Saudi spy chief Bandar bin Sultan insults Qataris

[kalu_miah]

Well, that is exactly the problem. I for once believe that the Americans will be against a expanding GCC. For example if Iraq (as some Iraqi politicians want) wanted to join and the GCC member states agreed (all of them) they would fear a strong Arab organization. If Yemen, Jordan and Morocco etc. also joined then it would only be worse. So they would probably try to play out the states against each other. But one should also be cautious about all those conspiracy theories. What is certain though is that the USA as any other world power is afraid/against competitors and a united Arab world would be one at least in terms of natural resources, landmass, strategic location, potential etc.
The solution is more cooperation at least between Arab states, maybe new governments and most importantly the new young generation to enter the scene of decision making to influence societies.
Obviously education, economic prosperity etc.
Maybe the Sunni world and the Shia world could unite or have better relations one day even? Unfortunately I only see that happening if both parties faced a common enemy.
Besides the USA are not that harmful again if the countries are not anti-American for no reason. Better cooperation with China could also balance things out. Which I and many other Arabs are big proponents of.
Anyway what do we know as you say? We can only wait and see. But if Europe can unite at least politically and economically then our region could also do it.
But we see the same rivalries and tensions in Asia (India-Pakistan, India-China, China-Japan etc.), Africa, South America, Central America etc. Fair to say that this is human nature.

Anway I think that Bandar bin Sultan's comment, if true (he is that kind of person that could actually say it) is rather funny. He is quite a character no doubt about it.

Interesting discussion bro. If I may interject, I think it is possible to make changes in small ways, without rocking the boat too much. We don't need to go for big unions initially, that may sound threatening to US and others.

The way forward is to work on joint projects and develop a common military hardware specification and platform.

The problem for us is that most Muslim countries are either too small or even we are big in population, we have negligible resources.

You saw that I made a very specific proposal about 5th gen. fighter project. This could be a first step. GCC countries could get together and make a decision to invest lets say 20 billion in this joint 5th gen. fighter project, with Japan, Turkey and South Korea as tech partners, whereas Indonesia and GCC states will share financing as well as buy a number of these planes:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/middle...outh-korean-fighter-planes-7.html#post4754494

And then behind the scenes, we could start working on ASEAN+ idea:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/180755-geopolitics-asean-region.html
Perhaps GCC+ ideas will be ready when we have made some progress on ASEAN+. All diplomatic work could be done within the framework of bilateral relations or changes in ASEAN membership etc.

All elements are there to get it done. If I am in touch with the right person, I could share ideas to proceed. For a thousand mile journey, there is always the first step that has to be taken.

 

[al-Hasani]

Interesting discussion bro. If I may interject, I think it is possible to make changes in small ways, without rocking the boat too much. We don't need to go for big unions initially, that may sound threatening to US and others.

The way forward is to work on joint projects and develop a common military hardware specification and platform.

The problem for us is that most Muslim countries are either too small or even we are big in population, we have negligible resources.

You saw that I made a very specific proposal about 5th gen. fighter project. This could be a first step. GCC countries could get together and make a decision to invest lets say 20 billion in this joint 5th gen. fighter project, with Japan, Turkey and South Korea as tech partners, whereas Indonesia and GCC states will share financing as well as buy a number of these planes:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/middle...outh-korean-fighter-planes-7.html#post4754494

And then behind the scenes, we could start working on ASEAN+ idea:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/180755-geopolitics-asean-region.html
Perhaps GCC+ ideas will be ready when we have made some progress on ASEAN+. All diplomatic work could be done within the framework of bilateral relations or changes in ASEAN membership etc.

All elements are there to get it done. If I am in touch with the right person, I could share ideas to proceed. For a thousand mile journey, there is always the first step that has to be taken.

Of course the dream is a united Muslim world and not only Arab. United not necessarily meaning redrawing borders or sharing the same culture, language, view etc. But a unity based on the rule of dignity, of the people, of cooperation, peace and mutual understanding and cooperation. To the interest of us all.
In fact EVERY Muslim person/country should work towards that otherwise we will never be truly independent. Let every Muslim that read this think about it for one second. No single Muslim country is strong enough to compete with USA alone and be some kind of watchdog/guidance for the rest of us. Instead all Muslim countries are fighting to become that. Instead of truly helping each other.

