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Sarkozy to Seek China Aid as EU Expands Rescue Fund

Looks like someone from two bit unworthy competitor country is jealous about China's cash.
 
Exactly. China has no choice but to help out -- like it has been doing for the US. Both for market preservation and public relations.

The only question is, how much will it cost?

Until Chinese domestic demand picks up significantly, and as long Western media remains dominant, China has no choice but to play ball.

It's just like fishing. You sometimes have to go through a period of fishing up poor quality fishes until the big ones comes along. With the way western economies and China's are intertwined we are automatically affected when theirs are, that is why we have to play the game but we must be patient and selective on where and how to fish.

This patient game will go on until we are just as developed if not more than we are in the industrial aspect of things. This is gradually happening. It is a tedious process as China is a big country housing over 1.3 billion commies, which is roughly 1/6th of the world's population:lol:

We are a very determined and patient nation and rich in history when it comes to trade. We will survive regardless of the west, we just have to ensure things are being managed properly and we move along accordingly.
 
Unfortunately, China may have little choice. Since Sarkozy has put them on the spot, they have to manage the situation very delicately or it can turn into a public relations disaster.

If they don't answer the phone, so to speak, any further deterioration of the Eurozone may be blamed on China. The Western media would see to that.


You have a valid point, however, I think that such a line of reasoning is self defeating - how? First, there is only one way to blunt the Western media and that is by ensuring that your own narrative is credible and is exposed to ever increasing audiences - regardless, whether China agree to be hosed or not, the Western media will have little to say that is favorable towards China - that's just a given.

Secondly and more importantly, some here seem to be under the general impression that as EU is the biggest trading partner of China, that it is some sort of favor to China - remember the EU don't just buy from China, they also sell to China and in order to make their products more competitive, there will have to be a series of adjustments in the Euro - this will happen with or without Chinese investment - and furthermore, as the "Men without Qualities" piece outlines, the bonds offered, regardless of their triple A label, that is to say their insurance, are not worth the triple A characterization.

The other option of funding through the IMF is similarly problematic and as the Subramanian article suggests offer little other than psychology - while EU and US decline, we are supposed to value being their equal in decline?? - Furthermore, going the IMF route will then expose the Chinese to calibrating their policies even more closely to the input offered by EU and US, far from injecting stability, it will make the EU and US are policy partners of the Chinese, is that a desirable outcome, ought the US and EU be partners in Chinese policies while China cannot be a partner in the policies of EU and US because those policies are primarily driven by private interests.

I think we should all find it worrying that many of us think that the Global crisis, will somehow exclude China - after all, it's GLOBAL -- and China should position herself and her neighbors which constitute the security circle that China should be more concerned about rather than whether EU should be supported to finance a way of life that is unsustainable.
 
I won't do your homework for you. Research for yourself how economists' concerns about an imminent downgrade of France sent the markets into a dive.

The fact that the downgrade didn't happen is secondary; the point being that the concerns have remained with us over several months and may resurface yet again. And every time they do, the markets take a hit.

The downgrade didnt happen, France is still the highest possible rated, AAA stable. All you can do is play word games with no substance. Lets just say you made out all those statements out of ignorance unless you back up with some solid sources.

"France is rated AAA with a stable outlook. So there is no reason to be concerned about its solvency," S&P's Carol Sirou was quoted as having said in the interview published in French daily newspaper Liberation.
S&P rep repeats France rating is AAA, outlook stable | Reuters

I know you only showed up to troll and derail the thread, but I am not going to keep repeating what I actually wrote. Try reading it again, perhaps with a dictionary in hand, to understand what is being conveyed.

Good, accuse me of trolling when you have nothing to counter real sources.

For your education, the 'sources and logic' against buying Eurobonds are right above you in preceding articles.

Regarding buying Eurobonds, here's what you wrote:


and

There is no logic except for preserving its market, the chinese commerce ministry said so. But you being more than more, of course managed to conjure up other reasons out of thin air.

