Saudi Arabian Airlines is set to buy 35 new aircraft

[burning_phoneix]

No, they will not. 11 million passengers on international flights should tell you this.

Besides it is not like the air traffic will cease to exist just because of the new railway systems, metros etc. Saudia is a airline that is growing not decreasing. They will still attract passengers domestically and if they don't they will lower their prize to do so.

If everything is done rightly then Saudia has a potential to rival Emirates and other big airlines of the region.

25 million flights a year is not a small amount by any means. In the top 30 of the world if I recall.

Of course a long way to United Airlines etc. but that was never the aim!

10.5 million passengers versus 14.7 domestic?

Imagine if Saudi Arabia had a developed railway network? The French and British railway network transports 1 BILLION passengers every year each!

domestic air traffic of course will not cease but will greatly decrease, leading to AT least 30% to 50% decrease in revenues for Saudi Airlines. That would be a financial disaster for Saudia.

There is a limit to how much they can decrease their ticket price, simply put, there will be no way they can ever be anywhere near as cheap as a train ticket. It simply can not be done.

The reason that Saudia can put up Top 30 passenger flights numbers is because they use domestic travel as a crutch. Few nations can use that (United States and China being some of the few.)

 

[al-Hasani]

10.5 million passengers versus 14.7 domestic?

Imagine if Saudi Arabia had a developed railway network? The French and British railway network transports 1 BILLION passengers every year each!

domestic air traffic of course will not cease but will greatly decrease, leading to AT least 30% to 50% decrease in revenues for Saudi Airlines. That would be a financial disaster for Saudia.

There is a limit to how much they can decrease their ticket price, simply put, there will be no way they can ever be anywhere near as cheap as a train ticket. It simply can not be done.

The reason that Saudia can put up Top 30 passenger flights numbers is because they use domestic travel as a crutch. Few nations can use that (United States and China being some of the few.)

But you know the restrictive visa rules in our country and nearly lack of tourism aside from religious pilgrims?

We might be the 16th most visited country on earth but you get the point here.

You probably already know about the initiative to issue tourist visas to KSA for the first time. Combined with the 15+ million religious tourists that visit the country there is an enormous potential to attract tourism from across the world and thats where Saudia comes into the picture. There is a ENORMOUS potential of mainly millions of additional Muslim tourists and also non-Muslims.

Domestic flights will obviously decrease but by my estimation not more than by 33% and that will be made up by international flights. Many people would still prefer taking a flight no matter how quick the railway network will be (they will be very quick as we both know).

Even if we totally exclude domestic flights from our equation you will still have a HUGE market for the pilgrims alone. You also know that by each year, especially after the expansion work in Makkah and Madinah has finished, that the number of pilgrims will increase by a couple of millions every two years or so (!).
Let alone if some of the restrictive rules were changed in order to introduce tourism.

So I don't agree with your dooms day predictions here.

Also comparing the railway network of France and England with that of KSA (nearly non-existent) is very unfair since we can't possible have such a dense network as they have. Due to the big geographical distances (KSA is 3.5 times bigger than UK and France COMBINED) and the significantly lower population.

But let us agree to disagree here

 

[MarkusS]

Saudi Arabia faces one main problem. Dubai is a main hub for the global civil airflight. It serves as hub for flights between Europe - SEAsia /Australia. Emirates Airlines profits alot from that. It will be hard for KSA to compete with that. And since KSA is not that popular for international travel (visa aspects and so on) you have only one option in the starting phase. Cheap tickets + excellent service. Be prepared for a very long and hard starting phase. It won´t be profitable for many years.

 

[al-Hasani]

Saudi Arabia faces one main problem. Dubai is a main hub for the global civil airflight. It serves as hub for flights between Europe - SEAsia /Australia. Emirates Airlines profits alot from that. It will be hard for KSA to compete with that. And since KSA is not that popular for international travel (visa aspects and so on) you have only one option in the starting phase. Cheap tickets + excellent service. Be prepared for a very long and hard starting phase. It won´t be profitable for many years.

