Saudi Arabia changes Ottoman ‘Empire’ to ‘occupation’ in school textbooks

[Philip the Arab]

They can. For example, the entire arabian peninsula is Muslim land.

With no mean to cause offence, all these arabizing or arab nationalism or arab pride won't get you people anymore. You'll be one of the most humiliated people on the face of the earth if you continue pursuing these types of idealogies.

You are thinking too much.. There is no such thing as Muslim land bud but you can believe in your pan-Islamism fantasies if you like.

 

[Numerous]

You are thinking too much.. There is no such thing as Muslim land bud but you can believe in your pan-Islamism fantasies if you like.

It's not pan-Islamism. It's called Islam bro.

Many of you arabs on here, you like to go on about xyz arab thing as if it gives you honour and pride. Let me quote you the words of another "pan-Islamist", he's an arab too, he was an intelligent man, so much so, that his words carry weight even in todays nationalism vs islam conversation.

Umar ibn al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, said, “Verily, we were a disgraceful people and Allah honored us with Islam. If we seek honor from anything besides that with which Allah honored us, Allah will disgrace us.”

It's something for you guys to think about.

 

[damm1t]

There never was any "occupation" as Ottoman (no such thing to begin with as most "Ottomans" were Arabs and "Ottoman language" was another Arabic dialect, culture was mostly Arabic, alphabet, architecture, cuisine (modern-day Turkish cuisine owns most of its dishes to gaining access to Arab lands post-1517, whole bureaucracy was stolen/copied from previous much more bigger and influential Arab Caliphates (Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatimid) as were the titles and most of the territory) as the "Ottoman" presence (in Arabia) was limited to a few military garrisons where mostly local "Ottoman" soldiers were present and that too only in Hijaz and for less than 50 years in the Eastern Province. The ruler was the Sharif of Makkah and Madinah (Hijaz as a whole) as under previous caliphates. Rest of KSA was made up various kingdoms, sultanates, emirates, imamates, sheikdoms etc.

To make it short, "Ottoman" was as much an Arab entity (if not more) as it was "Turkish" (let us not forget that most Anatolians are actually just Turkified and Arabized people - the Ottoman ruling family were originally nomadic Turks living in Syria and since they took power, they constantly intermarried with foreigners so today they are less than 2% Turkic if that can do it - a Google search should confirm this).

In any case, if some kind of imaginary "Arab betrayal" is taught in schools in Turkey, every single of the 20+ Arab countries should be teaching about the "Ottoman" betrayal in 1517, where they stole the Caliphate after 1000 years of Arab rule (Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatimid) and during 90% + of all the Islamic conquests and during the Islamic Golden Age.

It is without question that 400 years of "Ottoman" presence in PARTS of the Arab world (far from the majority) was overall a dark age for Arabs and 100 years later we are still under this negative influence. In fact it began earlier than that. When the savage Mongols destroyed Islamic civilization as we knew it, 250 years prior. The Muslim world has not since recovered.

EDIT: Hijaz as well as all of Makkah and Madinah are 5000+ year old Hijazi cities inhabited by native Hijazi, so obviously this is 100% Arabian/Arab/Semitic lands and people and KSA is an Arabian/Arab/Semitic country and the House of Saud is an local Arabian dynasty that will have 1 billion times more legitimacy over Hijaz than any non-Arab dynasty.



Prophet Ibrahim (AS) was a Semite and all Semites originate from Arabia. He and his blessed prodigy moved back to Hijaz almost 5000 years ago and that is where monotheism was first practiced in the world.

And Allah (swt) himself thourgh Prophet Muhamad (saws) gave the honor of being keepers of the Kaaba to 1 Hijazi Arab family. Banu Shaiba.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bani_Shaiba

So we Arabs have ALWAYS been the custodians of Makkah and Madinah and will continue to be so until the end of times.

