Featured Salute to this young pashtun man for standing up for pakistan

[SecularNationalist]

Wilki bro is all wrong. The above is historical fact, the army itself acknowledges this. That’s why the AKRF became the Azad Kashmir regiment.

Maybe you are right but Wikipedia is a very neutral and authentic source of info.

 

[Zibago]

The reason that why ethnic terrorists and racists like PTM/NDS/ANA chose Northern Area for conflict and divide by manipulating Pashtuns and this is the same reason that why they never succeed and will never achieve their goals.

They launched this movement a little too late now it wont wont beyond twitter

 

[Zibago]

Brother with all due respect that simply is NOT TRUE.
I've gone blue in the face putting up link after link, evidence after evidence about this.
It was the AKRF who freed Azad Kashmir, my grandfather, my grand uncles and the 90,000 men who fought in the Second World War.
Pashtun irregulars came later and the army even later than that.
I know people do it with the greatest of intentions but this undermines my people and discounts the sacrifices of our forefathers.




According to Sardar Ibrahim, during September 1947, some 50,000 men were organised into a people’s militia variously known as the ‘Azad Army’, ‘Azad Forces’ or ‘Azad Kashmir Regular Forces’. This locally-officered volunteer ‘army’ comprised 90 per cent ex-servicemen, except in Bagh, where the percentage was lower. A ‘very small percentage of Pakistani volunteers’ fought with them, as may have twelve women. According to the Azad Kashmir Defence Minister, Colonel Ali Ahmad Shah (a former captain in the J&K State Force), the ‘Azad Forces had been recruited locally or had risen spontaneously’. They comprised ‘seasoned troops’ with experience fighting in both world wars and the serious ‘Waziristan Operations’ (1920-21). After Azad Kashmir came into being, its ‘Defence Council’ assumed administrative control of ‘Azad Jammu and Kashmir Forces’. This council comprised seven members: two ministers (Defence, Finance); one bureaucrat (Defence secretary); two soldiers (commander-in-chief, chief of staff), and two ‘public representatives’ (members of the Muslim Conference).‘Soldiers’ were paid Rs. 10 per month from accumulated donations, although many men apparently refused wages. Clothing came from donations from local supporters and Pakistanis. The ‘main problem’ was a lack of arms, with some soldiers fighting with ‘axes, spears and swords’. Most used arms and ammunition ‘captured from the enemy in major and minor engagements’ or obtained from Muslim deserters from the Maharaja’s army. Communications were an issue, with men fighting ‘in separate groups on many fronts … [with] no links with each other’. Couriers carried messages between Muzaffarabad and Bagh; elsewhere, post and telegraphic exchanges went via locations in Pakistan.



Benefiting from shorter supply lines, rugged terrain, local knowledge and support, and high morale, the Azad Army built on the Poonch uprising to further oppose the Maharaja. By 22 September 1947, the Azad Army’s military structure was functioning so well that Major-General Scott reported that the Maharaja’s armed forces were losing control over large parts of J&K. The Maharaja’s opponents were doing well, despite ‘miserably lack[ing] a regular line of communication, and a regular supply of arms and ammunition’. By mid-to-late October, they controlled large parts of Poonch and Mirpur, while much of Muzaffarabad tehsil was being cleared of non-Muslims elements, including ‘Sikhs, Dogras and R.S.S [Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh] cut-throats’. This latter activity mirrored anti-Muslim religious violence occurring in Jammu.


The Azad Army’s success was significant: when Pukhtoon tribesmen entered Kashmir Province on 22 October 1947, most of western Jammu Province had already been liberated from the Maharaja’s forces. Two days after the Pukhtoons’ invasion – as India correctly called it


https://www.india-seminar.com/2013/643/643_christopher_snedden.htm



when Pukhtoon tribesmen entered Kashmir Province on 22 October 1947, most of western Jammu Province had already been liberated

What separated us from Jammu Muslims was they didnt didn military training and guns which hindus exploited to the max when they orchestrated the worst genocide in Jammu killing 500000 Muslims

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Maybe you are right but Wikipedia is a very neutral and authentic source of info.

Surprised at this comment from someone who clearly is one of the smarter guys around here.

Wikipedia is only as reliable as the summative effect of the numbers of people contributing a certain narrative to it. In other words, Indian contributors dominate the discourse related to Pakistani affairs and Kashmiri history.

It is in Indian interests to disregard local Kashmiri contributions to the Kashmiri freedom struggle, because that enables Delhi to disseminate a narrative of non-Kashmiri influence in Kashmir propagated by Islamabad and against the wishes of locals.

Indian websites will invariably deny the involvement of local Kashmiris both in the circa-1947 push for Kashmiri freedom from India, as well as present involvement by local Kashmiris in the push for freedom from Indian occupation.

