SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[MastanKhan]

Dear MastanKhan,

with all due respect, your post surprises me and even if we did not always share the same opinion, I always respect yours. Here however - and I hope this ruins not everything - it is either a fundamental misunderstanding or indeed I cannot say differently, a plain stupid idea.

1. even if similar in overall appearance, in configuration or layout, to call the FC-31 a twin-engine F-35 is stupid. I'm always annoyed - in fact pissed-off - by the same stupid US accusations, but these constant copy & paste theories are s much stupid that I really cannot hold my horses. Therefore I'm flattered that You follow this ... or do you also think the A320 is a copied B737 and even more the C919 a "conversion of an Airbus?

2. No, the fuselage of the FC-31 cannot be rebuilt to fit only one engine, that's exactly as stupid as these similar stupid claims, "just take two RD-93, mate them and you have a twin-engine JF-17".
To say, the overall configuration, lay-out and concept could be taken, and redesigned around a decent engine like the WS-15, that would be possible, but result de facto in a new design.
Do you really think aeronautical design, engineering and manufacturing is so easy, just like plug & play on a Samsung mobile? Therefore again sorry to say so, but if You really believe this, then I'm indeed arrogant ...

3. The epitome of stupidity is to think one WS-19 - as done in his artwork No. 3 - could substitute two RD-93/WS-13. Do you guys at least sometimes try to think about such proposals? How could a ~100kN engine with the size of the RD-93 substitute 2x about 80 kN?? To enable this at least a similar thrust performance would be necessary and even with a WS-15 it would be difficult since we are again at point 2 of my explanation.

So again I hope it is more a misunderstanding based on different definition ... otherwise I deeply regret the situation, but I will hold my opinion.

Best regards,
Deino

Hi,

You are going on and on with your post---stop for a moment and think---.

A single engine will be built in its own suitable size---maybe smaller in size---.

A single engine fuselage will be built on its own merits---.

All aircrafts are copies of either one or the other in some ways---.

Myself as someone with engineering background I think that others would also think that the parameters of single engine fuselage design would be kept foremost when designing a single engine aircraft and not that of a twin engine---even though the nose---the profile---the wings the twins tails will be more similar or the same---.

The parameters of the stealth design have been met---so if they have to configure a single engine aircraft---the majority of the work has been done---.

Most of the plug and play has been done designing the J31---.

It is not stupid to call the J31 a twin engine F35---the whole world has been calling it---the US military consortium and the US intel agy and the US congress and the US senate has called it---every defense related and not defense related magazine has called it---. if you have not---then it is upto you---.

At the end of the end---when the 5th gen single engine Paf aircraft comes out---it would almost be a twin of the J31 inus one engine---and not twin in the movie 'TWINS'---.

People with limited knowledge in aircraft design ( I too am among them however have already offers from universities to study the same topic ) think aircraft are just plug and play ? And all the talk of the J31= Copied f35 is such utter rubbish , physically speaking it is, even if the said 'design ' is copied and stolen by Chinese hackers or so they say ( also rubbish as one is dual engine and the other single so all the fuel allocation etc I'm not gonna dive deeper) , then did they also copy every single piece of code ? If it's copied won't they also need to have copied the engine ? The radar ? The eots? The IBMS ? FADEC ? HMD? TDL? Doesn't this mean China already has supposedly already copied the entirety of the cream of nato technology ? Wouldn't this just mean China is already way more advanced than the West so it won't even have needed to copy in the first place ? The paradox which they subtly refuse to answer,

Hi,

They may have copied it but building it is a different thing---.

So stop this british habiot of chewing your words---looking sarcastic and acting arrogant---.

The US intel agy's the senate the congress and every magazine in the world calle dthe J31 a copy of the F35---.

Who and what are you to challenge that---do you have any substance---talking big---.

Nothing is plug and play per say---you assume it is---because when you hear a conversation---you respond to it at your level of thinking and understanding---.

When i say it---it is taking into consideration my 30 plus years of professional experience by default in expecting the READER WILL HAVE COMMON SENSE AND BRAINS to understand that any venture a nation is taking has considered the ups and downs and the difficulties associated with it---.

 

[Army research]

Hi,

You are going on and on with your post---stop for a moment and think---.

A single engine will be built in its own suitable size---maybe smaller in size---.

A single engine fuselage will be built on its own merits---.

All aircrafts are copies of either one or the other in some ways---.

Myself as someone with engineering background I think that others would also think that the parameters of single engine fuselage design would be kept foremost when designing a single engine aircraft and not that of a twin engine---even though the nose---the profile---the wings the twins tails will be more similar or the same---.

