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SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

Airshow China 2014: Pakistan in talks to buy '30-40 FC-31s'
Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad - IHS Jane's Defence Industry
12 November 2014


The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is in talks with China to buy 30 to 40 of the Shenyang FC-31 twin-engined stealth fighter displayed at Airshow China 2014 in Zhuhai, a senior Pakistani government official has revealed to IHS Jane's .

"The discussions are beyond initial inquiries and they fit into the pattern of Pakistan being the first export customer of Chinese [military] hardware," said the official.

The FC-31 was unveiled as an export model at Zhuhai, although a prototype with the J-31 designation has been flying at a Shenyang Aircraft Corporation facility since 2012.

In 2007 then air chief marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, who at the time was PAF chief of staff, told IHS Jane's that Islamabad was considering the purchase of up to two squadrons or 30 to 40 of Chengdu J-10 fighters.

(134 of 373 words)

@TheOccupiedKashmir @fatman17 Can you get full access to article ?
The article makes sense since the J-10s were skipped, and one of the reasons is most probably the little time frame that Pakistan had to wait to induct a much more potent platform, the second reason being the platform is a 5th generation one, the third reason is about the common engine with the JF-17 platform.
 
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You are right, and induction should start as soon as the J-31 is available, since it is quite a potent fighter even if in its first version or block (not talking about the prototype here, but the first version that will be inducted) it should mature in time, so there is no need to wait for that to happen, the F-35 is still undergoing tests, and is not that mature either, but it is being inducted in many countries.
That is the way it works in real life, upgrades and improvements will follow suite for the rest of the plane life.
I do think that the J-31 will follow approximatively the same path of induction in PAF as the JF-17. Start in 2018 with a 30 to 40 block 1, 30 to 40 block 2 and a block 3 to make it around 100 to120 5th generation fighter planes by 2025.
2018 is about the same time that JF-17 block 3 will be finalized and 150 planes would be inducted. Blocks 4 and 5, would most probably be skipped to start production of the J-31.
 
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I've always been a J-31 believer. If Pakistan is seriously interested in upgrading her force, she should decide to skip out on the middle man (J-10B) and go straight for J-31. You get a true fifth generation design (AESA radar, EODAS, etc.) using the same engines as the JF-17.
 
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I've always been a J-31 believer. If Pakistan is seriously interested in upgrading her force, she should decide to skip out on the middle man (J-10B) and go straight for J-31. You get a true fifth generation design (AESA radar, EODAS, etc.) using the same engines as the JF-17.

But the J-21 will use NEW advanced medium thrust engines,not the stop-gap Russian engines currently in 31001。:coffee:
 
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I actually like China's approach toward indigenous weapons platform development. It's very practical and goes a step beyond reverse engineering.

I'm glad the Chinese used the air frame designs of Su-27s for their J-11B, Su-33 for J-15 and Su-30 for J-16s. What's the point of wasting resources (both time and money) to create a completely new 4th generation aircraft at this point in time? 5th generation aircrafts are right around the corner, so why spend more $$ and more time to create yet another 4th generation aircraft when those resources can be allocated toward the 5th generation projects such as J-20 and J-31?

For J-11, J-15 and J-16 China had the following 2 options:

Option 1: Design a completely new 4th generation aircraft.
Pro: So that internet fan boys can have something to brag about

Con: Cost several billion $$ more
Con: Take 4-5 years longer. what can you do to fulfill the current requirements? Import more aircrafts which again cost more $$. So the same amount of $$ allocated will equal far fewer aircrafts.
Con: By the time the new design is finished, J-20 or J-31 is probably approaching production.... so what's the point of the new design?

Option 2: Base the air frame design on the current flankers and make improvements (using composite in the air frame, better radar, more powerful engine etc)
Pro: Get the planes faster and for a cheaper price
Pro: More investments for the domestic arms industry and more resources available for 5th generation R&D.
Pro: Just look at the end results. J-11B is much better than Su-27, J-15 is much better than the basic Su-33 and J-16 is arguably more advanced than any other Su-30 variants out there (Su-30MKI included.)