Because this topic is about China and everyone's free to comment. If Indians don't like it, they can have a lie down until the feeling passes.

So why bring India into it. Just to feel good taking potshots like "why not ask India for money" just shows your pathetic tendency to bring down India at the smallest possible opportunity. Topic is about China stay on China would be my suggestion.
 
We are a very determined and patient nation and rich in history when it comes to trade. We will survive regardless of the west, we just have to ensure things are being managed properly and we move along accordingly.

Yes, China has to play along. Even in a multi-polar world, US dominance is not going away any time soon and, while Europe may give grief to the US over some matters, they are both solidly aligned when it comes to protecting Western hegemony.

Even when China surpasses America's GDP, the per-capita figures will still be sobering. I'm sure China's planners are well aware of that and the importance of the West as a market until those per-capita figures get better.
 
You have a valid point, however, I think that such a line of reasoning is self defeating - how? First, there is only one way to blunt the Western media and that is by ensuring that your own narrative is credible and is exposed to ever increasing audiences - regardless, whether China agree to be hosed or not, the Western media will have little to say that is favorable towards China - that's just a given.

Unfortunately, I don't think its possible for China to effectively counter Western media. China simply does not have the media power to put up much of a fight. Global media is one of the West's crown jewels, and they will fight tooth-and-nail before relinquishing any part of that juggernaut.

Secondly and more importantly, some here seem to be under the general impression that as EU is the biggest trading partner of China, that it is some sort of favor to China - remember the EU don't just buy from China, they also sell to China and in order to make their products more competitive, there will have to be a series of adjustments in the Euro - this will happen with or without Chinese investment - and furthermore, as the "Men without Qualities" piece outlines, the bonds offered, regardless of their triple A label, that is to say their insurance, are not worth the triple A characterization.

Yes, that's a good point about letting the Euro bleed for a while. Also, since the Euro was set up specifically to challenge the USD, a weaker Euro strengthens the value of China's USD holdings.

The other option of funding through the IMF is similarly problematic and as the Subramanian article suggests offer little other than psychology - while EU and US decline, we are supposed to value being their equal in decline?? - Furthermore, going the IMF route will then expose the Chinese to calibrating their policies even more closely to the input offered by EU and US, far from injecting stability, it will make the EU and US are policy partners of the Chinese, is that a desirable outcome, ought the US and EU be partners in Chinese policies while China cannot be a partner in the policies of EU and US because those policies are primarily driven by private interests.

Yup. No reason why China should entangle itself into what is basically a Western institution.

I think we should all find it worrying that many of us think that the Global crisis, will somehow exclude China - after all, it's GLOBAL -- and China should position herself and her neighbors which constitute the security circle that China should be more concerned about rather than whether EU should be supported to finance a way of life that is unsustainable.

The global aspect is the reason why China has no choice but to intervene. Not just for material reasons, but for public relations and image management. China wants to be seen as a GLOBAL player, not an ASIAN player. If it walks away from Europe, it will be portrayed as evidence that China is only a regional player and has no relevance on the global stage.
 
The downgrade didnt happen, France is still the highest possible rated, AAA stable. All you can do is play word games with no substance. Lets just say you made out all those statements out of ignorance unless you back up with some solid sources.


S&P rep repeats France rating is AAA, outlook stable | Reuters



Good, accuse me of trolling when you have nothing to counter real sources.

The link you gave is from August; the downgrade warnings I am talking about happened in October.

Yes, France escaped the downgrade. For now.

Like I wrote, this Eurozone ulcer has a LONG way to go (read: ten+ years) and France is not out of the woods just yet. Do you honestly think Sarkozy is begging China for money because he cares about Greece?

There is no logic except for preserving its market, the chinese commerce ministry said so. But you being more than more, of course managed to conjure up other reasons out of thin air.

OK, you win.

China should buy worthless Eurobonds instead of picking up tangible holdings like industries and infrastructure assets.
 
The link you gave is from August; the downgrade warnings I am talking about happened in October.

Yes, France escaped the downgrade. For now.

