SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[Kompromat]

TVC would add some weight to the F-35. Wouldn't that be countered by increased thrust planned for later models of the F135.
For starters, witness the B model nozzle assembly. Consider. A and C models are single engine/single nozzle aircraft restricted to ceilings well below F-22, and high altitude is where TVC can pay off. TVC on all models F-35 would only impose penalties. Granted, it does sound like a fine idea for C model takeoffs until you consider "roll rate" and rapid loss of lift given single engine and nozzie. 0.02

Bigger engine = more fuel consumption = lower loiter time = reduced battle effectiveness.

 

[NKVD]

Bigger engine = more fuel consumption = lower loiter time = reduced battle effectiveness.

TVC has little or no use at Medium-Low Altitudes???

I did not say that re F-22 with substantially longer tail lever arm and two TVC units vice F-35. I am saying that for F-35 single engine on centerline stationment. How do you generate torque using F-22 TVC for F-35, a centerline engine/nozzle combination? How do you counter unwanted torque in a productive way with TVC F-35?

Also, while the TVC would add some weight to the F-35. Wouldn't that be countered by increased thrust planned for later models of the F135.

TVC weight is but one penalty, but it's a valid one. I claim all it can accomplish is to snap the nose in a useful way - arguably.

What do you believe TVC on F-35 would achieve? I mean, you want the option.

 

[Kompromat]

TVC has little or no use at Medium-Low Altitudes???

I did not say that re F-22 with substantially longer tail lever arm and two TVC units vice F-35. I am saying that for F-35 single engine on centerline stationment. How do you generate torque using F-22 TVC for F-35, a centerline engine/nozzle combination? How do you counter unwanted torque in a productive way with TVC F-35?

Also, while the TVC would add some weight to the F-35. Wouldn't that be countered by increased thrust planned for later models of the F135.

TVC weight is but one penalty, but it's a valid one. I claim all it can accomplish is to snap the nose in a useful way - arguably.

What do you believe TVC on F-35 would achieve? I mean, you want the option.

TVC makes sense for an aircraft the size of F-22, J-20 and T-50 but for F-35 and FC-31, i don't see its merits. Personally i would want to see full spectrum sensor fusion and supercruise in FC-31 if China can bring in a 100kn engine.

 

[MastanKhan]

Master Khan.

Re TVC brush off not brining anything.

F22 RAPTOR
J20 CHINA
PAK FA Russia

ALL HAVE TVC ......There is a reason why !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AND this notion that ALL WILL WELL IN 5 YEARS is blind faith....

TRY 10 YEARS

Hi,

You don't know what I know-----. If you don't want to believe it----that is not my problem.

Just remember many a years ago I stated----on JF 17 it would be 8 to 10 years----.

As for J31----it is 5 years from the word go----. Every thing else is in its final stages----this is a modular design---it is plug and play. There are 3 issues---if they are over come on a fastrak----there might be a surprise waiting at or around 4 years time period.

As for you---it is just wait and see---as for me---it is what I know.

 

[razgriz19]

For your kind information(which you should verify from Chinese sources instead of self speculations) J-20's initial role will be of a pure air supremacy fighter for countering the threats of western 5th gen fighters & keeping the Chinese "shores" safe, multirole capabilities will be added in later variants. & As per Chinese sources it's more stealthy+maneuverable than J-31. J-31 was dropped by PLAAF because it wasn't "good enough" for them so Shenyang decided to carry it on it's own as an "export product" just like JF-17 which was never inducted by China.
Bigger size is the + point of J-20, & you should read about the testing reports by US Air Force stating that in simulations the F-22's were able to penetrate Chinese air space & come back successfully but wouldn't be able to make it back to stations because of low fuel capacity which is because of "lower size"...!
Money is the only problem We have otherwise there is no comparison at all between the two aircrafts.