BTW Middle East Monitor is an anti-KSA propaganda " news channel" and although I doubt the authenticity of this news, I personally hope that it is correct, as decades of pan-Islamist propaganda has refused to talk of the numerous negative consequences of the "Ottoman" presence in the Arab world. Printing being banned, certain regions being forcefully neglected in order to keep them ignorant etc. Indeed, this was the dark age of the Arabs, as many Arab intellectuals have spoken about for ages from Morocco to Oman. Once Arabic was the language of science and the foremost universities in the entire world were located in the Arab world. What happened during the "Ottoman" presence for 400 years in comparison, everyone can answer for themselves if they know just 1 bit of history. So there are zero reasons for Arabs to praise the "Ottomans" from a historical viewpoint. The whole foundation and ideology of the Turkish Republic (the supposed successor state due to Istanbul being the former Ottoman capital) being COMPLETE opposites of the Ottoman heritage, should be self-explanatory as well for the success of the Ottomans.

Anyway this forum is a joke forum, so no wonder that 95% of all the Arab users have left.

A few side comments.

1) KSA was never a Western colony.

2) The participants of the Arab Revolt fought successfully and won and fought not for the UK (their nominal allies) but for themselves.

3) The Ottomans were allied with Christian Austria-Hungary and the German Empire so so much for that hypocrisy.

4) The Young Turks were the first etno-nationalists to oppose the Ottomans. They are not taught as "traitors" in Turkish history (lol).

5) There were 100's of uprisings across the Ottoman period, hardly many in the Arab world, but tons in the Balkans.

6) Turkish nationalism is fine (lol) but Arab is not.

7) PDF remains a joke.

Does anyone really read this guy's unnecassarily long posts from his imaginary world?

 

[ArabianEmpires&Caliphates]

Does anyone really read this guy's unnecassarily long posts from his imaginary world?

Facts hurt, my Arabized and Turkified Anatolian. They do and 4 people thanked it! 1000 would thank it if there were to be 1000 Arab users on PDF. Pure historical facts that everyone can google as well.

Besides Arabs don't care about the opinions of foreigners. So you can jump and cry for all we care while Erdogan and the Syrians continue to Arabize you further.

Beautiful posts:

There never was any "occupation" as Ottoman (no such thing to begin with as most "Ottomans" were Arabs and "Ottoman language" was another Arabic dialect, culture was mostly Arabic, alphabet, architecture, cuisine (modern-day Turkish cuisine owns most of its dishes to gaining access to Arab lands post-1517, whole bureaucracy was stolen/copied from previous much more bigger and influential Arab Caliphates (Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatimid) as were the titles and most of the territory) as the "Ottoman" presence (in Arabia) was limited to a few military garrisons where mostly local "Ottoman" soldiers were present and that too only in Hijaz and for less than 50 years in the Eastern Province. The ruler was the Sharif of Makkah and Madinah (Hijaz as a whole) as under previous caliphates. Rest of KSA was made up various kingdoms, sultanates, emirates, imamates, sheikdoms etc.

To make it short, "Ottoman" was as much an Arab entity (if not more) as it was "Turkish" (let us not forget that most Anatolians are actually just Turkified and Arabized people - the Ottoman ruling family were originally nomadic Turks living in Syria and since they took power, they constantly intermarried with foreigners so today they are less than 2% Turkic if that can do it - a Google search should confirm this).

In any case, if some kind of imaginary "Arab betrayal" is taught in schools in Turkey, every single of the 20+ Arab countries should be teaching about the "Ottoman" betrayal in 1517, where they stole the Caliphate after 1000 years of Arab rule (Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatimid) and during 90% + of all the Islamic conquests and during the Islamic Golden Age.

It is without question that 400 years of "Ottoman" presence in PARTS of the Arab world (far from the majority) was overall a dark age for Arabs and 100 years later we are still under this negative influence. In fact it began earlier than that. When the savage Mongols destroyed Islamic civilization as we knew it, 250 years prior. The Muslim world has not since recovered.

EDIT: Hijaz as well as all of Makkah and Madinah are 5000+ year old Hijazi cities inhabited by native Hijazi, so obviously this is 100% Arabian/Arab/Semitic lands and people and KSA is an Arabian/Arab/Semitic country and the House of Saud is an local Arabian dynasty that will have 1 billion times more legitimacy over Hijaz than any non-Arab dynasty.