 

[Kambojaric]

Maybe you are right but Wikipedia is a very neutral and authentic source of info.

Brother Wikipedia especially topics relating to Pakistan is infested by Indian "editors". They want to actively portray "outside" intervention from Pakistans side to justify their occupation of Kashmiri land. Kashmiris successfully pushing out Indian occupiers from AJK does not fit their narrative well whereas outsider Pashtun tribesmen "invading" AJK makes their occupation/invasion of IOK seem justified. Pashtuns did help as Waz pointed out but they joined a fight that had already been started by the brave local Kashmiris.

On Topic: Well done to the brother for standing up to these thugs.

 

[SecularNationalist]

Surprised at this comment from someone who clearly is one of the smarter guys around here.

Wikipedia is only as reliable as the summative effect of the numbers of people contributing a certain narrative to it. In other words, Indian contributors dominate the discourse related to Pakistani affairs and Kashmiri history.

It is in Indian interests to disregard local Kashmiri contributions to the Kashmiri freedom struggle, because that enables Delhi to disseminate a narrative of non-Kashmiri influence in Kashmir propagated by Islamabad and against the wishes of locals.

Indian websites will invariably deny the involvement of local Kashmiris both in the circa-1947 push for Kashmiri freedom from India, as well as present involvement by local Kashmiris in the push for freedom from Indian occupation.

Brother Wikipedia especially topics relating to Pakistan is infested by Indian "editors". They want to actively portray "outside" intervention from Pakistans side to justify their occupation of Kashmiri land. Kashmiris successfully pushing out Indian occupiers from AJK does not fit their narrative well whereas outsider Pashtun tribesmen "invading" AJK makes their occupation/invasion of IOK seem justified. Pashtuns did help as Waz pointed out but they joined a fight that had already been started by the brave local Kashmiris.

On Topic: Well done to the brother for standing up to these thugs.

Brothers with all due respect that's why I said maybe I am wrong. But I am basing my narrative not solely on Wikipedia but on what I heard from my elders and fellow pakistanis as well. @waz

 

[saiyan0321]

Wilki bro is all wrong. The above is historical fact, the army itself acknowledges this. That’s why the AKRF became the Azad Kashmir regiment.

The role of Azad forces cannot be understated however the role of the tribals gets the most limelight was due to the fact that they had reached srinagar. What we must question is then why are the two roles separate but one gets most limelight whereas for the other, you have delve deep into the subject. First of all the Kashmir conflict of 1947 was not based on a single theater but on multiple theaters. We have the involvement of the Chitral princely state, Hunza princely state, Nagar princely state and then we have the Gilgit scouts and the counter role played by the nubra scouts and the Jammu and Kashmir state forces in Ladakh.

The pashtun tribal militia composed of various groups and they were to utilize the paths that went through Pakistan since Pakistan was well connected with the Kashmir region, much better than India. They utilized that road network and took on the embattled state forces, capturing strategic areas that led to srinagar. They were supported by Pakistan.

The poonch rebellion was the precursor for the Azad movement and its first incident was the spring 1947 revolt which happened before Pakistan and the more severe revolt in August. The rebellion shook the very core of the state of kashmir as the maharaja was severely worried that the revolt would spread. Sardar ibrahim declared the formation of the government and gujarat was named the Azad GHQ and this was in September if i am not wrong.

These are two different theaters. The pashtun lashkars went from rawalpindi road to Muzaffarabad and with the help of the local population, easily scattered the forces of kashmir state. the local population showed them the shorter and strategic routes. The locals joined the lashkars and went further 200km to srinagar and captured nearby teetwal. Local muslim population would offer them food but they refused fearing them to be poisoned. They were not nice to the non-muslim population but considering the madness of 1947.......

The Azad government played a crucial role in the southern theater of the war was very much part of the Azad forces and the role of the Azad forces is recognized in many books. They held the territories despite setbacks but then again, facing a professional army is something that is very hard and it cant be blamed on both the Azad forces nor on the tribals for the territory they had to retreat from.


Credit must be given everywhere as both were instrumental in securing the Kashmir that is independent and it must be stated that the Azad government was fighting and forming a provisional government long before the Tribals entered the area of modern day Kashmir. Sardar ibrahim was declared a full new government on 24th october and was declared president.

What i have written is mere summary but the fact is that the Azad forces created the conditions where Kashmir saw independence and their role in securing kashmir could not be underestimated.

That was a massive missed opportunity. While tribals and Azad forces were advancing, Pakistan was absent. The early leadership, especially the Lahore council is very much at fault here. The ignoring of this played a crucial role in the Major Akbar coup.

