SCO steps out of Central Asia

[muse]

Thank you Riseup for a series of super articles - We have been saying for a while that Indians should reconsider hostility towards China and Pakistan must reconsider hostility towards India -- Some here have argued that the SCO does not have economic significance, however, if our forum member S2, is reading, perhaps the idea of "way of life" which we have tried to get US readers to consider with regard to their relations with Muslim majority countries role in the economic resurgence of the US, imay now being viewed with the urgency it deserves. -- The SCO has great economic significance, if Pakistan and India are accepted and Iran agrees to formulations that see it return to the fold as a nation state and less of a ideological (read theocratic) country, then the SCO will represent not only the majority of humanity, but the largest contiguous market in the world, this coupled with the inability to come to grips with the US financial crisis can have existential consequences for the US Dollar as an international medium of exchange, indeed, if the Southern European financial crisis encompasses Italy, Spain and Portugal as well, the Euro may also go the way of the Dodo and the need for a new source of confidence become more urgent.

One can only hope there are persons in Pakistan and India who can see beyond this petty, idiot rivalry, there are bigger fish to fry and more than billion persons to bring out of poverty and allow them to contribute to the world economy.

 

[Hulk]

Thank you Riseup for a series of super articles - We have been saying for a while that Indians should reconsider hostility towards China and Pakistan must reconsider hostility towards India -- Some here have argued that the SCO does not have economic significance, however, if our forum member S2, is reading, perhaps the idea of "way of life" which we have tried to get US readers to consider with regard to their relations with Muslim majority countries role in the economic resurgence of the US, imay now being viewed with the urgency it deserves. -- The SCO has great economic significance, if Pakistan and India are accepted and Iran agrees to formulations that see it return to the fold as a nation state and less of a ideological (read theocratic) country, then the SCO will represent not only the majority of humanity, but the largest contiguous market in the world, this coupled with the inability to come to grips with the US financial crisis can have existential consequences for the US Dollar as an international medium of exchange, indeed, if the Southern European financial crisis encompasses Italy, Spain and Portugal as well, the Euro may also go the way of the Dodo and the need for a new source of confidence become more urgent.

One can only hope there are persons in Pakistan and India who can see beyond this petty, idiot rivalry, there are bigger fish to fry and more than billion persons to bring out of poverty and allow them to contribute to the world economy.

I know where you are going and agreed it will help everyone. However for this to really happen Pakistan has to become practical.
India was attacked in the past many times, but now that is past and we have moved on, similarly Pakistan has to move on accept that what is today is reality and that cannot be changed. Once this is done, we can convert LOC into border and there will be no issues.

 

[muse]

I know where you are going and agreed it will help everyone. However for this to really happen Pakistan has to become practical.
India was attacked in the past many times, but now that is past and we have moved on, similarly Pakistan has to move on accept that what is today is reality and that cannot be changed. Once this is done, we can convert LOC into border and there will be no issues.

Indeed, we must all move on - few will accept Indians playing Israeli and imposing conditions on all, before there is movement - we must ALL move on -

 

[Hulk]

Indeed, we must all move on - few will accept Indians playing Israeli and imposing conditions on all, before there is movement - we must ALL move on -

Dude trust me, if Pakistan leaves the aggressive attitude and moves forward with talk and creates peace with India, there will be more Indians who will accept a compromise. The fact is for compromise to happen lasting peace is needed. If you keep fighting, then aggression will not let the peace happen.

Both sides needs to make sure that they reduce the animosity and hate from their society, at-least try it. I can see we are not practical and there is a lot of false propaganda that is spread from both sides which does not help. The common people fall for it and thinks the other side is evil and cannot be trusted. The fact is both sides have humans and they behave like one.

 

[Meengla]

Indeed, we must all move on - few will accept Indians playing Israeli and imposing conditions on all, before there is movement - we must ALL move on -

In concrete terms, Pakistan must accept LoC = International Border after ensuring justice for all Kashmiris--including the Pundits--and Pakistan's water rights. If that solution is too bitter, too sudden, then at least 'shelve' the issue.

As I see it, India is not Pakistan's main threat. It is the forces which come from far-away for their own strategic reasons. These forces have very little to lose if their commercial interests are not met. They can pack up and leave anytime. Even 'terrorism' can be controlled by strict immigration controls, profiling, surveillance etc. We know that the 9/11 attackers were tracked for months/years even in those relatively relaxed days. We need to give these people the graceful exit from our region. We wish them well to improve their own citizens' lives.

However, if we allow them freedom to 'divide and rule' then we are the fools.

 

[PakShah]

In concrete terms, Pakistan must accept LoC = International Border after ensuring justice for all Kashmiris--including the Pundits--and Pakistan's water rights. If that solution is too bitter, too sudden, then at least 'shelve' the issue.

As I see it, India is not Pakistan's main threat. It is the forces which come from far-away for their own strategic reasons. These forces have very little to lose if their commercial interests are not met. They can pack up and leave anytime. Even 'terrorism' can be controlled by strict immigration controls, profiling, surveillance etc. We know that the 9/11 attackers were tracked for months/years even in those relatively relaxed days. We need to give these people the graceful exit from our region. We wish them well to improve their own citizens' lives.

However, if we allow them freedom to 'divide and rule' then we are the fools.

You can't be serious about accepting LOC as the international border, thats ludricous and injust.
Most Pakistanis and sane people will not accept this.
Why doesn't China accept Arunachal Pradesh as part of India, because that would injust also.
You are indeed an oddball.

 

[muse]

LoC as Intl border -- well, let that be a subject for civil negotiations - why preordain the results of the possible negotiations? Lets take it easy with this "MUST" this and "MUST" that?