Prophet Ibrahim (AS) was a Semite and all Semites originate from Arabia. He and his blessed prodigy moved back to Hijaz almost 5000 years ago and that is where monotheism was first practiced in the world.

And Allah (swt) himself thourgh Prophet Muhamad (saws) gave the honor of being keepers of the Kaaba to 1 Hijazi Arab family. Banu Shaiba.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bani_Shaiba

So we Arabs have ALWAYS been the custodians of Makkah and Madinah and will continue to be so until the end of times.

BTW Middle East Monitor is an anti-KSA propaganda " news channel" and although I doubt the authenticity of this news, I personally hope that it is correct, as decades of pan-Islamist propaganda has refused to talk of the numerous negative consequences of the "Ottoman" presence in the Arab world. Printing being banned, certain regions being forcefully neglected in order to keep them ignorant etc. Indeed, this was the dark age of the Arabs, as many Arab intellectuals have spoken about for ages from Morocco to Oman. Once Arabic was the language of science and the foremost universities in the entire world were located in the Arab world. What happened during the "Ottoman" presence for 400 years in comparison, everyone can answer for themselves if they know just 1 bit of history. So there are zero reasons for Arabs to praise the "Ottomans" from a historical viewpoint. The whole foundation and ideology of the Turkish Republic (the supposed successor state due to Istanbul being the former Ottoman capital) being COMPLETE opposites of the Ottoman heritage, should be self-explanatory as well for the success of the Ottomans.

Anyway this forum is a joke forum, so no wonder that 95% of all the Arab users have left.

A few side comments.

1) KSA was never a Western colony.

2) The participants of the Arab Revolt fought successfully and won and fought not for the UK (their nominal allies) but for themselves.

3) The Ottomans were allied with Christian Austria-Hungary and the German Empire so so much for that hypocrisy.

4) The Young Turks were the first etno-nationalists to oppose the Ottomans. They are not taught as "traitors" in Turkish history (lol).

5) There were 100's of uprisings across the Ottoman period, hardly many in the Arab world, but tons in the Balkans.

6) Turkish nationalism is fine (lol) but Arab is not.

7) PDF remains a joke.

Most Arabs don't care about the Ottoman period. They look at it as almost another Arab entity for the reasons that I already wrote. The ones that obsess about it are the Turks. I don't see Arabs obsessing about what occurred in 1517, when the Ottomans stole the Caliphate from the Arabs after almost 1000 years of Arab rule.

The Ottoman period was a dark age for the Arabs compared to previous eras. Every historian will tell you that. In fact the Muslim world has been in a dark age since the fall of Baghdad 750 years ago. Compare the scientific output of the previous Arab caliphates with the Ottoman one, and we are talking about galaxies/lightyears of difference.

The Ottomans based their system on past Arab Caliphates. Those I mentioned. Even all their titles were Arab in origin.

Fact of the matter is that you could easily argue that the Ottoman empire was as much Arab as it was Turkic if not more. BTW after a few generations the ruling Ottoman dynasty was hardly Turkic as I also wrote. They constantly intermarried non-Turks/Turkic people.

This is a troll thread and Arabs don't care about this topic, in fact many Arabs don't care about previous Arab caliphates. It is all history. As Arabs we can talk about the pre-Islamic era as well since the Arab world is home to the oldest civilizations on the planet. As relevant today.



What he told you is bogus. There was never any such attempt. It was mostly fantasy from some of the post-Ottoman beuracrats (most of them of Caucasian origins) who kept some of their influence after the Ottoman collapse. Not less Kurds, as there are 2-3 times as many Kurds in Turkey as in Iraq.

 

[Timur]

They can. For example, the entire arabian peninsula is Muslim land.

With no mean to cause offence, all this "arabizing" talk or arab nationalism or arab pride won't get you people anymore. You'll be one of the most humiliated people on the face of the earth if you continue pursuing these types of idealogies.

the time will come and any ignorant who will not bow down will see what he will gain with his own hands..

Umar ibn al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, said, “Verily, we were a disgraceful people and Allah honored us with Islam. If we seek honor from anything besides that with which Allah honored us, Allah will disgrace us.”

that also counts for everyone..

