S-300 vs Agile Fighter Jets?

[dbc]

I think that would apply to the MKI too.

ok, not sure why you're telling me that?

 

[Kloitra]

And this would be why, exactly? And what are you including in 'air defence'?? And in what role are you putting MKI here?

That's just sarcasm at Indians!

 

[Penguin]

ok, not sure why you're telling me that?

Not directed at you.

 

[Penguin]

By mki I meant the su-30mki the plane and its indian Claims, they have a MKI-Growler which Jams Everyknown Radar and Sam and Missile system in earth

so MKI is Turly unbeatable Unless it isfighting another mki, which is non existant in any nation the closest thing is Malaysian mkm Which is very inferior the the indian MKI

"thank you come again"

Are you referring to onboard electronic countermeasures? Or something else?

Sukhoi Su-30MKI has electronic counter-measure systems. The RWR system is of Indian design, developed by India's DRDO, called Tarang, (Wave in English). It has direction finding capability and is known to have a programmable threat library. The RWR is derived from work done on an earlier system for India's MiG-23BNs known as the Tranquil, which is now superseded by the more advanced Tarang series. Elta EL/M-8222 a self-protection jammer developed by Israel Aircraft Industries is the MKI's standard EW pod, which the Israeli Air Force uses on its F-15s. The ELTA El/M-8222 Self Protection Pod is a power-managed jammer, air-cooled system with an ESM receiver integrated into the pod. The pod contains an antenna on the forward and aft ends, which receive the hostile RF signal and after processing deliver the appropriate response.

Sukhoi Su-30MKI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Elta El/M-8222 self protection pod
http://www.iai.co.il/34486-26545-en/Groups_ELTA_EltaNumber_Products-ELL.aspx?btl=1

Airborne self-protection jammers are quite common. If referring to this pod, please note that a selfprotection jammer does not a 'Growler' make....

That would take at least the addition of e.g. Elta El/L 2851 Escort jammer
http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/9/36129.pdf

 

[bigzgvr4]

Are you referring to onboard electronic countermeasures? Or something else?


Sukhoi Su-30MKI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Elta El/M-8222 self protection pod
http://www.iai.co.il/34486-26545-en/Groups_ELTA_EltaNumber_Products-ELL.aspx?btl=1

Airborne self-protection jammers are quite common. If referring to this pod, please note that a selfprotection jammer does not a 'Growler' make....

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/37431-su-30-mki-growler.html

read what the indians are writting and dont read what the pakistani or other people are writting because according to indian they are trolling in that THREAD

so i believe what i said that nothing can stop MKI

"thank you come again"

 

[500]

First, what makes you sure a cruise missile will not be detected,engaged and destroyed by the SAM?

In Syria they were not detected and destroyed despite Syria has latest Pantsyrs and Buk M2.

What makes you think the radar will be up and transmitting and easy to find?

If radar is not transmitting then SAM cant work. Plus system like S-300 is very bulky and can be detected even without transmitting.

What makes you think there is only one radar?

They are expensive. Much more than cruise missiles.

If the system is capable, the crew competent then you have to get real close and take a few chances to take out the SAM. This stand off engagement stuff with cruise missiles and glide bombs looks good in a marketing brochure in real life you have to work hard to kill a competent enemy.

Of course in needs work and planning, but if u dont make mistakes u can breach air defence with minor loses.

 

[Mosamania]

What is jenking?



Why not? This is exactly how its done in real life. Saturate the air defense by giving the defenders something else to shoot at while the strike package is delivered to the kill box.



This worked in Libya against poorly trained personnel, poorly serviced and antiquated equipment. This is unlikely to work against a more competent enemy. First, what makes you sure a cruise missile will not be detected,engaged and destroyed by the SAM? What makes you think the radar will be up and transmitting and easy to find? What makes you think there is only one radar?
If the system is capable, the crew competent then you have to get real close and take a few chances to take out the SAM. This stand off engagement stuff with cruise missiles and glide bombs looks good in a marketing brochure in real life you have to work hard to kill a competent enemy.

Jenking is when an Air Craft makes evasive maneuvers against a ground based Air Defense.

Something like the Storm "Shadow" (Emphasis on Shadow), can be fired from will beyond the range of any ground based radar (250-350KM from sea level). uses terrain hugging and inertial guidance as well as gliding to pin point EXACTLY which centimeter to hit. It is called storm "shadow" for a reason, as it is a stealth cruise missile that flies virtually undetected that's one.

Second of all "Saturation" is so 1970s, "Fire as much in the air one will eventually shoot it down" policy was proved a folly during desert storm, as hitting only 12 radar installations using stand off and stealth rendered the entire Iraqi air defense almost useless. Third world countries with old soviet mentality only use that. It has been proved time and again that "interception" is the best air defense and the modern variation of interception is very different than the old one even.


SEAD operations illuminate radar positions and HARMs and ALARMs as well as cruise missiles take care of the rest. SEAD is not even that much of a challenge anymore honestly due to the ranges in which said missiles can be fired (Hence the term "Stand Off", way away in safety, After taking care of the Long range air defense systems, Buk-Ms, Pantsirs etc, can be taken care of using JDAMs way safely from their radar and missile ranges.

Currently what S-400 prides itself in, is the ability to challenge the cruise missile threat posed on these systems, the S-300 family has been rendered obsolete by the introduction of stand off capability in advanced air forces. The only way to counter them is by placing GIANT radars in all directions that detect Air Crafts from 500KMs away (Which renders the whole secrecy of position for the radar useless), and good luck with that with the introduction of stealth.

One of the F-35 draw backs as far as I am concerned is the inability to internally house the JASSM missile which makes the cruise + Stealth deadly and most frighting combination a dream... for now anyway. But the moment Stealth + Cruise can be applied it is effectively the end of all Air Defenses world wide wither it is S-300 or S-700. Currently for instance the F-15, F-16, Tornadoes, Rafales and Typhoons for example can carry out SEAD effectively against S-300 with minimal amount of trouble.

S-300 however remains a potent and effective system against not so advanced air forces in the world.

I recommend reading this while listening to the Saudi band Hayajan, take care

 

[Penguin]

An Su-34 Fullback demonstrator photographed at Kubinka in September, 2009, equipped with new wingtip mounted KNIRTI SAP-518 self-protection ECM pods, and a large centreline KNIRTI SAP-14 “Escort Jammer” support jamming pod. The KNIRTI SAP-518 ECM pod is a new technology replacement for the established L005 Sorbstiya series wingtip ECM pods. The new heavy weight high power SAP-14 is analogous to the US ALQ-99E series pods carried on the EA-6B Prowler and EA-18G Growler, but employs a fundamentally different antenna arrangement optimised to suppress emitters in the forward and aft hemispheres of the escort jamming aircraft. The pod has been cleared for carriage on the Su-30MK Flanker G/H airframes and the Su-34 Fullback

Sukhoi Su-34 Fullback; Russia's New Heavy Strike Fighter
Sukhoi Flankers - The Shifting Balance of Regional Air Power

KNIRTI (Kaluga Scientific Research Radio Technical Institute) is the leading Russian enterprise for creation of electronic warfare support in aviation.

Those pods are the equivalent of the Elta Pods, I mentioned. They clearly have US counterparts (note the Su it carries 1 single centreline pod versus multiple pods on the Growler). Question is, does the IAF actually have them? Why would IAF have them if/when they also have similar Israeli pods - at least for self defence jamming? Have there been exports to date of these two types of Knirti pods? (Checked Sipri and couldn't find any reference.) And, if there have been, how are these better than comparable Israeli and US systems, in making the SU-30MKI 'untouchable'?

See e.g.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/37431-su-30-mki-growler.html#post1301130
http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/37431-su-30-mki-growler.html#post1301132

 

[DARKY]

Sukhoi Su-34 Fullback; Russia's New Heavy Strike Fighter
Sukhoi Flankers - The Shifting Balance of Regional Air Power

KNIRTI (Kaluga Scientific Research Radio Technical Institute) is the leading Russian enterprise for creation of electronic warfare support in aviation.

Those pods are the equivalent of the Elta Pods, I mentioned. They clearly have US counterparts (note the Su it carries 1 single centreline pod versus multiple pods on the Growler). Question is, does the IAF actually have them? Why would IAF have them if/when they also have similar Israeli pods - at least for self defence jamming? Have there been exports to date of these two types of Knirti pods? (Checked Sipri and couldn't find any reference.) And, if there have been, how are these better than comparable Israeli and US systems, in making the SU-30MKI 'untouchable'?

See e.g.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/37431-su-30-mki-growler.html#post1301130
http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/37431-su-30-mki-growler.html#post1301132

Search the internet for images of Su30MKI and mock ups with SAP518 and SAP14 ... of these two SAP 518 is self defense jammer much like the elta pod you are talking about... however SAP 14 is a stand off jammer much like ALQ99 rumors are that it radiates more power than the ameican jammer... weather or not it has been fully inducted is a closely gaurded secret... although I can confirm about the fact that a Su30MKI can carry 3 such pods and was evaluated by IAF... also there is one more jamming pod bing used on Su30MKI currently ..
hence there are Russian/Israeli and European jamming pods in service with MKI.

About the untouchable part let me make it clear SU30MKI is among the most vulnerable aircraft against enemy SAM batteries.

However the standoff weapon capability and electronic warfare package has somewhat made its life easier... having said that it is still far from the league of a rafale forget about being untouchable.

 

[sancho]

What is jenking?



Why not? This is exactly how its done in real life. Saturate the air defense by giving the defenders something else to shoot at while the strike package is delivered to the kill box.



This worked in Libya against poorly trained personnel, poorly serviced and antiquated equipment. This is unlikely to work against a more competent enemy. First, what makes you sure a cruise missile will not be detected,engaged and destroyed by the SAM? What makes you think the radar will be up and transmitting and easy to find? What makes you think there is only one radar?
If the system is capable, the crew competent then you have to get real close and take a few chances to take out the SAM. This stand off engagement stuff with cruise missiles and glide bombs looks good in a marketing brochure in real life you have to work hard to kill a competent enemy.

Why not, the detection of the radar is the same, be it for an F16 CJ, a Growler, Rafale or the EF. They all use the detected radar to pinpoint the location. While the US fighters usese HARM to attack the radar, which in the past was difficult when the enemy simply turned off the radar, the GPS coordinates Rafale or EF provides to Scalp / Storm Shadow will remain viable.
Scalp / Storm Shadow also have low level, terrain following capabilities to avoid radar detection and would not attack from high altitudes like HARM or JSOW right?

Especially against such highly capable SAMs, cruise missiles seems to be the only logical choice, since it's still cheaper to loose the missile, than to loose a fighter that has to get much closer to the target with LGBs, cluster bombs, or ARMs or?

Question is, does the IAF actually have them? Why would IAF have them if/when they also have similar Israeli pods - at least for self defence jamming? Have there been exports to date of these two types of Knirti pods? (Checked Sipri and couldn't find any reference.) And, if there have been, how are these better than comparable Israeli and US systems, in making the SU-30MKI 'untouchable'?

The MKIs have Israeli self protection jammer so far, but not high power escort jammer like these. Russian system is on offer for India and the wingtip pods are already sold to export countries like China, but similarly Rafael is offering the Skyshild pod and DARE has developed own EW upgrades for the MKI, which reportedly include jamming pods too (most likely the Russian once, with customised systems).