Why is Europe and the West so succcesful compared to us in this time and age. Before we were far ahead of them but what make us lose that position? Was it because we lost our resources or because we are not the same as our ancestors that showed us the light? What is it?
We have discussed this many times. But instead of thinking about the past as we often do then we should follow your advice and move forward. Unfortunately there are internal and external elements that make this very difficult.

I really wish that my generation would be an exception and that we could change the power balance. Some say ok, then leave Islam, become fully secular and just forget about your roots. I say, why? Did we Muslims not have civilizations that were the most powerful in the world once? Or certainly among them? Yes we had. Then why can't we do it again? What is keeping us back? If we had the full answer to that then we will not be here sitting and discussing it.

I am afraid that the mentally is wrong. Something is wrong. I can't pinpoint it precisely. Oh, not saying that the West is perfect far from it. But at least they are better to cooperate and help each other mutually. Why the hell is Qatar making enemies including KSA? Why? What is the exact reason? Do they dream about conquering us all? Are their rulers complete and utter idiots? Why is Iran doing something similar with all this meddling and trying to export their Wilayat al Faqih nonsense that is alien to all countries even fellow Shias? We are supposedly very selfish people. More than most. No other answer.
I would like to hear your thoughts on this bro and others.

 

[kalu_miah]

Of course the dream is a united Muslim world and not only Arab. United not necessarily meaning redrawing borders or sharing the same culture, language, view etc. But a unity based on the rule of dignity, of the people, of cooperation, peace and mutual understanding and cooperation. To the interest of us all.
In fact EVERY Muslim person/country should work towards that otherwise we will never be truly independent. Let every Muslim that read this think about it for one second. No single Muslim country is strong enough to compete with USA alone and be some kind of watchdog/guidance for the rest of us. Instead all Muslim countries are fighting to become that. Instead of truly helping each other.

Why is Europe and the West so succcesful compared to us in this time and age. Before we were far ahead of them but what make us lose that position? Was it because we lost our resources or because we are not the same as our ancestors that showed us the light? What is it?
We have discussed this many times. But instead of thinking about the past as we often do then we should follow your advice and move forward. Unfortunately there are internal and external elements that make this very difficult.

I really wish that my generation would be an exception and that we could change the power balance. Some say ok, then leave Islam, become fully secular and just forget about your roots. I say, why? Did we Muslims not have civilizations that were the most powerful in the world once? Or certainly among them? Yes we had. Then why can't we do it again? What is keeping us back? If we had the full answer to that then we will not be here sitting and discussing it.

I am afraid that the mentally is wrong. Something is wrong. I can't pinpoint it precisely. Oh, not saying that the West is perfect far from it. But at least they are better to cooperate and help each other mutually. Why the hell is Qatar making enemies including KSA? Why? What is the exact reason? Do they dream about conquering us all? Are their rulers complete and utter idiots? Why is Iran doing something similar with all this meddling and trying to export their Wilayat al Faqih nonsense that is alien to all countries even fellow Shias? We are supposedly very selfish people. More than most. No other answer.
I would like to hear your thoughts on this bro and others.

Unity is a good sounding word, but it does not mean much, unless it brings concrete benefits. That is why I mentioned concrete projects, where all sides can benefit, such as the 5th gen. fighter project. And unity should be for not just Muslim countries, we need unity of small nations of the world.

I do not think Shia and Sunni will unite, at least not Iran. Iran has backing of Russia and China. At this juncture of history you can work only between Muslim and other nations that are under Western umbrella or at least friendly with the West. So Iraq is a possibility. Iran is a pariah state under Western sanctions, so they are out of question. All nations I mentioned are in the Western camp:

- Japan, South Korea - has technology and industrial base and has ATD-X and KAI-KFX project
- Turkey - inferior to above, but still has minimum tech and industrial base and the highest in this regard among Muslim countries, thinking of spending $120 billion total for TAI-TFX project
- Indonesia - biggest Muslim country, medium economy and has some defense budget, already promised to support 20% of KAI-KFX project
- GCC states has Sovereign Wealth Fund worth around $2 trillion and they are ready market for about 400 fighters

If GCC states approach the 4 countries above with a proposal to bring the 3 (ATD-X, KFX and TFX) separate projects into one common project, on condition that Japan rewrites its constitution removing export restriction of weapon, then I think we have win-win among all these countries. Will the US want to put road block, sure. But when so many of US allies want to do a common shared project and its not something illegal, it is free trade after all, then I doubt they can stop it, if there is public and govt. support from the countries involved.