The parameters of the stealth design have been met---so if they have to configure a single engine aircraft---the majority of the work has been done---.

Most of the plug and play has been done designing the J31---.

It is not stupid to call the J31 a twin engine F35---the whole world has been calling it---the US military consortium and the US intel agy and the US congress and the US senate has called it---every defense related and not defense related magazine has called it---. if you have not---then it is upto you---.

At the end of the end---when the 5th gen single engine Paf aircraft comes out---it would almost be a twin of the J31 inus one engine---and not twin in the movie 'TWINS'---.



Hi,

They may have copied it but building it is a different thing---.

So stop this british habiot of chewing your words---looking sarcastic and acting arrogant---.

The US intel agy's the senate the congress and every magazine in the world calle dthe J31 a copy of the F35---.

Who and what are you to challenge that---do you have any substance---talking big---.

Nothing is plug and play per say---you assume it is---because when you hear a conversation---you respond to it at your level of thinking and understanding---.

When i say it---it is taking into consideration my 30 plus years of professional experience by default in expecting the READER WILL HAVE COMMON SENSE AND BRAINS to understand that any venture a nation is taking has considered the ups and downs and the difficulties associated with it---.

Sir I may be in Britain right now , but respectuflly I have very limited British habits and have been raised up on the streets of Rawalpindi,
I wasn't looking to be sarcastic rather I presented questions and a paradox that you have yet not answered except in vague terms ,
Also respectfully sir when you say western magazines , congress and us intelligence calls it a copy , well sir they also call pakistan a hub for terrorists and many think of us as nothing but flat herders ,
Also my habit which you have negatively portrayed as arrogance and chewing words up, it's come not from Britain rather my English teacher in saint Mary's, lalazar Rawalpindi teached me this , a fine teacher Allah forgive her soul
As for my substance for supposedly talking big sir , I firstly always mention as I have above in the brackets, that I am no source however I have a insurmountable interest in the aviation industry ranging from single person carrying quadcopters to the craft that will launch sattelites into low orbit , and I have the most interest in defence aircraft especially the fifth gens ( minus the Su 57 ) ,
I've talked to many many people of varying roles in PAC and airforce sir , I speak based on these and my own experiences ,
Apologies if I may have offended you as you are a senior member of this forum one I've being reading posts of even before joining this forum 6 years ago when I was only 12 ,

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir I may be in Britain right now , but respectuflly I have very limited British habits and have been raised up on the streets of Rawalpindi,
I wasn't looking to be sarcastic rather I presented questions and a paradox that you have yet not answered except in vague terms ,
Also respectfully sir when you say western magazines , congress and us intelligence calls it a copy , well sir they also call pakistan a hub for terrorists and many think of us as nothing but flat herders ,
Also my habit which you have negatively portrayed as arrogance and chewing words up, it's come not from Britain rather my English teacher in saint Mary's, lalazar Rawalpindi teached me this , a fine teacher Allah forgive her soul
As for my substance for supposedly talking big sir , I firstly always mention as I have above in the brackets, that I am no source however I have a insurmountable interest in the aviation industry ranging from single person carrying quadcopters to the craft that will launch sattelites into low orbit , and I have the most interest in defence aircraft especially the fifth gens ( minus the Su 57 ) ,
I've talked to many many people of varying roles in PAC and airforce sir , I speak based on these and my own experiences ,
Apologies if I may have offended you as you are a senior member of this forum one I've being reading posts of even before joining this forum 6 years ago when I was only 12 ,

Hi,

Thanks for your post---. I am one of the very very few members who have talked about the engineering difficulties of copying and producing a viable machine for the last 15 years over here---.

JF17 was a massive hill to climb for the Paf and the Chinese---. The second hill the Paf climbed was the changes in the J10's---.

The 3rd change that came about from the input of Paf---I would not discuss it and bring it out here---.

Just let me put it this way---without the input of Paf---the J10 would not be the aircraft that it is---.

The next item that came about was the J31 and the J20---. So---the stealth design is out of the box---. From an engineering point of view---it is not an outrageous project like a fighter aircraft engine---.

So---that hill has been crossed as well---. Be it a twin engine or a single engine aircraft---it is not that big of a deal as it was 10 years ago---. If it was a big deal---Paf would not have talked about doing project AZM---.

The big deal is still the power plant---the big deal is still the EW package---the big deal is the modern helmet to use an off bore-sight missile---.

So---if the Paf decides to build a 5th gen aircraft---and not buy the J31---then it would be an aircraft slightly larger than the JF17--ask why---the answer would be---because they feel comfortable with that size---JF17---F16---Mirage 3/5---.