Does anyone really read this guy's unnecassarily long posts from his imaginary world?

it has a name its called 1001 nights pdf tales

 

[Numerous]

the time will come and any ignorant who will not bow down will see what he will gain with his own hands..



that also counts for everyone..

Yeh I agree it counts for everyones regardless of whether they're arab, turk, pakistani etc...

 

[damm1t]

Besides Arabs don't care about the opinions of foreigners. So you can jump and cry for all we care.

Beautiful posts:

He even praises himself

Btw, being "Xraceified" or "Yraceified" doesn't matter dude, we are Turks, your DNA or origin obsession will not change it, deal with it already.

 

[Timur]

He even praises himself

Btw, being "Xraceified" or "Yraceified" doesn't matter dude, we are Turks, your DNA or origin obsession will not change it, deal with it already.

dont bother with him he may be 7 % ashkenazi jew

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Facts hurt, my Arabized and Turkified Anatolian. They do and 4 people thanked it! 1000 would thank it if there were to be 1000 Arab users on PDF. Pure historical facts that everyone can google as well.

Besides Arabs don't care about the opinions of foreigners. So you can jump and cry for all we care while Erdogan and the Syrians continue to Arabize you further.

Beautiful posts:

You're a bit over the top. The Ottomans were pretty awesome in my opinion and enriched virtually every civilisation they came to control, and even the ones they simply had contact with. They also spawned one of the very few modern non-western nation states that was not bequeathed by occupying or colonial powers, or some vassal state of a superpower. It would be foolish of modern gulf states to disregard and disrespect a proud era of their own history in this way. Hindustan is busy erasing the mughals from its own history books because of its inferiority complex. Not a smart example to follow I feel. But hey, whatever.

 

[ArabianEmpires&Caliphates]

You're a bit over the top. The Ottomans wereu pretty awesome in my opinion and enriched virtually every civilisation they came to control, and even the ones they simply had contact with. They also spawned one of the very few modern non-western nation states that was not bequeathed by occupying or colonial powers, or some vassal state of a superpower. It would be foolish of modern gulf states to disregard and disrespect a proud era of their own history in this way. Hindustan is busy erasing the mughals from its own history books because of its inferiority complex. Not a smart example to follow I feel. But hey, whatever.

Can you name their scientific achievements compared to the achievements of previous Arab Caliphates (Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatimid) that were lightyears ahead on every front?

Which enrichment? As I wrote almost everything "Ottoman" is Arab in origin. Even their most famous beverage "Turkish coffee" is Arabian coffee called "Turkish coffee". Coffee itself originated in Sufi monasteries of Southern Arabia where it was used as a beverage to enter into "trances".

Even their military achievements are laughable compared to previous Caliphates. Arabs controlled far larger areas of Europe and for longer. Much more influential too.

The Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates were 3 times larger than the Ottoman. The Rashidun were larger too. Even the Hijazi Shia Famitids had an empire almost as big as the Ottomans, lol.

Spaniards, Sicilians, Southern Italians, Maltese, Portuguese, Cretans, Cypriots etc. romantize the Arab Muslim period (that enriched them greatly) while I have never heard about Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians, Georgians praise the Ottoman legacy.

As I already told, "Ottoman" presence in KSA was limited to a few military garrisons and Hijaz. Mostly local "Ottomans" as well. Besides this news is fake news. No such thing. People in KSA were taught that the Ottomans were a great Caliphate (wrong in my eyes as there was nothing great about them - the Arab dark ages were during the Ottoman period and which we deal with today although luckily less and less) like any previous caliphate due to pan-Islamism. KSA was never an Arab nationalist country unlike most Arab countries in the modern era.

Turks are taught about some imaginary "Arab betrayal" while we were never taught in school about how the Ottomans stole the Caliphate from the Arabs in 1517 after 1000 years of Arab rule (extremely successful in comparison). So if anything we need to up our game. A game that we did not start btw.

 

[Philip the Arab]

Can you name their scientific achievements compared to the achievements of previous Arab Caliphates (Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatimid) that were lightyears ahead on every front?