Like I wrote, this Eurozone ulcer has a LONG way to go (read: ten+ years) and France is not out of the woods just yet. Do you honestly think Sarkozy is begging China for money because he cares about Greece?

Wrong. France escaped its outlook being changed to negative. That is a far cry from being downgraded. You need to read up more on how rating agencies work before making statements like these. You want a recent link, here you go. Its from Moody's one of the rating agencies.

Moody's warned that it may change its "stable" outlook on the rating to "negative" in the coming months, saying that the government's financial strength "has weakened".
If Moody's does make the change, it stops short of a downgrade.
BBC News - Moody's warns on France's credit rating

All Moody warned was of an outlook change, nowhere near a downgrade.

OK, you win.

China should buy worthless Eurobonds instead of picking up tangible holdings like industries and infrastructure assets.

Pretty rich of you to say Eurozone bonds are worthless to China considering that Euro economy is 3 times that of China.

Where exactly did you get the idea that Europeans were selling industries and infrastructure, especially France since they have the military technology you so keenly advised chinese to buy, another of your day dreams?
 
Wrong. France escaped its outlook being changed to negative. That is a far cry from being downgraded. You need to read up more on how rating agencies work before making statements like these. You want a recent link, here you go. Its from Moody's one of the rating agencies.



All Moody warned was of an outlook change, nowhere near a downgrade.

Moody's Threatens Downgrade of France's Triple A Rating | Economy | English

The Moody's ratings agency warns that France's credit rating could be downgraded in the next three months if the nation's budget is stretched further by bank bailouts to help other debt-heavy eurozone countries. France has vowed to defend its AAA credit rating

The Next Domino? Top Economists Warn of France Downgrade - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

Top German economists are warning that France's AAA rating could be in danger should additional measures become necessary to prop up indebted euro-zone members or to save ailing banks

Pretty rich of you to say Eurozone bonds are worthless to China considering that Euro economy is 3 times that of China.

Since you are not willing to read the research in this very thread, let alone elsewhere, nobody can help you. China will buy Eurobonds, but mostly as a "goodwill gesture" to secure other deals.

Where exactly did you get the idea that Europeans were selling industries and infrastructure, especially France since they have the military technology you so keenly advised chinese to buy, another of your day dreams?

Yes, it's all an incredible day dream.
 
The scare-mongering against a "Chinese invasion" has already begun. China is doomed if it does, doomed if it doesn't.

China 'buying up Europe' claims study - Public Service Europe

China is "buying up Europe" by purchasing government debts, investing in European companies and taking advantage of the open market for public procurement – but despite the immediate benefits there could be damaging longer-term effects, a new study claims.

In a paper for the European Council on Foreign Relations, François Godement and Jonas Parello-Plesner argue that China should not be blamed for taking advantage of the opportunities Europe presents. But while the European Union might be grateful for the investment as it struggles to deal with the ongoing sovereign debt crisis, in the medium-term its reliance on China could fracture relationships between member states.

By competing against each other for Chinese business, European governments are reducing their collective ability to strike a better deal with China to gain access to the same sectors in its protected markets. Godement and Parello-Plesner said: "Five years ago the story was European companies establishing bases in China. Now the story is that China is strategically acquiring European companies – giving it ownership of vital infrastructure, access to cutting-edge technologies and allowing it to play some European countries off against others."

The report describes how China's "automobile manufacturers have bought MG and Volvo and taken a life-saving stake in Saab. Its transportation firms are acquiring, leasing or managing harbours, airports, and logistical and assembly bases across the continent. Its development bank is financing projects in Europe's periphery much like it does in Africa. Its purchases of public debt are anxiously sought by deficit-ridden EU member states. In fact, it uses the prospect of these bond purchases as part of its own public diplomacy".

