Sadly PMLN government will be toppled in few days. Inside source

[Amaa'n]

i have been taking this topic a bit lightly, because i myself had no damn idea what was going to happen in next few hours --however there is something i did not agree in your post "Establishment backing up PTI - or PTI being used as PAWN"

let me say few things and its for you to decide ----
1) starting off with Operation - it was Ch. Nisar - an MNA and Federal Minister of PMLN, who opposed the idea of Dialogue with Taliban since march - he wanted the operation, and yet PMLN / NS went ahead for talks ---
2) coming back to Last week of july, when Ch. Nisar proposed the idea of Article 245 and inviting Military into the capital ---
3) he defended this idea in his best capacity --- had he not invited the military in red zone, we wouldn't be seeking, Military allowing the protestors some space ----
4) coming back to march, then first he allows the protest, then it was him who allowed to protest to happen at Serena chowk ---
5) then came the idea of Red Zone, It was him who insisted on allowing the protestors into the red zone, or else face massive clashes ---
these are some facts -- not just a bunch of theories ---

As a diehard supporter of PMLN, I came to know from an inside source that many institutes including the military have completely stopped following the orders of federal government and the writ of government is now limited to some provincial departments of Punjab. The government has lost over 80% of the writ of state and right now the only independent institute that is working in full capacity is the judiciary.

Interior ministry has completely lost its grip and right now the tasks given to the interior ministry are being fulfilled by the military.

I never thought to see this day in my life when Nawaz Sharif was finally elected last year but today I am extremely sad and disheartened to see the party I loved dearly collapse slowly before my eyes.

Anyways, its not a victory for PTI or PAT as they were just pawns used by the military and some foreign forces to topple the government. PTI and PAT were simply used as an excuse to take over the government. PTI and PAT were supported by the military and that is the reason why they were not only allowed to march inside the red zone, but also received an extensive media coverage. PTI and PAT also gave many clues in their speeches and addresses about the government being toppled soon. Sheikh Rashid and Q league had strong contacts with the military during the whole ordeal and they basically guided PTI and PAT on various course of actions.

Right now the federal government is in negotiations on forming a national government with PPP and in talks with PAT to provide blood money for the model town victims and taking back the murder and tax cases against each other.

Now that the government will be going in few days, I can only hope that the multi million and billion dollar projects that were started in its tenure are carried on and finished in time.

 

[Fracker]

1. Does ONE economic marker point you in that direction?...........

Yes, check IMF and World Bank indicators...4.1% and 4.3% next year...

2. Do you see ANY judicial reforms by the end?

It depends people priorities

3. Do you see ONE electoral reform by the end of their tenure?

Committee already been made, it's just IK who is avoiding it

4. Do you see ANY police reforms?

Don't know about police reforms, but definitely Law reforms in under process...

etc etc etc........??????

Power: 36 projects handed over to china
Economy: Gwadar port, steel mills, raily, stock exchange, investments all keywords to huge story behid

You say yes, categorically, you'll have me supporting Nawaz for two more terms in power.

No...they should be done...so you want NS to loot further while we figure out how that can be done?

No I committee is already been made, I want Imran Khan to lead the committee from which he is running out..

 

[Amaa'n]

Of course it's my opinion, but it is based on reality. Show me evidence that IK has won. Show me evidence that what PTI has demanded (PM resignation), will occur.

Instead of just saying I'm wrong, why don't you start by telling me why I'm wrong.

neither of the sides have won - infact its not even about lossing and winning anymore, its more about ego now.....
the only thing lost is --- Billions of Ruppees in stockmarket and front all road closures ---

Yes, check IMF and World Bank indicators...4.1% and 4.3% next year...



It depends people priorities



Committee already been made, it's just IK who is avoiding it



Don't know about police reforms, but definitely Law reforms in under process...


Power: 36 projects handed over to china
Economy: Gwadar port, steel mills, raily, stock exchange, investments all keywords to huge story behid

You say yes, categorically, you'll have me supporting Nawaz for two more terms in power.


No I committee is already been made, I want Imran Khan to lead the committee from which he is running out..

hahaha you talking about same committee which been headed by Ishaq Dar ---jokemuch???
btw you wana talk about how bringing down Dollar artificially has helped the economy??

 

[That Guy]

True....and all that was provided but instead it was "considerably" looted coz it was wasted by cheating so go fine those involved and build your budget!



Yet we saw cheating from all over even money given to judiciary care takers....

ECP is very much questionable ...



Well the ECP should have thought of it earlier when they failed to provide "fair" elections...