Con: None, since due to the arms embargo European & American companies can't sell weapons to China anyways and the Russian companies are so desperate to sell this don't even matter.



Intellectual property rights protection is completely irrelevant when in the realms of national defense. It's the job of any intelligence agency in every country to try to "steal" information and technology.
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as i said.. china is doing good... but base of that is reverse enineering...
if IPR is irrerlevant for china for national def .. on other side IPR of Al31 or su35 is one of most imp secrets of national secuirty of Russia ...
you cant play with others national secuirty....
These Su design and related sub system info is base of defence strategy of concern nation,,
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Strategy...
China ... opemy use reverse engineinrg .. suported hugly by govt and political envi
india....more in to TOT .not much enthusiam till now by govt..
what china will have is inedegenis product and trained HR
what india will ahve is forign -indian mix of product with trained HR .... with some nastry $ payments
india just opned defece to private sector ...now its game on.. for india... but big leap to match china
 
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^^^ Dear Indian, badmouthing about China and Chinese is banned on a Pakistani Discussion Forum.

China reverse engineering is actually a prefered technology qimick around the world, to stay up-to-date. Tell me which country does not do it, in West.



Pakistani J-31 Stealth with Manufacturing ability is the best thing that will happen to Pakistan to stay updated with Fifth Generation Technology and so much similarity with its JF17s Thunder Programme.
 
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The whole F-16 program costed Pakistan more than $ 5.5 billion. It was vital and very important, this fact being known to Washington and allies, they have put strings attached to that deal...up till now!!!
I would say that for the same amount, Pakistan will get around 100 J-31s, with ToT and...with no strings attached.
 
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The whole F-16 program costed Pakistan more than $ 5.5 billion. It was vital and very important, this fact being known to Washington and allies, they have put strings attached to that deal...up till now!!!
I would say that for the same amount, Pakistan will get around 100 J-31s, with ToT and...with no strings attached.


Brother, greatest worry everyone is asking is that only one Prototype of J-31 is seen yet, since OCT 2012. Second is RD-93,J-31 need new upgraded engines with strong power, since when more weapons are installed it will become more heavier and need more power.

J31 with RD-93M upgraded ones with better power, and less smoke should be on prototype 2.
 
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^^^ Dear Indian, badmouthing about China and Chinese is banned on a Pakistani Discussion Forum.

China reverse engineering is actually a prefered technology qimick around the world, to stay up-to-date. Tell me which country does not do it, in West.



Pakistani J-31 Stealth with Manufacturing ability is the best thing that will happen to Pakistan to stay updated with Fifth Generation Technology and so much similarity with its JF17s Thunder Programme.
Reverse engineering is an engineering field of its own, I might add that it is the most difficult of all engineering fields. since, in any field of engineering one has to master that field first, then try that engineering on a reverse gear.
I know what it means in real life engineering, but the best example I have found to describe it is in Kung Fu (or any other martial art where there are Kata (forms)), when one masters a complicated form (Kata) and has to master it in reverse too, which constitutes the acme of skill.
 
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Brother, greatest worry everyone is asking is that only one Prototype of J-31 is seen yet, since OCT 2012.

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That is like the JF-17 block 2, all we all have heard was 2 in production, and all of a sudden there are going to be 40 or 50 unveiled in December this year!!!
 
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@he-man

IMO, If the J-31 is a true 5th generation fighter, it will have at least an RCS 0.01 (still pessimistic), if not 0.005 like the F-35, or even better due to its sleek design.