@Yzd Khalifa @Arabian Legend @Sinan @T-123456 What do you think?

 

[al-Hasani]

Unity is a good sounding word, but it does not mean much, unless it brings concrete benefits. That is why I mentioned concrete projects, where all sides can benefit, such as the 5th gen. fighter project. And unity should be for not just Muslim countries, we need unity of small nations of the world.

I do not think Shia and Sunni will unite, at least not Iran. Iran has backing of Russia and China. At this juncture of history you can work only between Muslim and other nations that are under Western umbrella or at least friendly with the West. So Iraq is a possibility. Iran is a pariah state under Western sanctions, so they are out of question. All nations I mentioned are in the Western camp:

- Japan, South Korea - has technology and industrial base and has ATD-X and KAI-KFX project
- Turkey - inferior to above, but still has minimum tech and industrial base and the highest in this regard among Muslim countries, thinking of spending $120 billion total for TAI-TFX project
- Indonesia - biggest Muslim country, medium economy and has some defense budget, already promised to support 20% of KAI-KFX project
- GCC states has Sovereign Wealth Fund worth around $2 trillion and they are ready market for about 400 fighters

If GCC states approach the 4 countries above with a proposal to bring the 3 (ATD-X, KFX and TFX) separate projects into one common project, on condition that Japan rewrites its constitution removing export restriction of weapon, then I think we have win-win among all these countries. Will the US want to put road block, sure. But when so many of US allies want to do a common shared project and its not something illegal, it is free trade after all, then I doubt they can stop it, if there is public and govt. support from the countries involved.

@Yzd Khalifa @Arabian Legend @Sinan @T-123456 What do you think?

Sure, I was just talking in general. It is only words, bro. I discussed this issue a few times before with varies users here and we all had concrete ideas.
Of course that pariah state is not included nor do most of us Muslims even consider their rule Muslim or the Mullah lunatics that rule them to be examples to follow. Rather the opposite.
China has quite good relations with many Arab and Muslim countries. Don't forget that. GCC-Chinese relations are quite good and constantly expanding.
Russia? That is another discussion altogether although I don't consider them at the level of China in terms of importance at all. Besides Russia has a sizable Muslim population (fully Sunni) that will always be sympathetic to us Muslims and our lands. That can be used to our advantage as before in history.
Your proposal is realistic and very good actually. If I may add something. The USA would not necessarily see it as a problem if they would benefit from it. For each day they lose their mighty status they had since WW2 as China and other emerging economies are threatening their hegemony.
There is no doubt that USA will continue to want to play a role in the Arab/Muslim world no matter what happens and that should be used to our advantage as well. As it already is to some extent.
I am very happy about further cooperation with Indonesia and the improved Arab-Turkish ties. Gives another dynamic to the region.
Contrary to what many trolls say on this forum then Bangladesh is also a very important piece in all this or at least can become that with the right leadership, investments etc.

 

[kalu_miah]

Sure, I was just talking in general. It is only words, bro. I discussed this issue a few times before with varies users here and we all had concrete ideas.
Of course that pariah state is not included nor do most of us Muslims even consider their rule Muslim or the Mullah lunatics that rule them to be examples to follow. Rather the opposite.
China has quite good relations with many Arab and Muslim countries. Don't forget that. GCC-Chinese relations are quite good and constantly expanding.
Russia? That is another discussion altogether although I don't consider them at the level of China in terms of importance at all. Besides Russia has a sizable Muslim population (fully Sunni) that will always be sympathetic to us Muslims and our lands. That can be used to our advantage as before in history.
Your proposal is realistic and very good actually. If I may add something. The USA would not necessarily see it as a problem if they would benefit from it. For each day they lose their mighty status they had since WW2 as China and other emerging economies are threatening their hegemony.
There is no doubt that USA will continue to want to play a role in the Arab/Muslim world no matter what happens and that should be used to our advantage as well. As it already is to some extent.
I am very happy about further cooperation with Indonesia and the improved Arab-Turkish ties. Gives another dynamic to the region.
Contrary to what many trolls say on this forum then Bangladesh is also a very important piece in all this or at least can become that with the right leadership, investments etc.