Again, no one is saying that electoral reform shouldn't take place, but you need to be realistic about elections. Even if electoral reforms take place, it will still take years for the ECP to fully be ready for new elections, especially under newer guidelines.

neither of the sides have won - infact its not even about lossing and winning anymore, its more about ego now.....
the only thing lost is --- Billions of Ruppees in stockmarket and front all road closures ---

I disagree, there is a clear winner here. What PML-N needed was to remain politically strong, and they ended up doing just that. PTI's position has weakened considerably, which is why they're willing to negotiate now.

 

[Dubious]

Again, no one is saying that electoral reform shouldn't take place, but you need to be realistic about elections. Even if electoral reforms take place, it will still take years for the ECP to fully be ready for new elections, especially under newer guidelines.

Man is ECP made of NS cement that it will take forever? How tough can it be to follow new regulations?

 

[Jungibaaz]

Last one completed it's tenure as well...... what assurances do you have, that if, the present one completes it's tenure as well, you'll have a better Pakistan in the end?

1. Does ONE economic marker point you in that direction?
2. Do you see ANY judicial reforms by the end?
3. Do you see ONE electoral reform by the end of their tenure?
4. Do you see ANY police reforms?

etc etc etc........??????

You say yes, categorically, you'll have me supporting Nawaz for two more terms in power.

Mate, the present system has outlived it's usefulness (uselessness)..... there's no other way than to fix it through shock and awe, anything in between will have us making compromises.......... enough of academic debates, make up your mind and follow what makes sense to you...........

On 1. Hardly, nothing's there to suggest real reform or real recovery, and if there is any sign of it, upon closer inspection it's short term and artificial.

2. None whatsoever..

3. That depends on the whether and how they are pressed to do so.

4. No.

I am not in support of this government, I know they can do nothing for Pakistanis except teach them a lesson. The present system is flawed, but mate, every system there ever was has been deeply flawed in the beginning, Pakistan's system is only a few years old, the previous terms become irrelevant when you uproot it.

Quite frankly, if tomorrow NS resigned, miraculously, PMLN dissolved and PPP along with it, and many others. Do I trust these people to bring the change themselves? I don't, I think the only way this country is going to change is if it forces the change using the system. We've not tried this before, every time it gets a bit tough we cry and call for the army.

Besides, the time is not right to be forcing an elected government to stand down, and to stand down at the will of groups who don't have majority support.

Now TuQ I oppose for others reasons than what his aims are, you can see that in the other thread. PTI was very different before the elections, their resemblance to older parties of the 90's is uncanny. Same hordes of politicians who've been around in many different parties are now in PTI. Still if anyone asked which I'd be most inclined to support it'd be PTI, but not off the back of one man Imran Khan, this sort of system will never work.

 

[Dubious]

No I committee is already been made, I want Imran Khan to lead the committee from which he is running out..

Hmmm....a committee is already made? When with who in it? More corrupts to push the blame on IK if it goes south?

 

[That Guy]

Man is ECP made of NS cement that it will take forever? How tough can it be to follow new regulations?

Good question, and one not very many people ask.

People don't seem to understand that it can take years because of bureaucracy. It doesn't matter who's in charge, this is how the system works everywhere. New laws and guidelines usually don't take affect for years at a time, because institutions need time to adjust to the new rules.

ECP is no exception, if new guidelines are put into place, new elections before NS's mandate ends, will be next to impossible. As much as it doesn't sound like it, demanding new early elections and electoral reforms, are contradictory demands. By asking for electoral reforms, you have to forfeit your demands for an early election.

This is why I don't like PTI's stance, and call them unrealistic.

PTI's heads know better, but they continue to two IK's line, when they should be the first ones to warn IK of his demands.

 

[Dubious]

this is how the system works everywhere

that is what needs change!

because institutions need time to adjust to the new rules.

institutions need to be flexible in order to adapt otherwise they are too old and should be flushed away!

By asking for electoral reforms, you have to forfeit your demands for an early election.

Well, lets see what they are cooking...Like I said I am only for change not for a particular party...

 

[Chak Bamu]

In the next 48 hours, youll know for sure whose side the military is on. Why is it that Q league, Sheikh, PTI and PAT have been giving so many clues about military take over? They are so confidence that they have not moved an inch from the D-chowk, and have also tendered their resignations

My observation is a little different. The day when PAT & PTI occupied Red zone, they tried their best to intimidate and pressurize, especially TuQ. Though there were fewer members in the Assembly hall, they stuck to their guns, and refused to take any pressure, the next day their pressure was a lot less, and yesterday, there was hardly anything. It seemed to me that the worse was over. Let us see how things go.

There is such a thing as Deep State, we have seen how it functions in countries like Egypt and Thailand. Judiciary is a subservient, but important component of Deep State. Without its support Dictators can not function with a legal fig leaf to cover their power grab. In Pakistan, Judiciary seems more or less independent. Also most elements of bureaucracy have seen the disturbance and destruction of Musharraf years and they are not going to support Army rule.