If they had wanted a bigger aircraft---they would have picked up the JH7A for strike roles---and the J31 for stealth roles---.

But then with Paf---you never know till they show---.

 

[Deino]

Hi,

You are going on and on with your post---stop for a moment and think---.

A single engine will be built in its own suitable size---maybe smaller in size---.

A single engine fuselage will be built on its own merits---.

All aircrafts are copies of either one or the other in some ways---.

Myself as someone with engineering background I think that others would also think that the parameters of single engine fuselage design would be kept foremost when designing a single engine aircraft and not that of a twin engine---even though the nose---the profile---the wings the twins tails will be more similar or the same---.

The parameters of the stealth design have been met---so if they have to configure a single engine aircraft---the majority of the work has been done---.

Most of the plug and play has been done designing the J31---.

It is not stupid to call the J31 a twin engine F35---the whole world has been calling it---the US military consortium and the US intel agy and the US congress and the US senate has called it---every defense related and not defense related magazine has called it---. if you have not---then it is upto you---.

At the end of the end---when the 5th gen single engine Paf aircraft comes out---it would almost be a twin of the J31 inus one engine---and not twin in the movie 'TWINS'---.

Yes, all aircraft are copies ... the Airbus of the Wright Flyer and the Concorde of B-29, nothing more to say.

To admit, in a short sentence, I'm out and I really feel sorry, that you decided not to pick up the explanation of different definitions of what is a copy to explain our dispute, while instead still think "Most of the plug and play has been done designing the J31---."

So if You think indeed, the AZM will look like a single engined FC-31, if you even think it could be done with one WS-19 based on the same airframe by Pakistan and that all in a few years I wish You luck ... but then I cannot help.

And if you think I'm arrogant even after this explanation, then I simply have to live on with this, but it will not change my mind and each and everyone with aeronautical understanding would agree. Designing an aircraft is not plug & play and the reason why all US magazines and official sources call it a copy is, since its fits well into their political agenda to bash against Chinese or anything from China. But anyway ...

 

[serenity]

Sorry but FC-31 will never be made into single engine fighter. What engine you will use? WS-15 is only one powerful enough for such a frame. If you want a smaller frame to fit WS-19 you need to redesign entire FC-31. Entire thing down to the fasteners. More time then to retest everything and some time to tool factory for production. Second and third step are not even done yet with FC-31 prototypes. So single engine FC-31 can be made without waste in those departments but redesign work will take time and no way Pakistan alone can provide all the funding. China doesn't want a single engine FC-31. If SAC thinks PAF or PLAAF wanted single engine, they would start with that prototype. Chinese air manufacturers still don't have 100% trust in Chinese engine manufacturers yet. Especially the powerful engines with more than F110 level thrust. J-10 still use Russian engines because WS-10 less reliable than even Russian engine.

This project if it becomes PAF fighter or PLAAF PLAN fighter in future will 100% be double engine and most likely using WS-19. No resizing. This isn't making a suit or adjusting your watch. Entire balance and stress profile changes.

 

[TheTallGuy]

My pick is Project AZM is - Modified J31V2 or V3 anything other is just not doable and does not make sense. we cant afford an aircraft 5th Gen built from scratch. J31 Technology demonstrator provide bases to work on future.

This is the most cost saving way possible!

 

[serenity]

My pick is Project AZM is - Modified J31V2 or V3 anything other is just not doable and does not make sense. we cant afford an aircraft 5th Gen built from scratch. J31 Technology demonstrator provide bases to work on future.

This is the most cost saving way possible!

Most important quality about such a fighter is stealth. Seems like after J-20 work, maybe FC-31 can be made to same level of stealth. No need to change too much about other small details. After the shaping and manufacturing details, just equip with latest radar and electronics that can be afforded and can take on IAF and be upgraded in future. Single engine is too dangerous with new high performance engine. Unproven reliability and probably takes years to refine until point where the engineers understand early bugs.

Two WS-19 is better than one WS-15. More expensive but already the frame design is basically done.

 

[TheTallGuy]

@MastanKhan

We had experience of operating F-16s at the time of JF17 this is how we played a crucial role..now its opposite..we have no exposure to 5th Gen Aircraft and china has one design operational and one technological demonstrator..now we should listen to them as well.

Honestly, J31 Design is quite good and since China has the engines WS19 about to be ready or may be already ready ..there commitment of FOC by 2023 look reasonable.

Project AZM is JV between Pakistan-China (J31V2 or V3) no redesign no cut sizing ...it is developed with the Pakistani needs in mind...