China bought Greek bonds "as a quid pro quo for a 35-year-lease on Piraeus harbour and a deal to finance the purchase of Chinese ships" in June 2010. The next month it promised to buy €1bn of Spanish bonds, boosting market confidence in the country. In the end China bought only €400m but similar promises were made to Portugal and Ireland, the report says. Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain now represent 30 per cent of Chinese investments in Europe, with central and eastern Europe accounting for another 10 per cent. "The danger for Europe is that there is will be a kind of 'China lobby' of smaller member states," according to the report.

Between October 2010 and March 2011, Chinese firms and banks committed $64bn on European contracts, representing more than half of the total investment and trade facilitation flows in Europe since 2008. Although there is no way of knowing for sure, it is thought that China owns 25 per cent of its currency reserves in euros. And China's growing influence in Europe is not purely financial. The report details how there are now 100 Chinese state-run Confucius Institutes on the continent, to promote China's culture and, for example, teach language skills to workers. Meanwhile the China Daily newspaper has launched a European edition.

The report recommends that Europe creates a system to vet direct investment in its defence, media, education and technology industries, and introduce fair competition for public procurement – allowing European businesses to compete for Chinese contracts. There should also be a clear statistical system to monitor Chinese bond purchases, the study's authors claim.

---------------------

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/30/us-eurozone-china-germany-industry-idUSTRE79T2EP20111030

(Reuters) - German industry group BDI has warned Europe not to make political concessions if it seeks Chinese help in solving the euro zone debt crisis, Spiegel magazine wrote in its online edition.

"If we in Europe organize the stabilization of the euro such that we allow political influence from abroad, then we are making a massive error," BDI head Hans-Peter Keitel told Spiegel Online.

European leaders agreed a plan last week to restore financial market confidence and end a two-year crisis started by Greece, with a contribution from Beijing if possible.

Klaus Regling, who heads Europe's bailout fund, visited China on Friday and Saturday to encourage Beijing to invest in it.

But the appeal for Chinese help has come under fierce criticism for potentially weakening Europe's negotiating position in political and economic disputes with Beijing.

"We have crossed a boundary if euro states say, 'we will offer you a political concession in order for you to give us money'," Keitel said. "For example, we could not offer China compromises in intellectual property law in return for money for the rescue fund."

In France in particular, criticism of the plea for Chinese help is fierce. The opposition Socialists accused President Nicolas Sarkozy of making Europe appear weak.

The BDI's Keitel said the decisions made at last week's European summit marked good progress but the crisis would not be over for a long while yet.

Keitel added that Europe could not offer the same aid to Italy as to Greece, saying Rome "can and must resolve its structural problems itself".

(Writing by Sarah Marsh; Editing by Dale Hudson)
 
It looks like Deng Xiaoping's policy of "Tao Guang Yang Hui" has come to an abrupt end.

But at least it bought us one or two extra decades.

This is despite China only using a miniscule fraction of our $3 trillion reserves in overseas investment. Now maybe it is time to go on the real spending spree, buying real assets (land/factories/IP) instead of government bonds.
 
It looks like Deng Xiaoping's policy of "Tao Guang Yang Hui" has come to an abrupt end.

But at least it bought us one or two extra decades.

This is despite China only using a miniscule fraction of our $3 trillion reserves in overseas investment. Now maybe it is time to go on the real spending spree, buying real assets (land/factories/IP) instead of government bonds.

Yeah, but that is also fraught with difficulties. If European industries are not competitive in a global environment, then a simple change of management will not fix the underlying factors. The worst thing would be a Chinese-owned factory laying off thousands of European workers and moving shop to China!
 
It looks like Deng Xiaoping's policy of "Tao Guang Yang Hui" has come to an abrupt end.

But at least it bought us one or two extra decades.

This is despite China only using a miniscule fraction of our $3 trillion reserves in overseas investment. Now maybe it is time to go on the real spending spree, buying real assets (land/factories/IP) instead of government bonds.

It's all up to China to change the current evil world order put on by the west.
China should never, NEVER help Europe. The Europeans are the people who destroyed China and imposed the Opium Wars.

My Chinese brother I believe the time is coming...an Asian Century, lets do something new...an Asian Millennium!
 

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