UAE is like our second home anyway. A fellow Muslim, Arab and neighboring country and most importantly a GCC member state.

It is not about becoming a regional hub or anything. KSA, no matter what happens, will always have a huge custom base in the Muslim pilgrims that come each year to Makkah and Madinah. When the expansion works in Makkah and Madinah finishes the numbers of flights will also grow automatically and they will keep growing for each year from 2020 on when the work is completed. If you introduce real tourism to the country as well, which there is every potential for, then this will significantly boost the sector as well.

As long as Saudia is growing as a company and in terms of passengers pr. year which has been the case for many years then this is a good thing.

People just don't understand the enormous potential of KSA. If KSA was a slightly more conservative version of UAE or made various Free Zones that could attract some of the people that are visiting UAE nearby then many more tourists/visitors, especially Muslim, would prefer to visit KSA since it has much, much more to offer than UAE.

But I believe that this will be inevitable. In 10 or 20 years time. Does not matter despite it being better if it happened earlier. But it will happen.

Honestly speaking then I also expect some kind of merger with the smaller states on the Arabian Peninsula that are bordering the Gulf sometime in the future.

 

[MarkusS]

UAE is like our second home anyway. A fellow Muslim, Arab and neighboring country and most importantly a GCC member state.

It is not about becoming a regional hub or anything. KSA, no matter what happens, will always have a huge custom base in the Muslim pilgrims that come each year to Makkah and Madinah. When the expansion works in Makkah and Madinah finishes the numbers of flights will also grow automatically and they will keep growing for each year from 2020 on when the work is completed. If you introduce real tourism to the country as well, which there is every potential for, then this will significantly boost the sector as well.

As long as Saudia is growing as a company and in terms of passengers pr. year which has been the case for many years then this is a good thing.

People just don't understand the enormous potential of KSA. If KSA was a slightly more conservative version of UAE or made various Free Zones that could attract some of the people that are visiting UAE nearby then many more tourists/visitors, especially Muslim, would prefer to visit KSA since it has much, much more to offer than UAE.

But I believe that this will be inevitable. In 10 or 20 years time. Does not matter despite it being better if it happened earlier. But it will happen.

Honestly speaking then I also expect some kind of merger with the smaller states on the Arabian Peninsula that are bordering the Gulf sometime in the future.

I tell you my personal opinion. My girlfriend and i visited Dubai and the city was great. Much fun and awesome stuff there. You can do much fun sports, see great buildings and alot of attractions. The city is like a giant Disney World. But it has one problem. We found the landscape dull...flat desert and no great landscapes at all. Also there are nearly no old buildings. It is cool for a week but gets dull fast. I looked up Saudi Arabia and it has awesome nature. I would love to go hiking in the mountains or do a tour through the desert. See the cities and so on. I looked up if i could book a trip but then learned its so hard to get visa...then there is not much entertainment and as a european christian its not so easy at all. I decided its not worth the trouble. That doesn´t mean i wouldn´t like to visit. I´m sure its awesome. But as you said yourself, its not a popular destination for us westerners because the reasons you named. If that changes i would definitly go. I heared you build a giant skyscarper in Jeddah? And thats exactly the kind of stuff we europeans love to see.

If you get that solved and make Saudi Arabia easier to travel for us, you will profit.