Bro, in the long term, both Russia and China are important for Muslims, no question. Specially once US led NATO looses their looming cold war with China, which will happen in 2-4 decades.

But before that point, essentially most of us are in the US led NATO camp and we should make the most of it, transferring and developing as much indigenous technology as possible. Japan and South Korea are also in US camp, mainly because they are threatened by China and by the little Chinese pet poodle or pit bull, North Korea. What is special about Japan and South Korea is that they have highly developed industrial base, even much more advanced than China or Russia.

So right now before us there is this opportunity to bring all these countries together combining ATD-X, TFX and KFX projects, make it into a single project with fighters of two different price levels, thus save money and at the same time develop a common standard for many small nations of the world. Similar projects can be looked at for Tanks, Howitzers, APC etc. If many of these small nations can have the same military hardware, then it will be easier for these nations to create new Asian security alliances like NATO.

As for Bangladesh, may be we will buy a few dozen of the cheaper version of the plane ($50 million a piece) and some associated UCAV's. The main thing we would be interested in is a new alliance bloc called ASEAN+ (ASEAN+Japan+South Korea+North Korea+Bangladesh+Sri Lanka+PNG+East Timor), under US Asia pivot plan, so many of these countries can be efficiently managed by Japan and Korean personnel. This Japan led independent power bloc with large 400 million Muslim population (Indonesia+Malaysia+Brunei+Bangladesh) can easily become more independent of China and also provide security guarantee for GCC states and thus reduce the need for dependence on the USA. This will then help GCC to integrate more and become like a single state from Iraq to Yemen and also help Arab states in Maghreb to integrate their roads, railways and economies.

Pakistan is very close to China and shares many technical partnership with China, so I am not sure if they would like to participate in these projects, jeopardizing their good relations with China.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

chalo .. I deleted .. dont want to upset @Yzd Khalifa

If I may, what was the thing you said that may have upseted me?

No offense but chief should change his first name

Sorry bro, it isn't our problem that Bander in Urdu means monkey..

 

[livingdead]

If I may, what was the thing you said that may have upseted me?



Sorry bro, it isn't our problem that Bander in Urdu means monkey..

i said nothing just posted his pic

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

i said nothing just posted his pic

.____. Why did you remove it .-.?

 

[Rafael]

Bandar is acting like a Bandar

 

[Hyperion]

Annex them... or someone else will do it.... trust me, they are throwing punches way beyond what they can handle...... if someone else, someday, gets totally effed up with them, 500,000 deaths isn't even considered a genocide, it's just 'significant' number of people dead.

The fat fukk, just like daddy piggy needs to bite the dust, that too pretty soon.

Qatar might be a small country (actually in terms of area it is not THAT small compared to many other countries in the world) and have a small local population (I believe that the local Qataris number 500.000 and not 250.000) but it is a IMMENSELY rich country. They have the highest GDP per capita in the whole world.

Look at their gas reserves. It is insane for such a small country.

So all this wealth and clever leadership in terms of promoting such a small country (look at Al-Jazeera, Qatar foundation etc.) gives them great influence compared to their size and population.

In fact no other country of that size and population yield such a big influence.

The differences between us and Qatar are well-known but at the end of the day they will follow our party line or be forced to. After the Emir was removed they have gone more quite. They are still part of the GCC though.

Would you want us to annex them though? I personally regret that they are not part of us due to all their riches.

 

[al-Hasani]

Annex them... or someone else will do it.... trust me, they are throwing punches way beyond what they can handle...... if someone else, someday, gets totally effed up with them, 500,000 deaths isn't even considered a genocide, it's just 'significant' number of people dead.