Which enrichment? As I wrote almost everything "Ottoman" is Arab in origin. Even their most famous beverage "Turkish coffee" is Arabian coffee called "Turkish coffee". Coffee itself originated in Sufi monasteries of Southern Arabia where it was used as a beverage to enter into "trances".

Even their military achievements are laughable compared to previous Caliphates. Arabs controlled far larger areas of Europe and for longer. Much more influential too.

The Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates were 3 times larger than the Ottoman. The Rashidun were larger too. Even the Hijazi Shia Famitids had an empire almost as big as the Ottomans, lol.

Spaniards, Sicilians, Southern Italians, Maltese, Portuguese, Cretans, Cypriots etc. romantize the Arab Muslim period (that enriched them greatly) while I have never heard about Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians, Georgians praise the Ottoman legacy.

As I already told, "Ottoman" presence in KSA was limited to a few military garrisons and Hijaz. Mostly local "Ottomans" as well. Besides this news is fake news. No such thing. People in KSA were taught that the Ottomans were a great Caliphate like any previous caliphate due to pan-Islamism. KSA was never an Arab nationalist country unlike most Arab countries in the modern era.

Even today, computers would be impossible without the contributions of Muhammad Atalla an Egyptian Arab. Many of these Turks say Arabs contribute nothing in todays world but the same phone they are using would be impossible without us.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Atalla

 

[ArabianEmpires&Caliphates]

Even today, computers would be impossible without the contributions of Muhammad Atalla an Egyptian Arab. Many of these Turks say Arabs contribute nothing in todays world but the same phone they are using would be impossible without us.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Atalla

There is really no comparison in terms of contribution to science and everything else really (military history, size, influence, cultural, linguistic, religious, architectural, cuisine etc.). Laughable to suggest otherwise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pre-modern_Arab_scientists_and_scholars

346 names.

More than any other ethnicity that I have seen.

Turkic ones in comparison:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Turkic_scholars

53 names.

It should give you a tiny picture of the ground realities.

That is without saying that Arabic was the lingua france of science for almost 1 millennia, that the best universities were located in the Arab world (also the oldest university in the world that is currently in use - founded by a Hijazi Arab women in Tunisia)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_al-Qarawiyyin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatima_al-Fihri

or the pre-Islamic era where the oldest civilizations and most influential are to be found in the Arab world.

No comparison.

Even today tiny UAE and Qatar have an economy almost as big as all of Turkey combined. Just to give you a perspective.

 

[Saddam Hussein]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ElGamal_encryption

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taher_Elgamal

Biji Arab Encryption

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Can you name their scientific achievements compared to the achievements of previous Arab Caliphates (Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatimid) that were lightyears ahead on every front?

Which enrichment? As I wrote almost everything "Ottoman" is Arab in origin. Even their most famous beverage "Turkish coffee" is Arabian coffee called "Turkish coffee". Coffee itself originated in Sufi monasteries of Southern Arabia where it was used as a beverage to enter into "trances".

Even their military achievements are laughable compared to previous Caliphates. Arabs controlled far larger areas of Europe and for longer. Much more influential too.

The Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates were 3 times larger than the Ottoman. The Rashidun were larger too. Even the Hijazi Shia Famitids had an empire almost as big as the Ottomans, lol.

Spaniards, Sicilians, Southern Italians, Maltese, Portuguese, Cretans, Cypriots etc. romantize the Arab Muslim period (that enriched them greatly) while I have never heard about Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians, Georgians praise the Ottoman legacy.

As I already told, "Ottoman" presence in KSA was limited to a few military garrisons and Hijaz. Mostly local "Ottomans" as well. Besides this news is fake news. No such thing. People in KSA were taught that the Ottomans were a great Caliphate (wrong in my eyes as there was nothing great about them - the Arab dark ages were during the Ottoman period and which we deal with today although luckily less and less) like any previous caliphate due to pan-Islamism. KSA was never an Arab nationalist country unlike most Arab countries in the modern era.

Turks are taught about some imaginary "Arab betrayal" while we were never taught in school about how the Ottomans stole the Caliphate from the Arabs in 1517 after 1000 years of Arab rule (extremely successful in comparison). So if anything we need to up our game. A game that we did not start btw.