 

[al-Hasani]

I tell you my personal opinion. My girlfriend and i visited Dubai and the city was great. Much fun and awesome stuff there. You can do much fun sports, see great buildings and alot of attractions. The city is like a giant Disney World. But it has one problem. We found the landscape dull...flat desert and no great landscapes at all. Also there are nearly no old buildings. It is cool for a week but gets dull fast. I looked up Saudi Arabia and it has awesome nature. I would love to go hiking in the mountains or do a tour through the desert. See the cities and so on. I looked up if i could book a trip but then learned its so hard to get visa...then there is not much entertainment and as a european christian its not so easy at all. I decided its not worth the trouble. That doesn´t mean i wouldn´t like to visit. I´m sure its awesome. But as you said yourself, its not a popular destination for us westerners because the reasons you named. If that changes i would definitly go. I heared you build a giant skyscarper in Jeddah? And thats exactly the kind of stuff we europeans love to see.

If you get that solved and make Saudi Arabia easier to travel for us, you will profit.

Markus, Dubai was a small fishing village just 100 years ago. 1 out of 1000's of small fishing villages across the Arab world. It was nothing special in the Arab world let alone in what is now UAE.
Most locals engaged in trade, pearl hunting etc. UAE is a new creation. It never played any role in the region. To this very day only 2 million local Emiratis live in the UAE. 100 years ago only 200.000 people or so lived in the entire UAE!

But it has to be said that UAE also have very beautiful beaches, although in the other emirates and it also has mountains and beautiful desert landscapes.

Dubai only has the old center. The rest are amazing skyscrapers and new buildings but that is understandable since we are talking about a tiny fishing village originally.

Yes, but unfortunately there are many reactionary people in KSA who are hurting the country and people. I think I can say that without being targeted by my compatriots. It is a shame. I really hope that it changes.

Actually Islam is not the problem or the people. Long discussion. Also before Islam KSA was inhabited by Christians, Jews and Pagans (people that believed in our pre-Islamic Semitic Gods). KSA has a rich Abrahamic heritage and many areas that are now in KSA are described in the Talmud, Bible and obviously the Qur'an. KSA also has one of the earliest churches on earth:

Jubail Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyway I am not a Christian just trying to tell you that most people do not have a problem with other religions at all.

Yes the Kingdom Tower. Outside of Jeddah. We will see how it will end.

You can visit this thread for more information if it has any interest.

Saudi Arabia in Pictures | Page 65 | Pakistan Defence

I think that KSA can learn A LOT from Germany. I think that Germany is one of the best countries on earth and I can see that you are from München which is a city that I like.

 

[burning_phoneix]

But you know the restrictive visa rules in our country and nearly lack of tourism aside from religious pilgrims?

We might be the 16th most visited country on earth but you get the point here.

You probably already know about the initiative to issue tourist visas to KSA for the first time. Combined with the 15+ million religious tourists that visit the country there is an enormous potential to attract tourism from across the world and thats where Saudia comes into the picture. There is a ENORMOUS potential of mainly millions of additional Muslim tourists and also non-Muslims.

Domestic flights will obviously decrease but by my estimation not more than by 33% and that will be made up by international flights. Many people would still prefer taking a flight no matter how quick the railway network will be (they will be very quick as we both know).

Even if we totally exclude domestic flights from our equation you will still have a HUGE market for the pilgrims alone. You also know that by each year, especially after the expansion work in Makkah and Madinah has finished, that the number of pilgrims will increase by a couple of millions every two years or so (!).
Let alone if some of the restrictive rules were changed in order to introduce tourism.

So I don't agree with your dooms day predictions here.

Also comparing the railway network of France and England with that of KSA (nearly non-existent) is very unfair since we can't possible have such a dense network as they have. Due to the big geographical distances (KSA is 3.5 times bigger than UK and France COMBINED) and the significantly lower population.

But let us agree to disagree here

I wasn't comparing the railways of France and England for no reason. It was to show an example of the hypothetical railway I imagined in my first post. It was to show that a railway only 10-15% as extensive as those nations railways can hold all of Saudia's domestic travel in a year. It just shows how much room there is to expand in the Saudi railway sector that could show a HUGE threat to Saudia.

And how will the expansion work keep increasing pilgrims every year? The size of the Haram isn't the issue. It's simply the number of Hajj and Umra Visas the country produces and nothing else and that is a hard limit that I don't see growing organically but rather in unreliable spurts and not all of it will go to Saudia.