The fat fukk, just like daddy piggy needs to bite the dust, that too pretty soon.

Too risky when Uncle Sam is still controlling the seas. Personally I would love to annex not only Qatar but also Bahrain and UAE. I don't know which legitimacy they have as countries other than being part of the ancient Dilmun civilization, the historical Greater Bahrain region or Eastern Arabia. All of those areas are mostly located in the modern day Eastern Province of KSA. We can add Kuwait to that list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilmun

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahrain_(historical_region)

 

[Sinnerman108]

Good going @Bandar !

 

[Takaavar]

Personally I would love to annex not only Qatar but also Bahrain and UAE.

Instead of sitting somewhere and dream in your head about annexing oil and gas fields, why don't you people start becoming hard-working people? Look at the Japanese, no oil, no natural resources. I just read "Saudi Arabia" entry in urbandictionary.com, two of them are my favorites and are really true:

A "holy kingdom" run by the corrupt Saudi family, who in 1922, boastfully named the land after themselves.
Kicked out the Hashemite king who once owned their holy cities of Makkah (Mecca) and Medina. His descendant is the current King of Jordan.

Saudi Arabia's main economy is oil production, which is very fortunate. All they have to do is sit back, pray to Allah to pump their oil, and millions of barrels are produced a day.
A country that promotes oppression and hinders human rights.
Full name: al-Mamlakah Arabiyah Assaudiyah

"I want to go to Saudi Arabia for the summer".
-"Sure, if you like seeing injustice under your very eyes."

A country whose people resemble the Beverly Hillbillies: people who have no class, culture, or civility but happen upon large amounts of black gold. The profits of this are then used on flashy expenditures in order to create a pretense of civility among other peoples who are actually civilized (North Americans, Europeans, etc.). Source of most of the world's problems (birthplace, source, fount of funding for Islam).
If Saudi Arabia was nuked we wouldn't have to bother with Afghanistan, Iraq, and eventually every other Muslim country.

PS: this one was damn cool:

The only country on Earth without electricity whose glow can be seen from the moon.
Average Citizen of Saudi Arabia: Alalallalalalallalalalalalalalalal! KABOOM!!!

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

You know, you Persian often associate idioms with fire, it is no secret that you still haven't forgotten your fire-worshiping cults. Instead of running your mouth, why don't you show us the Persian talent in industry, and then we can talk about Japan You can't get some pills to rescue your own dying patients, before " giving " someone else a command.

Instead of sitting somewhere and dream in your head about annexing oil and gas fields, why don't you people start becoming hard-working people? Look at the Japanese, no oil, no natural resources. I just read "Saudi Arabia" entry in urbandictionary.com, two of them are my favorites and are really true:

PS: this one was damn cool:

Would you like a taste from your own medicine? I make no mistake, some quotes are extremely disturbing, so fasten your seat dude!


The savage nation, only exporting terrorism!

First of all, just based on English, a country can't "export" people, namely terrorists. A country can deport people, or outsource people, but not "export" since that word describes shipping ITEMS. That being said...

Even your fellow Iranians are telling it like it is LoL.

First of all, I'm Iranian. Secondly, take into consideration that Iran has been CORRUPTED by religion. When the Shah was in control, it was much better, and you all know it. It's blatant that when Khomeini (Bless his soul) came into control, Iran went downhill, and is still on that downfall. Hopefully the government will change.

Even Westerns know we have been ruling you for centuries how humiliating is that?

A country that once ruled the world before Arab invaded.
A None-Arabic country. Just because they are muslim, they shouldn't be consider as Arabs. Their language, culture, costumes and attitudes are different. It has just been influenced but isn't changed totally. They speak Farsi (Parsi) and their manner is nothing like Arabs.

The root of all evil, the axis of evil!

Iran:A breeding ground for terrorists who prefer to blow themselves up than live a good life. They want a one Arab Union ruled by themselves. They would prefer to wipe Israel off the place of the planet. But USA will never let that happen.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

@Takaavar

Tell me bro, how does it feel like when you get to see such movies like these? I heard you guys had gone mad

Iran's anger over 'Argo' - YouTube