Anyhow nobody can ignore the role of Azad forces and least of all Pakistan. Our entire position on Kashmir demands you guys to have formed independently otherwise it would be nothing more than foreign annexation without the wishes of the people at ground.

 

[waz]

Maybe you are right but Wikipedia is a very neutral and authentic source of info.

It parts yes, it parts no. The South Asian section is flooded with Indian contributors.

 

[waz]

The role of Azad forces cannot be understated however the role of the tribals gets the most limelight was due to the fact that they had reached srinagar. What we must question is then why are the two roles separate but one gets most limelight whereas for the other, you have delve deep into the subject. First of all the Kashmir conflict of 1947 was not based on a single theater but on multiple theaters. We have the involvement of the Chitral princely state, Hunza princely state, Nagar princely state and then we have the Gilgit scouts and the counter role played by the nubra scouts and the Jammu and Kashmir state forces in Ladakh.

The pashtun tribal militia composed of various groups and they were to utilize the paths that went through Pakistan since Pakistan was well connected with the Kashmir region, much better than India. They utilized that road network and took on the embattled state forces, capturing strategic areas that led to srinagar. They were supported by Pakistan.

The poonch rebellion was the precursor for the Azad movement and its first incident was the spring 1947 revolt which happened before Pakistan and the more severe revolt in August. The rebellion shook the very core of the state of kashmir as the maharaja was severely worried that the revolt would spread. Sardar ibrahim declared the formation of the government and gujarat was named the Azad GHQ and this was in September if i am not wrong.

These are two different theaters. The pashtun lashkars went from rawalpindi road to Muzaffarabad and with the help of the local population, easily scattered the forces of kashmir state. the local population showed them the shorter and strategic routes. The locals joined the lashkars and went further 200km to srinagar and captured nearby teetwal. Local muslim population would offer them food but they refused fearing them to be poisoned. They were not nice to the non-muslim population but considering the madness of 1947.......

The Azad government played a crucial role in the southern theater of the war was very much part of the Azad forces and the role of the Azad forces is recognized in many books. They held the territories despite setbacks but then again, facing a professional army is something that is very hard and it cant be blamed on both the Azad forces nor on the tribals for the territory they had to retreat from.


Credit must be given everywhere as both were instrumental in securing the Kashmir that is independent and it must be stated that the Azad government was fighting and forming a provisional government long before the Tribals entered the area of modern day Kashmir. Sardar ibrahim was declared a full new government on 24th october and was declared president.

What i have written is mere summary but the fact is that the Azad forces created the conditions where Kashmir saw independence and their role in securing kashmir could not be underestimated.

That was a massive missed opportunity. While tribals and Azad forces were advancing, Pakistan was absent. The early leadership, especially the Lahore council is very much at fault here. The ignoring of this played a crucial role in the Major Akbar coup.

Anyhow nobody can ignore the role of Azad forces and least of all Pakistan. Our entire position on Kashmir demands you guys to have formed independently otherwise it would be nothing more than foreign annexation without the wishes of the people at ground.

Good post.
Muzaffarabad falling was a formality and Singh's forces had already been killed, with many fleeing. The push towards Srinagar wouldn't been able to happen without the Lashkers as there was reluctance among the AKRF to advance with a view to the already stretched supply lines and lack of heavy weapons, for the inevitable encounter with the Indian army proper. But morale and jazbah took them onwards.
Sadly as you stated in your post the lack of leadership from the Pakistani political class and with the army refrained from acting and busy elsewhere, the opportunity of a lifetime was lost. Had it been an operation headed by the army, even though the AKRF was made up of Second World Troops, senior officers were lacking, we would have seen all of Kashmir in our hands. The failure to secure the airport is just one major turning point.
Let's be honest, many of the political class still had a vision that Hyderabad would come to Pakistan, and were preoccupied with that, spending time and resources on it.

 

[waz]

Brothers with all due respect that's why I said maybe I am wrong. But I am basing my narrative not solely on Wikipedia but on what I heard from my elders and fellow pakistanis as well. @waz

Sadly many Pakistanis don't actually know much about the history of AJK. In fact I'd say most haven't even visited it.

 

[American Pakistani]

Afghans don't represent our Pushtun/Afghan population, just like Biharis/Uttar Pradeshis/Hyderabadis don't represent Karachities/Muhajirs or East Punjabis/Haryanvis don't represent Punjabis.

Salute to this young man.

 

[Trango Towers]

He didnt stand up for Pakistan....he is Pakistan and Pakistani. He did what every Pakistani should do

 

[saiyan0321]

Good post.
Muzaffarabad falling was a formality and Singh's forces had already been killed, with many fleeing. The push towards Srinagar wouldn't been able to happen without the Lashkers as there was reluctance among the AKRF to advance with a view to the already stretched supply lines and lack of heavy weapons, for the inevitable encounter with the Indian army proper. But morale and jazbah took them onwards.