Hey whoaaa there. I don't deny the impressive contributions by Arabs to world history either. As you have pointed out, in the field of science especially, Arabs were the foremost of all Muslim nations, yes eclipsing the ottomans in that particular field. Nobody was perfect, neither your lot nor the Turks. I would be equally critical if revisionism for political purposes was at play in Ankara. So it's good to know the thread title is fake news. I merely highlighted the proud way in which the ottoman empire signed off, still daring to challenge the mightiest powers and achieving some degree of final victory, which is quite different to the demise of Arab caliphates and the colonial infestation of the hijaz.

 

[ArabianEmpires&Caliphates]

Hey whoaaa there. I don't deny the impressive contributions by Arabs to world history either. As you have pointed out, in the field of science especially, Arabs were the foremost of all Muslim nations, yes eclipsing the ottomans in that particular field. Nobody was perfect, neither your lot nor the Turks. I would be equally critical if revisionism for political purposes was at play in Ankara. So it's good to know the thread title is fake news. I merely highlighted the proud way in which the ottoman empire signed off, still daring to challenge the mightiest powers and achieving some degree of final victory, which is quite different to the demise of Arab caliphates and the colonial infestation of the hijaz.

I never wrote that Ottomans were a complete and utter failure (lol). What I wrote however is based on historical facts. Objectively speaking, even though most of what is considered Ottoman civilization and culture was either Arab in origin or heavily influenced by Arab culture, including the people and lands, starting with the Ottoman language for a starter too, the 400 years of Ottoman presence in PARTS of the Arab world (1/3 of it more or less) cannot be considered as a success story at all for Arabs. So any Arab praising them is either 1) ignorant of history, 2) pan-Islamist so he/she will but default praise anything Islamic even though if you study Ottoman culture, many Muslims here would be shocked, starting from the art (homosexual at times) to how the various Sultans were murdering their own brothers to stay in power, to constant alliances with Christians, to no Ottoman Sultan ever making Hajj or Umrah once etc.

This is exactly what I was taught in KSA as a kid and what remains the case to this day from what I am aware of. Obviously criticism as well at Islamic history and weak eras and mistakes throughout Muslim history but overall the picture is always positive regardless of which Muslim entity.

On the other hand the official ideology of the Turkish Republic (Turkey is only considered as the "successor state of the Ottomans due to the capital being Istanbul, if the capital had been Syria or Cairo, it would be Syria or Egypt for instance) is a total opposite of the Ottoman one. They are apparently taught about some imaginary Arab betrayal 100 years ago (a few Arab ruling families and select clans - later spread) while they are not teaching how they stole the Caliphate in 1517, 400 years prior, from the Arabs after 1000 years of Arab rule. Also Arab nationalism is bad but Turkish nationalism is great. Nothing more than hypocrisy so of course hard to take seriously.

Turks here think that KSA or Arab countries (at least those never ruled by Arab "nationalists") were anti-Ottoman in terms of education, while nothing could be further from the truth, unlike the anti-Arabism of the early Kemalist Republic, hence the 100 year old new embrace of non-Turkish culture and ideology from Ataturk to distance himself from the Ottomans and by default Arabs/Islam.

Hence many of the ignorant Arabs having a positive viewpoint of Turkey = Ottomans. Nothing else but the same Arabs have no clue about their own history, Kemalism, that the Ottomans were a very bad version of Arab civilization (from the Arab perspective) and that the era was a dark ages for Arab regions part of the Ottomans, either nominally or de facto.

If you take a look at every Arabic Twitter that orignteas from a Turkish source, there will always be heavy emphasis on the Ottomans and hardly anything about Kemalism unlike in Turkey. That is a deliberate tactic, as otherwise there is nothing for Arabs to relate to. Similarly how the ruling Mullah's of Iran emphasize the Arab DNA of their leadership and ideology, contrary to some fire worshipping Iranian pre-Islamic culture (heavily influenced by Semitic culture - in fact most of it but that is another discussion altogether as well).

Even their puppets, say it openly: