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Saab pitches for joint development of Sea Gripen fighter jets

Excellent point sir, a lengthy reply.. but pls bear with me.. this could turn out to be a good discussion..

Now for all points
Point 1: Light category IAF wants an Indian bird which is cheap to the max o $30-35Mn per bird so that in Medium and Heavy category it can go for foreign birds which are more costly in acquisition as well as in operations..LCA whose role is clearly defined implies regular more sorties and less operational cost or life time cost. Thus, IAF is strategically clear about Light category. Its issue is non performance and delay by HAL.
If say IAF does acquire a foreign asset for light category, its budgetary constraints will have a deeper impact on medium and heavy category. Secondly, cost of operations will cripple airtime per year down from avg 250 hours a year to more of 150-180 hours a year to ensure non ballooning of operational costs. This significantly downs our pilot preparedness program and strategy evolutions. Lastly, Gripen being a new setup indicates a capex cost for base setup and maintenance depot setup.. all indicates financial mess..

2. Partially correct. heart is Ge 404 fam after all. But Gripen has lot more of integration than LCA which has definitely Indian parts too. Its sanction proof theory is correct but localisation of all Gripen components, systems, sub systems to OEM (which are mostly foreign) setting up shops in India will be a long process implying cost reductions would take time and will require a big order of at least 100-150 birds for economies of scale.(Remember USA folks said 200 F18s for Indian production). Biggest difference is commonality part.. Israeli radar Elta 2052 AESA Radar and Derby Python combination may need a much deeper change in Gripen whose arms are mostly western. The Indian LGBs also will need newer coding.. All this takes time and importantly India will have to pay money for "modifications and customization" and Israel has to agree with IAI for such integration..Trainer version Like LCA LIFT if anyis also going to be additional burden on us.

3 and 4
Its apparently clear that Saab has talked about everything right from consulting role, to helping LCA IAF version but in return it always wants orders and believes Gripen NG fits Indian's needs and now Sea Gripen fits Naval needs. But then how come consulting and making a product which is direct competitor to your own product helps you as a business group.

LCA may be around 35-40% of the cost of Gripen so technically once LCA is fully flying its export potential as well as domestic market competition within India directly kills the Gripen. Unless, Gripen takes 15 years to expertly "consult" in LCA project and in that time frame ensures all its jets are inducted....

Its offering for IAF version, Naval version, TOT at a cost of investment, etc etc are all marketing terms to make it sound attractive.. But in clear hindsight, they are just trying to play with fears of MOD as HAL LCA are running a bit late and hence sense a opportunity to sell a product which kills the whole LCA program a slow silent poisoned death.

Mark 1A is coming with 120 jets total... So a similar number effectively kills Mark2 product as a whole. Similarly Sea Gripen 50-60 odd will kill NLCA similar size numbers. As requirements are met then why the new order. And what about the infused costs by IAF and IN till today or MOD sanctioned budget till date for these products.

5. Point 5
Yes Sir, you are correct about Fadnavis. A local newspaper said Fadnavis (backed by a pune based industrial group) informed PM NaMo about Saab Gripen proposal and he requested NaMo to accord it a status under MII. Now what was in it for Fadnavis? Saab said the whole plant and setup will come in Maharastra.
Fadnavis even went to the extent of meeting DM MP and impressing that this "light fighter" would suit India's need.

Link: Make in India: Maharashtra Chief Minister Devendra Fadnavis in talks with Swedish defence company Saab Group to set up unit in state - timesofindia-economictimes
Excerpts:

At a time when Prime Minister Narendra Modi is busy drumming up support for his high-decibel Make In India campaign, Maharashtra chief minister Devendra Fadnavis has quietly initiated talks with Swedish defence company Saab Group to set up a production unit in his state.

Just back from the Hanover Fair 2015, where he had gone to promote Maharashtra, Fadnavis spoke exclusively to ET on Thursday, saying that his government has begun a dialogue with Sweden's Saab Group to team up with Pune-based Bharat Forge for setting up a defence production unit in Maharashtra soon.


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Fadnavis said Saab expressed interest in setting up a manufacturing base in Maharashtra and even presented a business plan with transfer of technology and a proposal to collaborate with Indian companies if land and power are assured to them. Saab Group is a Swedish aerospace and defence company specialising in radar and avionics. Fadnavis held a series of meetings with Swedish defence, aerospace, radar and avionics experts, and showcased the obvious advantages of Maharashtra — Air Force maintenance command in Nagpur and Indian aeronautic manufacturing unit in Nashik. The Maharashtra CM said his aim was to market Maharashtra as the largest base for the German engineering industry


But the result was not in expected lines. Reason being MII is suppose to flow via PMO & MOD Central government route not via State Government being the lead marketer and Central government being the implementer.. In fact its the other way around.

@dadeechi Excellent devils advocate.. i was looking to find someone who says in favour of Saab Gripen and hypothetically discusses the merits of the product for India..

@Abingdonboy @FrenchPilot @anant_s
Sirs, pls correct me if i am wrong in my writing..

I greatly admire the passion with which you write.

We still need to remember that there is a strong IAF lobby against LCA


It is IAF+Political+Industry lobby vs. HAL+DRDO+ADA+ Common People

What Grippen would propose is to repace the LCA airframe with Tejas airframe with MKIsed components. Note the following stance from AF in the recent article. I understand that Grippen needs to be redesigned but so does Tejas MK2

Retired Air Marshal Subhash Bhojwani said that while the AESA radar and air-to-air refueling capability would compensate for most of the LCA's operational deficiencies, "with regard to day-to-day line maintenance I understand Tejas is still an engineer's nightmare.
"I have yet to see any HAL aircraft where the canopy of one aircraft fits another without a lot of adjustments, the same for any other airframe component. Each aircraft seems to be ever so slightly different; this is a major shortcoming. US- and French-origin aircraft are designed from drawing board onwards to be easy to repair and parts are freely swappable. If HAL has made Tejas more maintenance-friendly than its predecessor products, then my stated opinion would need to undergo modification," Bhojwani said.


India To Boost LCA Order; AF Questions Its Capabilities


You do not want to give a full bottle of poison lest the person dies of it. It needs to be given in small doses so that the body can absorb and move to the next stage.

This constant news in small doses is just that.
 
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Why not ?
But only if Sweden agrees to buy a 45k tonne aircraft carrier from India with full ToT for $ 5 Billion.
:D
 
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IN will certainly consider Rafale M :smitten: for INS Vishal. In future, there is a great posdibility of LCA N & Rafale M serving together for IN. :cheers:

@FrenchPilot

We already offered India a special naval version of typhoon long ago, but India rejected it for Mig 29k. So I don't think India will be going for anything other than this for now.Since India was(don't know if they are still in service today) operating our sea harriers on its first carrier INS viraat for a longggg time now and thus it would have made more sense for it to continue with a British platform.


David Cameron supports 'Make in India'; offers help to make fighter jets - The Economic Times

India given choice to pioneer naval Typhoon jet | Zee News
 
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To be frank, the Navy will prefer something which Airforce ALREADY HAS unless their is no other option

This ensures lower maintainence cost and training cost for the navy
It's cheaper to train for and maintain 110 Mig29 than 40+ grippen
 
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We already offered India a special naval version of typhoon long ago, but India rejected it for Mig 29k. So I don't think India will be going for anything other than this for now.Since India was(don't know if they are still in service today) operating our sea harriers on its first carrier INS viraat for a longggg time now and thus it would have made more sense for it to continue with a British platform.


David Cameron supports 'Make in India'; offers help to make fighter jets - The Economic Times

India given choice to pioneer naval Typhoon jet | Zee News
India do have couple of Sea Harrier, but they are not on board carrier, rather offshore bases, and now have been upgraded with israeli EL/M-2032 Radar, and derby/python weapon.

There was no point of buying typhoon naval for the Russian carrier, and since India already have Mig29 which now have been upgraded to Mig 29UPG of SMT standards, the commonality dictates MIG29k.

I greatly admire the passion with which you write.

We still need to remember that there is a strong IAF lobby against LCA


It is IAF+Political+Industry lobby vs. HAL+DRDO+ADA+ Common People

What Grippen would propose is to repace the LCA airframe with Tejas airframe with MKIsed components. Note the following stance from AF in the recent article. I understand that Grippen needs to be redesigned but so does Tejas MK2

Retired Air Marshal Subhash Bhojwani said that while the AESA radar and air-to-air refueling capability would compensate for most of the LCA's operational deficiencies, "with regard to day-to-day line maintenance I understand Tejas is still an engineer's nightmare.
"I have yet to see any HAL aircraft where the canopy of one aircraft fits another without a lot of adjustments, the same for any other airframe component. Each aircraft seems to be ever so slightly different; this is a major shortcoming. US- and French-origin aircraft are designed from drawing board onwards to be easy to repair and parts are freely swappable. If HAL has made Tejas more maintenance-friendly than its predecessor products, then my stated opinion would need to undergo modification," Bhojwani said.


India To Boost LCA Order; AF Questions Its Capabilities


You do not want to give a full bottle of poison lest the person dies of it. It needs to be given in small doses so that the body can absorb and move to the next stage.

This constant news in small doses is just that.

And I lack you passion to look at the news with different angle.

For LCA, the one who can really help is not the SAAB or the GE, rather the Dassault, who have reviewed the LCA design from the start. The requirement for the easily maintainability, due to modular construction and faster turn out and quick engine replacement was asked by IAF only in year 2009. These all will be addressed in next avataar LCA mk2, confirmed by the ADA officials many times and earlier on ADA hadn't designed LCA for those.

What I am making out from the series of SAAB attempt, is that they are really feeling the heat of the LCA Tejas, because once LCA Tejas MK2 will be out it will a good competitive options against Swedish Grippen with Indian, Russian, French, Israeli Radars and Weapons option with the trainer and Naval variant available, with the backing of the IAF induction which will be the boast.

The cost factors would also be their for the LCA. Problem with SAAB is that Grippen might be the last of its fighter plane, because the world is now started looking at the 5th Gen aerial warfare, and SAAB don't have the money and resource to starts the program of its own. They are looking to kill the propable competitors MK2 in its early stage, and join AMCA and get the share of the profits. Reason look at the international market who are the big market US -- have its own, Russia and China -- Nochance, Europe already have US and european EF2000 and raffale, so what is left is the countries with small budget and small airforce.

However SAAB can get orders for its sensors like MAWS, RWS, LWS which might be chosen for our helli fleet like LCH, LAH, Rudra. Other than that they can try their luck.
 
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We already offered India a special naval version of typhoon long ago, but India rejected it for Mig 29k. So I don't think India will be going for anything other than this for now.Since India was(don't know if they are still in service today) operating our sea harriers on its first carrier INS viraat for a longggg time now and thus it would have made more sense for it to continue with a British platform.


David Cameron supports 'Make in India'; offers help to make fighter jets - The Economic Times

India given choice to pioneer naval Typhoon jet | Zee News

The Sea Harriers are still operational with IN, but on the verge of being de-commissioned. That will happen soon enough considering that INS VIRAAT is also due to pay-off.

After that, it is unlikely that the IN is considering any British origin aircraft; though the Goshawk may make it into IN service as a Carrier-based aircraft for rookies. But wait a minute, the Goshawk is an American version of the Hawk trainer that the IAF flies now. The IN does not consider it sensible to consider any British aircraft for now.
 
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We should not be surprised to see the Rafale M with IN going forward. Once the design of the CATOBAR Carrier(s) are frozen, a mix of Rafale Ms and N-LCAs alongside Hawkyes will make up their air-wings. By that time, the third tranche of Rafales will have entered IAF service.

I hope so mate, I have been waiting fot Rafale's induction to IAF & IN from a long while back.
 
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The Sea Harriers are still operational with IN, but on the verge of being de-commissioned. That will happen soon enough considering that INS VIRAAT is also due to pay-off.