In addition, I don't really believe Tourism in Saudi Arabia will ever really take off. Foreigners have their image of Saudi Arabia and that is unlikely to change. And our conservatives have images of foreigners that they do not want...and that will not change.

It's the sad truth.

But anyway, Saudia is a publically traded company now, right? I'll take a look through their financial statements, do some calculations and see how a 33% reduction in domestic travel will affect their bottom line. (I'm a business major )

 

[SHAMK9]

I believe that a few years ago, an order to purchase 45 Boeings 707 were placed, as well as sealing another deal with the Airbus as well.

This has got to be a new order I guess.

Boeing 707 stop production decades ago, i think you mean 777

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

Boeing 707 stop production decades ago, i think you mean 777

Yeap, thanks for the heads-up

 

[SQ8]

The A380 is the ideal Hajj plane. Full economy with 900 or more seats.. all Hajis packed.. It would be efficient transportation.
If only the Hajj terminals could handle 900 Travel weary Hajis disembarking (among them smugglers and illegal immigrants)

 

[al-Hasani]

I wasn't comparing the railways of France and England for no reason. It was to show an example of the hypothetical railway I imagined in my first post. It was to show that a railway only 10-15% as extensive as those nations railways can hold all of Saudia's domestic travel in a year. It just shows how much room there is to expand in the Saudi railway sector that could show a HUGE threat to Saudia.

And how will the expansion work keep increasing pilgrims every year? The size of the Haram isn't the issue. It's simply the number of Hajj and Umra Visas the country produces and nothing else and that is a hard limit that I don't see growing organically but rather in unreliable spurts and not all of it will go to Saudia.

In addition, I don't really believe Tourism in Saudi Arabia will ever really take off. Foreigners have their image of Saudi Arabia and that is unlikely to change. And our conservatives have images of foreigners that they do not want...and that will not change.

It's the sad truth.

But anyway, Saudia is a publically traded company now, right? I'll take a look through their financial statements, do some calculations and see how a 33% reduction in domestic travel will affect their bottom line. (I'm a business major )

Anyway the comparison made no sense whatsoever. There are a dozens of examples of countries with a excellent infrastructure and extensive railway system who still make great use of their domestic flights.

Millions pilgrims arriving from ABROAD each year, something that will increase gradually by EACH YEAR, concerns INTERNATIONAL passengers and not domestic ones.

Devoloping a real tourism sector will obviously also focus tremendously on INTERNATIONAL ARRIVALS AND INTERNATIONAL VISITORS. 99% of them will arrive by PLANE and not train.

You did not understand what I wrote. There is currently a HUGE expansion project going on in Al-Masjid Al-Haram which this year meant that there were about 1 million pilgrims less during hajj than in the previous year.

In 2020 when the expansion work is expected to be finished and the one in Masjid An-Nabawi as well then the number of pilgrims each year will increase rapidly as was the case before the expansion works. This will mean that the government would have to issue more visas. This is very simple. Hence the expansion work. There would be no need for an expansion if there was no demand.

Obviously Saudia being the major railway and a national one will have a great, great share of those pilgrims as passengers.

If tourism, which is a question of time, no matter what you say or fear, will be introduced and developed for real (a tourism sector) then Saudia will obviously also play a role here. Simple. Foreigners will not use high-speed railways to visit the country will they? Obviously no.

So the decision to introduce tourism visas and talk about creating work for 500.000 people in the tourism sector is just hot air? Where have you been in the past 8 years where reforms were made each year?

All those changes are INEVITABLE. Trust me.

33% was just a guess by me. But that guess was obviously only valid if the changes I described will occur.

Stop being so negative man.

 

[burning_phoneix]

Anyway the comparison made no sense whatsoever. There are a dozens of examples of countries with a excellent infrastructure and extensive railway system who still make great use of their domestic flights.

Domestic flights will not disappear, but they obviously will decrease the massive reliance Saudia has on domestic flights. The comparison was made for the following reason: To show that a fast train system only 10-15% the size of an established train system in another country has the capability of absorbing the entirety of Saudi's domestic travel numbers (14 million).

Obviously, not 100% of people will suddenly switch to trains but a large percentage of them will, greatly hurting Saudia's revenues.

And yes, I do agree that other countries make great use of their domestic flights...but none rely on them as much as Saudia.

Take the United States: A very large country with a large population and a somewhat decrepit train transport system (reminds you of a certain country?). Delta Airlines, the largest airlines in the world does about 59% of their flights domestic (2012 numbers)! A very high number but not even near Saudia's 65%!

You did not understand what I wrote. There is currently a HUGE expansion project going on in Al-Masjid Al-Haram which this year meant that there were about 1 million pilgrims less during hajj than in the previous year.

In 2020 when the expansion work is expected to be finished and the one in Masjid An-Nabawi as well then the number of pilgrims each year will increase rapidly as was the case before the expansion works. This will mean that the government would have to issue more visas. This is very simple. Hence the expansion work. There would be no need for an expansion if there was no demand.

I understand exactly what you meant. But you didn't understand what I mean: Once the expansion work is finished, the number of pilgrims will increase ONCE. Not every year like you claim. The Haram doesn't organically expand itself.

Obviously Saudia being the major railway and a national one will have a great, great share of those pilgrims as passengers.

Half of the pilgrim numbers are Saudi nationals coming in domestically, the other half are international and are divided up by several Airlines. The numbers won't be as big as you claim.

So the decision to introduce tourism visas and talk about creating work for 500.000 people in the tourism sector is just hot air?

Yes.

Where have you been in the past 8 years where reforms were made each year?

Waiting for the Riyadh Metro....which was supposed to open 2010.

All those changes are INEVITABLE. Trust me.

I highly doubt the changes are inevitable. Tourism will never really take off in Saudi Arabia due to the stringent laws in place.

Stop being so negative man.

I used to be positive but several delayed,cancelled and over budget projects have suffocated my enthusiasm.

 

[al-Hasani]

@burning_phoneix

I am afraid that I don't agree with you here.

Understand that domestic flights will not play the biggest role in the future if the changes I wrote will occur, which I believe are enviable. Also the domestic flights will never decrease as much as you predict to such an extent.

Yes, it will increase every year if the visa regulations will change since after the expansion the mosques could basically held 3 million pilgrims each day all year around. That is obviously never going to happen but it will inevitably increase in numbers each year since the demand will continue to grow and if the changes I am speaking about (visa regulations and thus an establishment of a tourism sector which the government already promised to introduce) then you will obviously have Muslim visitors every day all year around. You don't think that hundred of millions (LITERARY) Muslims from across the world would not be willing to visit the holy sites even outside of the Hajj and Umrah? Hell we could attract a few million Iranians dressed in black not that they are high on my demand list.

Since when?

Ok, is that why laws have changed on a frequent basis? Countries evolve and so do laws.

 

[Armstrong]

@al-Hasani - You dare disagree with my brother @burning_phoneix ?

You'd pay for that you Nejadi Sheep whose doing a Doctorate in Chemical Engineering !

 

[al-Hasani]

@al-Hasani - You dare disagree with my brother @burning_phoneix ?

You'd pay for that you Nejadi Sheep whose doing a Doctorate in Chemical Engineering !

In this case they would be useful if they could help during exams.

If I were a Najdi sheep you would not harm me. How can you harm creatures like this?

There are thousands upon thousands of such farms in Najd where they are roaming around, LOL.

Besides I am sure that @burning_phoneix is a Najdi. They are always negative.

Anyway I already told you that I am moving to the nuclear engineering sector.