F-35 / JSF 0.005
F-117 0.003
F-22 0.0001
B-2 0.0001


The radar cross section (RCS) of a target is defined as the effective area intercepting an amount of incident power which, when scattered isotropically, produces a level of reflected power at the radar equal to that from the target. RCS calculations require broad and extensive technical knowledge, thus many scientists and scholars find the subject challenging and intellectually motivating. This is a very complex field that defies simple explanation, and any short treatment is only a very rough approximation.
The units of radar cross section are square meters; however, the radar cross section is NOT the same as the area of the target. Because of the wide range of amplitudes typically encountered on a target, RCS is frequently expressed in dBsm, or decibels relative to one square meter. The RCS is the projected area of a metal sphere that is large compared with the wavelength and that, if substituted for the object, would scatter identically the same power back to the radar. However, the RCS of all but the simplest scatterers fluctuates greatly with the orientation of the object, so the notion of an equivalent sphere is not very useful.



Different structures will exhibit different RCS dependence on frequency than a sphere. However, three frequency regimes are identifiable for most structures. In the Rayleigh region at low frequencies, target dimensions are much less than the radar wavelength. In this region RCS is proportional with the fourth power of the frequency. In the Resonance or Mie Region at medium frequencies, target dimensions and the radar wavelength are in the same order. The RCS oscillates in the resonance region. In the Optical Region of high frequencies, target dimensions are very large compared to the radar wavelength. In this region RCS is roughly the same size as the real area of target. The RCS behaves more simply in the high-frequency region. In this region, the RCS of a sphere is constant.

In general, codes based on the methods-of-moments (MOM) solution to the electrical field integral equation (EFIE) are used to calculate scattering in the Rayleigh and resonance regions. Codes based on physical optics (PO) and the physical theory of diffraction (PTD) are used in the optical or high-frequency region. The target's electrical size (which is proportional to frequency and inversely proportional to the radar wavelength) that determines the appropriate algorithm to calculate the scattering. When the target length is less than 5 to 10 wavelengths, the EFIE-MOM algorithm is used. Alternatively, if the target wavelength is above 5 to 10 wavelengths, the PO-PTD algorithm is used.

The RCS of a stealth aircraft is typically multiple orders of magnitude lower than a conventional plane and is often comparable to that of a small bird or large insect. "From the front, the F/A-22's signature is -40dBm2 (the size of a marble) while the F-35's is -30 dBm2 (the size of a golf ball). The F-35 is said to have a small area of vulnerability from the rear because engineers reduced cost by not designing a radar blocker for the engine exhaust." [Aviation Week & Space Technology; 11/14/2005, page 27] The F-35 stealthiness is a bit better than the B-2 bomber, which, in turn, was twice as good as that on the even older F-117. B-2 stealth bomber has a very small cross section. The RCS of a B-26 bomber exceeds 35 dBm2 (3100m2 ) from certain angles. In contrast, the RCS of the B-2 stealth bomber is widely reported to be about -40dBm2 .

A conventional fighter aircraft such as an F-4 has an RCS of about six square meters (m2), and the much larger but low-observable B-2 bomber, which incorporates advanced stealth technologies into its design, by some accounts has an RCS of approximately 0.75 m2 [this is four orders of magintude greater than the widely reported -40dBm2 ]. Some reports give the B-2 a head-on radar cross section no larger than a bird, 0.01 m2 or -20dBm2. A typical cruise missile with UAV-like characteristics has an RCS in the range of 1 m2; the Tomahawk ALCM, designed in the 1970s and utilizing the fairly simple low-observable technologies then available, has an RCS of less than 0.05 m2.

The impact of lowered observability can be dramatic because it reduces the maximum detection range from missile defenses, resulting in minimal time for intercept. The US airborne warning and control system (AWACS) radar system was designed to detect aircraft with an RCS of 7 m2 at a range of at least 370 km and typical nonstealthy cruise missiles at a range of at least 227 km; stealthy cruise missiles, however, could approach air defenses to within 108 km before being detected. If such missiles traveled at a speed of 805 km per hour (500 miles per hour), air defenses would have only eight minutes to engage and destroy the stealthy missile and 17 minutes for the nonstealthy missile. Furthermore, a low-observable LACM can be difficult to engage and destroy, even if detected. Cruise missiles with an RCS of 0.1 m2 or smaller are difficult for surface-to-air missile (SAM) fire-control radars to track. Consequently, even if a SAM battery detects the missile, it may not acquire a sufficient lock on the target to complete the intercept.