Oh bhai jaan bottom line is, Its not for sale!
Jst like the F-22. why do you think the chinese came up with J-31 in the first place?
That's for export. J-20 is not for sale.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

why we are getting fc-1
paf need to consider this
beast
View attachment 154094

we must consider F-22 with TOT and J-20 and PAKFA with TOT and presidency of Uganda

 

[Syed Hussain]

CAC has an export version of 5th gen solution and did not get money support from AVIC as FC-31
View attachment 155361

length：15.58m, wingspan: 9m, empty load 9 ton, engine is one WS-15
Since many Pakistan officers and engineers are working in CAC, I think they know about it but 。。。no money you can do nothing

It's a fan made animation.

why does pakistan always opt for the option the chinese have rejected. for example the JF-17 is a design the Chinese aren't interested in, pakistan picks it up and takes it same with other projects like Type-98 tank, mbt-3000, F-22 frigates and now the J-31. I think the J-10 has a way better design concept then the J-31, The J-31 seems more like a failed Chinese experiment.

Partially, I would agree with you. Pakistan always goes for "cheap price tag" & that's why JF-17, MBT-2000, F-22 frigates, were chosen instead of J-10, Type-99mbt, & type-54 frigates...!
Budget is indeed a problem but you can think in a different way also,,,for example if you decide to go for J-10b instead of FC-1,(former being double the price of the later) than you should also think of the plus point that 100 J-10's will do the job better than 150 FC-1's...!

 

[Syed Hussain]

Oh bhai jaan bottom line is, Its not for sale!
Jst like the F-22. why do you think the chinese came up with J-31 in the first place?
That's for export. J-20 is not for sale.

I can't go in detail, only have a look at this "chwl" of former Defense Minister of Pakistan
China agree to give J-20/FC-20 5th Generation Stealth Fighter to Pakistan" Ahmad Mukhtar Pakistani Defence Minister Said after returning from China. - Google Search

 

[Max Pain]

typical village mentality exists on this forum, whenever a genuine criticism is aimed against the pakistan armed forces, everyone assumes that person is an indian, first of all get you're head out of your *** and go and get a proper education you retard

sometimes stupidity is best replied with sarcasm but lemme give you the answer, China and Pakistan are two different countries and their armed forces have different needs, why did China didnt Induct JF-17 simply because the plane is wayy to small and does not possess the range to cover the vast terrain of China, however the scenario is totally different when it comes to Pakistan, we have a history of flying aircrafts of such class e.g F-16, they handsomely fullfill our need of replacing the old mirages and F-7's.
if you really think JF-17 is rejected then tell me why are Chinese developing WS-10A solely for JF-17? Engine tech is a massive investment so they have better plans in mind, Since Pakistan enjoys great relations with china, the projects you mentioned are more specifically designed to fullfill Pakistan's needs, our foes are different.we have our own way to tackle threats and they have their own.
hope I answered your question.

 

[aliaselin]

It's a fan made animation.

Yes, but based on information revealed by internals

 

[Mav3rick]

J31 is advance but it is a 4th Generation fighter where as J/F35 to whom which the people compare with is a 5th Generation fighter. J31 uses the same engine RD93 which is the same one which JF17 is using, but the good news is China is working on an improved variant named WS-13A with 100KN of thrust for J-31 & there are rumors that WS-13A will also be used by JF17.

So though the news is official which I am very happy to hear but it will take time for J31 to develop completely.

Mean while PAF needs to work on replacing dead mirages completely with J10B, with this move PAF will get a modern fighter jet.

Although someone has already pointed it out earlier, let me rephrase, The Chinese generation of fighter jets is not the same as the western generation. The Chinese consider the F-22, F-35, J-20, J-31, PAK-FA, FGFA etc. to be the 4th generation of Jets while they consider the JF-17, the SU-30MKI, the Rafael, Mig-29SMT, Typhoon, F-15SE etc., to be the third generation (with a '+' on case basis).

Furthermore, the single most important technology for the latest gen of fighters, 5th for the west and 4th for the Chinese, is all aspect stealth which the J-20 and J-31 provide. Also note that the J-31, although said to be flying with the same engine as JF-17, still engages technology that minimizes its exposure and that it will eventually be replaced with a true 5th gen engine, Chinese or otherwise.