An intervention by Army would be a very risky venture, because this time it would not get support that it has often received. In fact there would be wide-spread resistance. Deep state is no more in Pakistan. I see your apprehensions as an indication of nervousness.

Wow is PMLN soo dependent on $$$$$ and investors and loans? Is that all PMLN is made off? IF the bloody party had made local products or invested in the country itself...We wouldnt be sooo damn reliant on others!

I find it should be shameful even after decades in politics PMLN still is a beggar party!

Pakistan is a victim of resource constraint, lack of receipts via direct taxation, has to finance an ongoing war, and going through instability. From Musharraf's time onwards, nobody has invested in country-wide infrastructure projects. The last big project completed was Ghazi-Brotha power project, that was nearing completion when PML government was toppled by Musharraf. During Musharraf's regime we had almost no additions of natural gas reservoirs, but we did follow a great expansion of gas usage via CNG in road transportation. The result in in front of us today.

You can not reasonably expect a 14 month old government to do anything to solve any of the entrenched problems. While our country has almost no cash reserves and whatever is available must go to covering import bill, we can not invest in much-needed infrastructure with our own money. So, from where would needed finance become available?

Your question about PML-N being dependent on '$$$$$' is too innocent. You really should be talking about Pakistan. PML-N is only a political party.

Our Chinese friends have agreed to invest in Pakistan's infrastructure and for that we need not invest much of our own money. But the first requirement for it to happen is stability.

I agree with @Aether that PTI shenanigans seem focused on not letting PML-N achieve any of its goals to the detriment of Pakistan. Already we have seen USD jump from less than 99 to more than 101. This is going to raise inflation. Guess who will be blamed for it? Now guess who is actually responsible? I hope this is enough for you to get the picture.

 

[Amaa'n]

Is NS going anywhere - well i believe yes ---is PMLN Govt anywhere - i don't think so

 

[That Guy]

that is what needs change!

institutions need to be flexible in order to adapt otherwise they are too old and should be flushed away!

Actually, no. This must remain the same, because if institutions aren't given enough time to implement changes, then nothing will get done. Like it or not, bureaucracy has a very vital purpose, which ensures safe and orderly change and management.

Haphazardly implementing change can bring chaos, and there is no guarantee that the new guidelines put in place, will be used effectively.

It is a slow process, but there is a purpose to it. You don't boil rice for 2 second and expect it to be cooked, no you need time to boil it down properly, and make it safe for consumption.

Well, lets see what they are cooking...Like I said I am only for change not for a particular party...

I don't think they're cooking anything. PTI is out of options, which is why they're negotiating.

I also don't care who's in power. People mistake me for being a Noon-league supporter, but I've made it clear that I think NS is a buffoon. The only thing I support is the rule of law, and constitutional order.

I sincerely hope that IK is honest enough to not blame the current economic downturn on NS, because it's clear that it was a direct result of the protests. These protests have done a lot of damage to Pakistan's economy, and I hope that IK won't use it as a weapon.

 

[Viper0011.]

As a diehard supporter of PMLN, I came to know from an inside source that many institutes including the military have completely stopped following the orders of federal government and the writ of government is now limited to some provincial departments of Punjab. The government has lost over 80% of the writ of state and right now the only independent institute that is working in full capacity is the judiciary. .

I had a dream that a Korea General was issuing orders to the Pakistani leadership and IK was getting a LOT of work done in KPK...........then I woke up and saw KPK still the mess it is and the Koreans 40 years more advanced than Pakistan.....

 

[Emmie]

Good question, and one not very many people ask.

People don't seem to understand that it can take years because of bureaucracy. It doesn't matter who's in charge, this is how the system works everywhere. New laws and guidelines usually don't take affect for years at a time, because institutions need time to adjust to the new rules.

ECP is no exception, if new guidelines are put into place, new elections before NS's mandate ends, will be next to impossible. As much as it doesn't sound like it, demanding new early elections and electoral reforms, are contradictory demands. By asking for electoral reforms, you have to forfeit your demands for an early election.

This is why I don't like PTI's stance, and call them unrealistic.

PTI's heads know better, but they continue to two IK's line, when they should be the first ones to warn IK of his demands.

Pal you have no idea what actually haunts Pakistan's electoral system, trust you me it's not elections laws, rules and regulations. Ones who are appointed to make sure that no principle law is violated actually haunt the system we are talking about. When we say election reforms we actually say "transparency of the elections".

 

[Edevelop]

Someone just told me PTI is offering Rs.500 per day to attend their dharnas.

I know this is true because last year i heard the same story. One of my maids told me Qadri was giving out Rs. 5000, food, drinks, transport, and tour of Lahore City to people from her village.