Pakistan and India can have a bright future with brother China - lets all keep that in mind without this "Must" business - we are not playing Palestinians for anybody, it's a losing gamed for all -- I mean look at the experience for yourselves -- lets keep our focus, if negotiations come up with LoC or something else, so be it - lets never imagine that we can first get results of negotiations and then the negotiations, after all, we are neither of us Israeli.

 

[Paan Singh]

the point is that india's borrowing more than Pakistan's relative to its gdp.

india isnt going to go 8% every year for the next 20 years. pakistan too will have its day when the wot finishes.

every country thinks their situation is alright, they're growing they can borrow. look what happened to greece. the prediction that india will cross the 4 trillion mark within 3-4 years is stupid. just get passed 2 triillion. after that many things will start to play a role. you may never get to 3 trillion at all.

so if pakistan is on the brink of collapse, india would be the same.

 

[PakShah]

LoC as Intl border -- well, let that be a subject for civil negotiations - why preordain the results of the possible negotiations? Lets take it easy with this "MUST" this and "MUST" that?

Pakistan and India can have a bright future with brother China - lets all keep that in mind without this "Must" business - we are not playing Palestinians for anybody, it's a losing gamed for all -- I mean look at the experience for yourselves -- lets keep our focus, if negotiations come up with LoC or something else, so be it - lets never imagine that we can first get results of negotiations and then the negotiations, after all, we are neither of us Israeli.

Not quite sure how you got into Think Tank, but accepting LOC as international border is stupid and injust, and that would be accepting Indian aggression.

Chinese never gave up their claim on Arunachal, this implies they want to take it back one day, when the time is right.
In my opinion you are just one those people "who gives up."
Nobody can give up their rights to be treated with moral and just principles.
And the Kashmiris are still fighting for their rights. Its the right of the Kashmiris to treated with just and moral principles.

 

[indushek]

Not quite sure how you got into Think Tank, but accepting LOC as international border is stupid and injust, and that would be accepting Indian aggression.

Chinese never gave up their claim on Arunachal, this implies they want to take it back one day, when the time is right.
In my opinion you are just one those people "who gives up."
Nobody can give up their rights to be treated with moral and just principles.
And the Kashmiris are still fighting for their rights. Its the right of the Kashmiris to treated with just and moral principles.

Do u have any comprehension problems in English language??

All he is saying is that let us not pre decide any such solutions and concentrate on cooperation between us three. If in future the solution is decided as LOC being the border then so be it but no pre conclusions on this issue. Is it so hard to understand??

 

[PakShah]

Do u have any comprehension problems in English language??

All he is saying is that let us not pre decide any such solutions and concentrate on cooperation between us three. If in future the solution is decided as LOC being the border then so be it but no pre conclusions on this issue. Is it so hard to understand??

Well you see, I think the LOC cannot be an option.
Do you have comprehension problems in English?


How would LOC be decided to be the international border? muse is implying that one day LOC as international border may be acceptable to Pakistan, I don't think his ideas is correct.
It has been 63 years, and the Kashmir dispute is not yet resolved.


What would make Pakistan change their mind?

So my conclusion is:
LOC as international border is not acceptable to Pakistan.

 

[roadrunner]

The LoC isn't an acceptable solution as it is division of Kashmir.

Plebiscite for Kashmiris (the Northern Areas are not Kashmiri) is the obvious solution. Self determination, a basic right especially in a super-duper democracy.

 

[muse]

Can't see THE Forest for the trees?-- Pakistan could not exist because it meant that India would be divided??

Anyway, these are diversions -- SCO can help Pakistan and India to come closer, not just to each other but to offer the rest of Asia, from the South West, to the North, to the South to the Far East, an opportunity to connect in such a way as to reverse the predation Asia had fallen victim to -- on the other hand, it may well be that radicals who see 1000 years of war with India, may carry the day in Pakistan, which in turn would mean that Pakistan will be on a fast burn to oblivion.

We do not have the details of the negotiations the SCO will hold with Pakistan and India - so lets not get carried away with all this demarcation stuff just yet.

 

[PakShah]

Can't see THE Forest for the trees?-- Pakistan could not exist because it meant that India would be divided??

Anyway, these are diversions -- SCO can help Pakistan and India to come closer, not just to each other but to offer the rest of Asia, from the South West, to the North, to the South to the Far East, an opportunity to connect in such a way as to reverse the predation Asia had fallen victim to -- on the other hand, it may well be that radicals who see 1000 years of war with India, may carry the day in Pakistan, which in turn would mean that Pakistan will be on a fast burn to oblivion.

We do not have the details of the negotiations the SCO will hold with Pakistan and India - so lets not get carried away with all this demarcation stuff just yet.

Don't give us your forest for the trees and partition nonsense. Please get to the point.
If you think accepting LoC as international border is an option, that is a traitorous idea and that would also be betraying the Kashmiri people.

 

[Peshwa]

Can't see THE Forest for the trees?-- Pakistan could not exist because it meant that India would be divided??

Anyway, these are diversions -- SCO can help Pakistan and India to come closer, not just to each other but to offer the rest of Asia, from the South West, to the North, to the South to the Far East, an opportunity to connect in such a way as to reverse the predation Asia had fallen victim to -- on the other hand, it may well be that radicals who see 1000 years of war with India, may carry the day in Pakistan, which in turn would mean that Pakistan will be on a fast burn to oblivion.

We do not have the details of the negotiations the SCO will hold with Pakistan and India - so lets not get carried away with all this demarcation stuff just yet.

Intriguing concept...

I concur....Let the "Berlin wall" be built only to let people decide for themselves to bring it down....

i would be comfortable with that reality knowing it will come down one day.....