 

[Viper0011.]

TVC would add some weight to the F-35. Wouldn't that be countered by increased thrust planned for later models of the F135.
For starters, witness the B model nozzle assembly. Consider. A and C models are single engine/single nozzle aircraft restricted to ceilings well below F-22, and high altitude is where TVC can pay off. TVC on all models F-35 would only impose penalties. Granted, it does sound like a fine idea for C model takeoffs until you consider "roll rate" and rapid loss of lift given single engine and nozzie. 0.02

Actually, you got it partly right but majority of your understanding is incorrect. The JSF (Naval and the Marine versions) should have TVC as they will use STOVL during deployment and carrier based operations. However, the same TVC on a single engine is a performance kill.
Unlike the Raptor or the PakFa or the SU-35/30, etc, recovery on a single engine is difficult at an optimum level in an intense maneuverable situation like getting rid of a BVR lock or even warhead explosion avoidance.

Add a full combat load to it, defying gravity, free-fall and then vertical spin stabilization and control become extremely critical. The flight computer is too busy using unstable air-designs to recover from an intense anti-gravity scenario and its using many millions of calculations and jet's airframe and functions for stability.

You may beat a missile with an upside down U or a Cobra, etc, but you'll be a sitting duck for a WVR missile or guns following that maneuver. High risk of losing a plane in that scenario and hard recovery post stall. Now apply the concept to heavies, the recovery is much instantaneous in the Raptor's case (or in the Pak-Fa or SU-30/35, etc's case).

 

[Mav3rick]

J-31 stealth jet gets bad reviews after Zhuhai Airshow flight｜Politics｜News｜WantChinaTimes.com
This is a chinease report

Its a honest assessment of the J31

poor DATED engine that smokes (all other fifth gen fighters will have TVC engines)

Considered to be too heavy to be a agile dog fighter. A PAK FA or RAPTOR would run circles round it.

PLAAF will not be buying this plane only the J20 WHICH HOUSES all their cutting edge technology

J31 will be acquired by poor countries in chinease sphere of influence ie Pakistan Bangladesh North Korea etc.

READ THE ARTICLE dont kill the messenger.

MY Conclusion

China has made incredible strides with it Fighter technology

China still lacks in key areas over the WEST ie Engine tech sensor fusion and accuracy of weapons

J31 will do well to beat off a meteore equipped aeasa radar rafale/typhoon

WE SHALL SEE HOW IT DEVELOPES OVER NEXT TEN YEARS.

Whomever believes that PLAF/PLAAF/PLAN will not employ J-31 are in extreme ignorance. Just as the F-35 becomes the workhorse of the US forces so too will the J-31, eventually, become the workhorse of Chinese forces with the J-20 serving the same purpose for the Chinese that the F-22 does for the Americans!

 

[Viper0011.]

TVC makes sense for an aircraft the size of F-22, J-20 and T-50 but for F-35 and FC-31, i don't see its merits. Personally i would want to see full spectrum sensor fusion and supercruise in FC-31 if China can bring in a 100kn engine.

You are right. TVC makes sense on the heavies. I've given a very detailed explanation to this topic below. But FC-31 should have the TVC as its considered a Medium to Heavy jet with twin turbines. Single engine tvc (JSF for example) doesn't make sense as there is not a real scenario. The recovery on a single engine from a tvc related maneuver is very complex and it takes time. While the plane may be a sitting duck for the second missile or guns for a good few seconds. JSF for the Marines and for the Navy would have tvc as its going to use STOVL and will use aircraft carrier based platforms.

Twin engines recover almost instantaneously, see the Raptor's recovery below:

 

[Mav3rick]

we must consider F-22 with TOT and J-20 and PAKFA with TOT and presidency of Uganda

If only you had thrown in the CM'ship of Maharashtra, I would have supported you.