants full controll of SA and only country standing in her way is Pakistan and we're growing powerful.

She'll do anything to slow us down.
Thats what I expact from her!

We want a solution for Kashmir and nothing more from her.

Hmmm I didn't even figure he'd be pitting US as an enemy... I just assumed he'd be talking about India. Ever since the War on Terror has begun, there's an almost inbuilt desire to view the Muslims as the enemy, regardless of the nation, their policy etc. Quite unfortunate and needless.

Lol, we can't even argue it, they'd charge us with practicing Taqqiyah, regardless it'd be a term that I first even heard of over at WAB! It's more of a "You're just pretending to be moderates, who are you deep down inside?". Not entirely for you OoE, you've been alright regardless of your opinion of me. Just recounting personal experiences of late.

 

[Awesome]

Lashkar is not threatening anybody.They have not been banned.

- Musharaff, in a interview.

I asked for a link not a quote.

The reason I ask is that they were asked to cease activities after the Dec 26 attacks on India and then they declared Jihad on Pakistan too in a statement. This aspect hasn't gotten much publicity.

Then early or mid January they were banned too. If Musharraf was interviewed before his presidency then I'm sure he would've said that. However Musharraf did ban the more notorious groups of the past like the Jaysh soon after he overthrew Nawaz Sharif.

Which is another evidence that Pakistan had started fighting against militant groups much before Sept 11 and America's involvements.

 

[Neo]

Hmmm I didn't even figure he'd be pitting US as an enemy... I just assumed he'd be talking about India. Ever since the War on Terror has begun, there's an almost inbuilt desire to view the Muslims as the enemy, regardless of the nation, their policy etc. Quite unfortunate and needless.

Its time for us to get international attention to the indeigenious struggle of Kashmir and define terrorism.

India has sucessfully profitted from the 9/11 events by playing the victom.
Islamophobia is an effective weapon today.

If State sponsord terrorism is justified in Kashmir then she should not be whining about the consequences...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting the blasts in India.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

As of this moment, I think you guys are expecting too much. I'm just hoping enough people keep their heads as to avoid a full scale war.

Sam is one of the cooler head guys I know but even he would not object to bombing every LeT HQ in Pakistan. In fact, I would think he would encourage it.

 

[Jay_]

Its time for us to get international attention to the indeigenious struggle of Kashmir and define terrorism.

Wait, you have been trying that for 17 odd years. This was the main reason cited for Kargil. If no one cares about it after so many attempts, has it ever occured to you that what you think is wrong?

India has sucessfully profitted from the 9/11 events by playing the victom. Islamophobia is an effective weapon today.

Really? Tell me how India profitted from it. Infact Pakistan is the major benefactor in WoT.
1. Money
2. Mushraff cemented his place, became a President from dictator.
3. Started military actions against its own population in Balochistan and FATA.

If State sponsord terrorism is justified in Kashmir then she should not be whining about the consequences...

So you do agree that Bombay blasts happen coz of Kashmiri terrorists??

Let me ask you, if a group of Iranis bomb Islamabad and Karachi killing 1000's asking for Balochi independence, I guess thats fine with you? Right?

There is a phrase in our language, "mottai kaalukkum mulangalukkum mudichu podaradhu". Thats exactly in line with your thinking.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting the blasts in India.

I'm not supporting one in Pakistan either, but if its indeed Pakistan based terrorists responsible for the blast, expect it in kind.

 

[Awesome]

As of this moment, I think you guys are expecting too much. I'm just hoping enough people keep their heads as to avoid a full scale war.

Sam is one of the cooler head guys I know but even he would not object to bombing every LeT HQ in Pakistan. In fact, I would think he would encourage it.

Indians just like to talk big since it gives them a feeling of being at parity with the US. The US was attacked and it went to Afghanistan.

Indians would want to attack Pakistan on the same theme, not for any specific provable reason. India is no US and Pak is no Afghanistan.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Indians just like to talk big since it gives them a feeling of being at parity with the US. The US was attacked and it went to Afghanistan.

Oh give it a rest, Asim. The US took on the British Empire, the Spanish Empire, the German Empire, and the Imperial Japanese Empire, not to mention the Communist Chinese, the Vietnamese, Iraq, Iran, the Serbs, and then Afghanistan.

Indians would want to attack Pakistan on the same theme, not for any specific provable reason. India is no US and Pak is no Afghanistan.

And you don't see the danger? It would be a much bloodier fight with the blood lust high. Just how fast was Kragil spinning out of control?

 

[Awesome]

Oh give it a rest, Asim. The US took on the British Empire, the Spanish Empire, the German Empire, and the Imperial Japanese Empire, not to mention the Communist Chinese, the Vietnamese, Iraq, Iran, the Serbs, and then Afghanistan.



And you don't see the danger? It would be a much bloodier fight with the blood lust high. Just how fast was Kragil spinning out of control?