Sardar Ibrahim had to spend some time to convince Pakistan to have the lashkars attack through muzaffarabad so that the state forces would be busy there leaving the road to srinagar open for Azad forces. Weirdly enough it was his plan which showcases that young man ( he was pretty young back then) prowess. He wanted Pakistan to lead the attack. In both the books Major Amin, Shuja Nawaz and ofcourse Akbar Khan, there is consensus that Pakistan had left men with old rifles, axes, swords, spears and sticks to the mercy of a force with artillery, machine guns and sub-machine guns. Morale and jazbah and ofcourse they had all realized it that any area not liberated will be lost forever. I mean if Yahya khan could see that the creation of Pakistan and India would mean the two nations fighting each other forever in 1947 then these world war 2 veterans could see this much atleast.

Sadly as you stated in your post the lack of leadership from the Pakistani political class and with the army refrained from acting and busy elsewhere, the opportunity of a lifetime was lost. Had it been an operation headed by the army, even though the AKRF was made up of Second World Troops, senior officers were lacking, we would have seen all of Kashmir in our hands. The failure to secure the airport is just one major turning point.

Opportunity of once in history. Indus had very aptly described the situation. A hill that could be captured with 500 men back then would see failure even if attempt was made by tens of thousands. A region that was taken over from a force of tens of thousands seems lost even to an assault by 100s of thousands. Strategic areas are very important and the airport was very strategic. It definitely would have frustrated the Indian attempts to land troops right at the front and would have contained their supply lines. Where the locals played an important role in our victory, many played an important role in aiding Indian landing efforts as well. I think the village near haji pir pass made a wooden runway for Indian soldiers to land on. However yes the lack of support was criminal and the more you read about the more you want to bang your head on the wall. Akbar was not happy, Major amin was definitely not happy and others were hiding their frustration by either putting down the lashkars and the Azad forces or enlarging the role they or pakistan army had played. You see this in Akbar's book as well as he questions the military capability of the Lashkars and the AKRF whereas exaggerates his role in stopping the Indian advance and saving muzaffarabad on the contrary amin points that winter and the defensive position of Muzaffarabad and the Indian supply lines being stretched themselves and harassed as well, played a more crucial role.

It really is. Gilgit Baltistan also suffered. We lost some serious strategic areas in Ladakh where the Gilgit scouts had to abandon positions. Zoji la pass was one of them. The pass was captured months before its fall to India but the scouts could not advance to leh, the center of Ladakh due to lack of military reserves and supplies, something the absence of Pakistan could have covered. Ladakh and srinagar were right in the grasp and we lost them both. Zoji la fell on november. Tanks against scouts. We need our heads examined.

Let's be honest, many of the political class still had a vision that Hyderabad would come to Pakistan, and were preoccupied with that, spending time and resources on it.

Absolutely. I wont blame Jinnah since he was an old man, sick and had the burden of an entire nation and he was barely involved. Wasnt even present in the lahore conference but where were the rest of them. Liaqat ali was very excited in the Lahore conference but half of them were just that. Excited. Not a single one of them had the guts to initiate conflict with India. Akbar and there was another one, were secretly making plans to send armored vehicles behind the backs of command and they would tell the command that the vehicles were broken. Nobody was going to check but then our dear leadership bursts in screaming whether they wanted war with Inda.

Kalat state and Hyderabad. Hyderabad was a massive interest for India as well and it was its weakness. Patel asking pakistan for exchange of kashmir for Hyderabad was basically stating that you capture one princely state that had opted for independence and we capture another and we wont say anything to each other. We ofcourse refused and India still went ahead with Hyderabad. Indians owe alot to patel. He didnt shirk from conflict even when Nehru was shirking. He wasnt screaming at his military advisors saying whether they wanted war with Pakistan or not and that was the difference.

The past makes a painful study and we realized it soon that the area is lost and now nothing short of absolute breakdown of the Indian government and army, will bring any relief to the people of Kashmir. The modern state system is also very cruel in this nature that the state so formed is kept together by the conscious or subconscious effort of the world.

Sadly many Pakistanis don't actually know much about the history of AJK. In fact I'd say most haven't even visited it.

I would say they dont know much about AJK per se. Much less about the history itself and their lack of knowledge on the administration of GB and AJK is abysmal to say the least but where there is lack of knowledge, there is awareness. People are trying to find out and learn from it and are working so that the people of AJK and GB can get proper representation in Pakistan decision making and why not? They deserve it and it is their right to demand as such. If pakistan can demand the powers in the 1949 Karachi agreement then the loyal people of AJK and GB can demand representation and voice in the state decision making atleast and this must be respected.