 

[LKJ86]

It is not stupid to call the J31 a twin engine F35---the whole world has been calling it---the US military consortium and the US intel agy and the US congress and the US senate has called it---every defense related and not defense related magazine has called it---. if you have not---then it is upto you---.

So, TF-X, KF-X, and F-3 should be called F-22?

 

[Rank]

1. Pakistan does not have any capacity, capability or knowledge to develop 5 Gen fighter to be very frank. Project AZM is nothing but a piece of paper sorry to say (Not undermining ourself but logically speaking we are nowhere in R&D of developing state-of-the-art weapon systems with high-performance applications). Even Turkey having long expertise in F16 still their 5Gen project is only on paper.

2. Anything coming from China will be the last bet for PAF in accordance to 5 Gen (most probably J31).

3. At first glance, J31 completely failed to attract audience because of its engines performance and also lack of interest by the Chinese AF in the aircraft afterwards.

4. China never make anything for Pakistan. They had zero interest in developing JF17 thunder (rather a testing platform or R&D purpose). Later when Pakistan officially jumps into the FC program (long story short our stupid AF think tanks wasted 1 and half decade to realized that the Americans are ******— looking for something cheaper to maintain and need something for a longer-run with no fear of sanctions, FC program was the last option at that time. When Pakistanis have shown interest into the FC program, then Chinese gotta hint okay we will help you to develop this to serve your needs else Chinese had zero interest.

5. J31 is again only designed and developed for the Chinese Air Force. If Pakistan need this, we should again become a part but we can’t modify from 2 X to 1 engine. The aircraft completely designed according to the core requirement of Chinese Airforce not for us or any third party technically.

6. Seems like platform design somehow close to F35 JSF, but the aircraft with two engines clearly shows they have something in their mind which is “carrier based naval platform” where you need power-pack machine for take-off and landing.

7. Again because of lack of interest by the PLAA, platform suffers a-lot. They want it but they’re not hurry... if Pakistan need it, we have to become a part of this project officially then might be Chinese will push this project faster...

 

[Muhammad Omar]

It's amazing that anyone can use photoshop and make a twin engine jet with single engine

Pure aeronautics engineering

 

[MastanKhan]

So, TF-X, KF-X, and F-3 should be called F-22?

Hi,

You may call them whatever you want them to---but their design was initiated by the F22 / F35---.

If Paf had no fear of repercussions from the US---the JF17 would have looked exactly like the F16---.

None of those countries behind those aircraft type references that you gave had the capability of knowing about stealth design---.

They had no experience of stealth---they did not know from where to start and where to finish---.

Stealth design is not a myth anymore---.

What is myth is what is hidden in that skin---what is behind that skin---what is being carried inside of that skin---that is where the real secrets lie---and to copy those items is like conquering the K-2 in a blizzard---.

 

[mdmm]

MastanKhan wrote that,
""JF17 was a massive hill to climb for the Paf and the Chinese---. The second hill the Paf climbed was the changes in the J10's---....
The 3rd change that came about from the input of Paf---I would not discuss it and bring it out here--
*****************************************************************************
I am overseas Pakistan without deep info about PAF.Kindly explain above sentences.Did you mean Pakistan is getting or making J 10 with China ??

 

[messiach]

There is no such scientific term as stealth. What we have is a relative envelop of undetectibility. This is little dependant on aerdynamics.

Hi,

You may call them whatever you want them to---but their design was initiated by the F22 / F35---.

If Paf had no fear of repercussions from the US---the JF17 would have looked exactly like the F16---.

None of those countries behind those aircraft type references that you gave had the capability of knowing about stealth design---.

They had no experience of stealth---they did not know from where to start and where to finish---.

Stealth design is not a myth anymore---.

What is myth is what is hidden in that skin---what is behind that skin---what is being carried inside of that skin---that is where the real secrets lie---and to copy those items is like conquering the K-2 in a blizzard---.

 

[MastanKhan]

There is no such scientific term as stealth. What we have is a relative envelop of undetectibility. This is little dependant on aerdynamics.

Hi,

Yes ma'am---that term is for us illiterate types to make us look smart---.

MastanKhan wrote that,
""JF17 was a massive hill to climb for the Paf and the Chinese---. The second hill the Paf climbed was the changes in the J10's---....
The 3rd change that came about from the input of Paf---I would not discuss it and bring it out here--
*****************************************************************************
I am overseas Pakistan without deep info about PAF.Kindly explain above sentences.Did you mean Pakistan is getting or making J 10 with China ??