What I'm trying to say is, they just want PR. They won't ever do it. They'd gain a lot more from PR, and will play it on for a long time.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

You mean like the way we used to do it across the Iron Curtain? You're determined to repeat our mistakes.

 

[Awesome]

You mean like the way we used to do it across the Iron Curtain? You're determined to repeat our mistakes.

It's also called a cold war. Similarities are there but there's hardly any avoidance to it till there are no talks.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Do you have any idea how many times it nearly got hot? We avoided it by sheer **** blind luck.

So, you're telling me that you're relying on luck to avoid a nuclear war.

 

[Samudra]

The local government is pro taliban, PA has no authority in major parts of the territries. Can Pakistan afford a civil war just to satisfy US, Canada or any other country??

Oh Neo, there would be no Taliban but for Pakistan today.
Forgetting the Konduz airlift are we?

Pakistan has to fight a civil war for itself, its citizens and not to satisfy US,Canada or any other country.That is if Pakistanis want their country to be a democratic, modern nation and not some Islamic theocratic Mullah run country.

The fact that many people are actually reluctant to recognise this and pretend that they are forced to fight the scum due to external pressure will lead us to percieve that you're in bed with the terrorists.

We can't afford to fight it for others on their terms when we have internal issues to solve which are directly linked with it.

Only Pakistans army is to be blamed for your internal issues.
Dont let another B haunt you guys.

Its not the fault of the external entity.They see the scum to be coming from Pak and when they see the source somehow leads to Pakistani army and the terrorists in bed some decades ago they surely have reason to put pressure on Paksitan.

At best, they can have a little sympathy with the Pakistan Government.But none of that nonsense will stop them from asking the right questions when their countries get bombed.

The responsiblity to dealing with the trouble makers rests squarely on Pakistan.No excuses are not going to be enough.

You **know** what happened to the murderer of Daniel Pearl and why he was killed.I will not want to push it any further.

I will actually be astonished to know that you while living in Amsterdam cannot see what the games the ISI and PA are upto inside your own country.

She'll do anything to slow us down.
Thats what I expact from her!

Indeed.
That is why we sent a bus to Lahore and got a Kargil in return.
The MFN status and the CII delegates we sent once to consider setting up offices in Pak *exclusively* for exporting stuff from Pakistan are all designed to finish off Pakistan?

History, upon scrutiny, will tell us how **every time*** India attempted peace your Generals take fullest advantage of it to grab power in Pakistan.

Look at your Generals.
They're fooling you and your nation.

Every day you fail to see the Pakistani Army looting your country and countrymen sends one more Pakistani kid who ought to be studying in a engineering college to a madrassa where he will be taught to kill kaffirs.

Every day you talk about Kashmir drains one bit of Pakistani potential to be give its people a better life and redirects the wealth into the hands of arms agents and Rawalpindi bungalows.

The status of regions under Pak control are well documented.Lets not kid ourselves that the PA is in tears for the Kashmiris.We know what happened in the late 80s and with whose help certain violence was spread against a certain community.

At the end of the day, it is for the people of Pakistan to make a decision.

It is THEY who have to decide if they want to prosper, if they want to respect their dead NLI and not get fooled by the antics of a General who sends his family to the US to live safely even as thousands of poor soldiers die believing they're fighting for a genuine cause and help protect their nation.

What honor is left in a country which fails to see the sacrifices made by the NLI and chooses to praise the costumes of the President who helped slaughter them?

It is rather funny that it is an INDIAN(actually angry at his adversary for having killed 200 of his fellow countrymen) who recognises the perils the **people of Pakistan** have to face because of their army and it is he who is actually asking the Pakistanis to stop their army from sending **their kids** to madrassas.

If the Pakistanis are going to keep quiet about Mudrikes, am I to think that they actually want their kids to be suicide bombers and jihadis?

It is an Indian who is talking about respecting the dead NLI who fought for *their country*.

It is an Indian in me that wants the Pakistani kids to go to colleges and not one Pakistani ever seemed to care about the madrassas in Mudrike!

But, I think I know my words are not going to help any.
I will be shown the Kashmere lecture again and people are actually going to want to define terrorism so that their kids can now be 'legal ' terrorists or freedom fighters.

 

[Awesome]

Do you have any idea how many times it nearly got hot?

Read about the cuban missile crisis in American History class.

So, you're telling me that you're relying on luck to avoid a nuclear war.

Deterrents.

As long as we're conventionally able to ward off an Indian invasion, by procuring more weaponry it would never escalate to war. India would not attack without a chance to be SURE that it would win.

Pak on the other hand has a policy of not attacking India first. Even historically any action from the Pak government has been limited to launching offences towards Kashmir.

So good aggressive policies and detterrents are how we'd avoid war. It won't go nuclear as long as there's no war.

But do you have your own proposals as to what should be happening?