Radar scattering from any realistic target is a function of the body's material properties as well as its geometry. Once the specular reflections have been eliminated by radar absorbing materials, only nonspecular or diffractive sources are left. Non-specular scatterers are edges, creeping waves, and traveling waves. They often dominate backscattering patterns of realistic targets in the aspect ranges of most interest. The traveling wave is a high frequency phenomenon. Surface traveling waves are launched for horizontal polarization and grazing angles of incidence on targets with longs mooth surfaces. There is little attenuation from the flat smooth surface, so the wave builds up as it travels along the target. Upon reaching a surface discontinuity, for example an edge, the traveling wave is scattered and part of it propagates back toward the radar. The sum of the traveling waves propagating from the far end of the target toward the near end is the dominant source to the target radar cross section.

The radar cross section (RCS) of a target not only depends on the physical shape and its composite materials, but also on its subcomponents such as antennas and other sensors. These components on the platforms may be designed to meet low RCS requirements as well as their sensor system requirements. In some cases, the onboard sensors can be the predominant factor in determining a platform's total RCS. A typical example is a reciprocal high gain antenna on a low RCS platform. If the antenna beam is pointed toward the radarand the radar frequency is in the antenna operating band, theantenna scattering can be signi?cant.

The traditional measure of an object's scattering behavior is the RCS pattern which plots the scattered field magnitude as a function of aspect angle for a particular frequency and polarization. Although suitable to calculate the power received by a radar operating with those particular parameters, the RCS pattern is an incomplete descriptor of the object's scattering behavior. While the RCS pattern indicates the effect of the scattering mechanism, it does not reveal the physical processes which cause the observed effect. In contrast, imaging techniques, which exploit frequency and angle diversity to spatially resolve the reflectivity distribution of complex objects, allow the association of physical features with scattering mechanisms. These processes, therefore, indicate the causal components of the overall signature level observed in RCS patterns.


It uses useless rd-93 engine.
No one knows what radar it uses.
What irst it uses?
What type of maws it has?

Have u seen the radar complex of pakfa??
It has 270 degrees coverage with 2300 t/r elements for russian version with l band iff which is first in a fighter aircraft.

Indian version will have 360 degrees aesa coverage.
 
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Just wondering how ***** will be set on fire if Pakistan acquires a 5th Gen Fighter ahead of India getting her hands on either PAK-FA or Rafale. I mean that would put all IAF forward bases at the mercy of PAF and thereby nullify any single advantage that any Indian Jet may have over PAF.
 
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The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is in talks with China to buy 30 to 40 of the Shenyang FC-31 twin-engined stealth fighter displayed at Airshow China 2014 in Zhuhai, a senior Pakistani government official has revealed to IHS Jane's .

"The discussions are beyond initial inquiries and they fit into the pattern of Pakistan being the first export customer of Chinese [military] hardware," said the official.

The FC-31 was unveiled as an export model at Zhuhai, although a prototype with the J-31 designation has been flying at a Shenyang Aircraft Corporation facility since 2012.

In 2007 then air chief marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, who at the time was PAF chief of staff, told IHS Jane's that Islamabad was considering the purchase of up to two squadrons or 30 to 40 of Chengdu J-10 fighters.

Airshow China 2014: Pakistan in talks to buy '30-40 FC-31s' - IHS Jane's 360
 
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its a med to long term prospect - 2018-2020. FC-31 would need a lot of development and evaluation with PAF wanting many modifications and western systems.
its a good start
 
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