After that, it is unlikely that the IN is considering any British origin aircraft; though the Goshawk may make it into IN service as a Carrier-based aircraft for rookies. But wait a minute, the Goshawk is an American version of the Hawk trainer that the IAF flies now. The IN does not consider it sensible to consider any British aircraft for now.


Sir, can we not get British "aid" and then buy French, American, Russian, Israeli, Japanese stuff instead of British :undecided::undecided::undecided:

You know we must help out British folks to have at least one political issue to "question the need of aid" for India to buy all foreign items from various countries except British..:);):P
 
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IN does not consider it sensible to consider any British aircraft for now.
my friend its good that u speak as for ur country which has freedom and provides u the dignity & honour to speak but still u should keep in mind that never to speak in such harsh way to anyone not even if we share a history of bloodshed with them don't loose ur temper for such small think what i find in ur way of expressing ur thoughts :-):disagree:

India, UK Announce Deals Worth 9 Billion Pounds
 
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my friend its good that u speak as for ur country which has freedom and provides u the dignity & honour to speak but still u should keep in mind that never to speak in such harsh way to anyone not even if we share a history of bloodshed with them don't loose ur temper for such small think what i find in ur way of expressing ur thoughts :-):disagree:

India, UK Announce Deals Worth 9 Billion Pounds

Aakhir tum kya kehnaa chahtey ho?
 
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And you joined this forum to come up with this.......... !!!!
yess sir i joined this forum to come up with this as i find u were you knowingly making some new's an issue to querl
for i don't care if i don't have enough privileges like u or some one else to speak but i got my point to stand on
. But wait a minute, the Goshawk is an American version of the Hawk trainer that the IAF flies now. The IN does not consider it sensible to consider any British aircraft for now.
did u see it look's as if u were very aggressive
at the time of typing this.
if u think i am against ur opinion i am extremely sorry for that :(
 
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1) If given an option, IAF would prefer Grippen over LCA. Currently IAF's focus has been on pushing RAFALEs. Once RAFALEs deal is out of the way their attention would move to Gripen
If given an option ... is the lone parameter that makes this work. Rafale + LCA seem to be Dehli's option for now.
Yes, Gripen is better than Tejas, no doubt, but the LCA is enough to replace MiG sqds with Raf/MKI tiers above it
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2) SAAB being just an integrator with no sanction proof cannot be an argument as LCA is also in similar state with no indigenous engine. Also, BJP is West leaning. So there is no worry of sanctions as long as they are in power.
Well, alliances and thus promises /sanctions are as variable as political power continuity is what I think you meant?
That's undeniable! Which should push in favour of the most controllable product, with local patents and so on? LCA


3) After pitching for AF version, SAAB is now pitching for Naval version to ensure that it can provide the same variety as LCA
Yes, after being the only ones to bypass the all testing done in India rule for the MMRCA trials because their solution
was too fragile for export yet, so far from combat ready, they are now pushing to sell you a plane that may never exist.
You didn't go for their gnome, they're offering Nessie? How mythical can you get?

Small advert for my baby : Gripen may go to sea, Typhoon will get an AESA, F-18 line could close dep. on F-35 ...
The only plane who's timeline is all in the present is the one GoI selected! :yu:

4) LCA Naval, MK1A and MK II are still years away from induction. This is the right time for making the push to replace LCA with Gripen. LCA Mk1 would be inducted in nominal numbers, if at all it attains FOC.
Look :
Gripen Naval, even the NG are still years away from induction. This is the right time for making the push to replace Gripen with LCA. Sea Gripen would be inducted in nominal numbers, if at all it attains FOC.
Uncanny, right?

5) There is strong industry and political lobby behind this proposal
Of course and none whatsoever for the Tejas, while we're at it?
Someone take those blimey blinders off the poor chap before he hurts himself!
There, fixed that for you ...

There is one truth shining through that last part aside from the overall theme of anti-LCA choices due to position.
If there is another national design launched ( be it AMCA or a second LCA iteration ), the private sector should
be allowed in. The reasons favouring this are just too numerous to list. I mean, SAAB are not an NGO, are they?

Great day all, Tay.
 
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