 

[Zabaniyah]

As far as cruise missiles like the Storm Shadow go, they can effectively take out an S-300. Such SAM systems are vulnerable to low-lying targets like cruise missiles and UAVs.

To counter those, short range and point defense SAM can do the job. Any country that want good air defense should have a multi-tiered air defense system.

 

[Anas Ali]

Pantsir is used for bases protection not cities, for that is better some middle range system, as BUKm2 or older KUB/NEVA.

since the thread drifted from my original question can i ask you what is this in the read circule besides the tor-m1
looks like a radar !

 

[dbc]

Jenking is when an Air Craft makes evasive maneuvers against a ground based Air Defense.

Its 'jinking' not 'jenking'

Something like the Storm "Shadow" (Emphasis on Shadow), can be fired from will beyond the range of any ground based radar (250-350KM from sea level). uses terrain hugging and inertial guidance as well as gliding to pin point EXACTLY which centimeter to hit. It is called storm "shadow" for a reason, as it is a stealth cruise missile that flies virtually undetected that's one.

This is true in terms of the capabilities of Storm Shadow or similar cruise missile, but there are flaws in your theory. The first, you have not considered the effort it requires to find the radar. Mobile SAM operators only turn on their radars when a target is well within the SAMs MEZ(Maximum Engagement Zone). How do they know an enemy is within range? There are a number of ways, if the mobile SAM unit is part of an integrated system it receives target data from other sources. The early warning method can be as sophisticated as an airborne early warning system or long range search radar to ground spotters using radio or mobile phones to communicate. So if you can't find the SAM site how will you kill it from 350 kms?

The SEAD mission — with a motto of “first in, last out” — means F-16 drivers have to reach out and touch their foe, even at high altitudes. Pilots like Cleet soar into enemy territory hoping enemy ground patrols turn on their radars and find them. When the enemy turns on its radar, the Wild Weasels find it. Then it’s a race. Who can fire first? Then, who can avoid the oncoming missiles?

From <http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/milarticles/blweasel.htm>

Next, think of mobile SAM systems in an urban environment. The system is protected by buildings inhabited by civilians or it is protected and concealed by other urban features like ditches and canals making it nearly impossible to target it from 350km using a cruise missile like Storm Shadow. If the system is highly mobile then it very likely that the SAM has moved since the cruise missile was launched at a fixed target coordinate from a distance of 350 Kms.

Second of all "Saturation" is so 1970s, "Fire as much in the air one will eventually shoot it down" policy was proved a folly during desert storm, as hitting only 12 radar installations using stand off and stealth rendered the entire Iraqi air defense almost useless. Third world countries with old soviet mentality only use that. It has been proved time and again that "interception" is the best air defense and the modern variation of interception is very different than the old one even.

Your assertion that Iraqi air defense was almost useless after 12 cruise missile /stealth strikes is false. The Wild Weasels were killing SAMs until the day they pulled Saddam out of a dirty hole in the ground near his home town of Tikrit. Think of a USN Carrier Battle Group, do you really think a cruise missile strike using Storm Shadow or similar system will succeed against a CBG? The carrier battle group is equipped with CEC (cooperative engagement capability) this means long range anti air systems like SM-3 can receive target coordinates and updates from any asset(drones, ships, aircraft, satellite) in the network. Killing the air defense system with a single cruise missile attack is impossible.


Critical infrastructure will be as well protected as a CBG by a competent enemy and if you want to take it out you will have to degrade the systems capability by overwhelming the system with a massive coordinated attack.

 

[Penguin]

Search the internet for images of Su30MKI and mock ups with SAP518 and SAP14 ... of these two SAP 518 is self defense jammer much like the elta pod you are talking about... however SAP 14 is a stand off jammer much like ALQ99 rumors are that it radiates more power than the ameican jammer... weather or not it has been fully inducted is a closely gaurded secret... although I can confirm about the fact that a Su30MKI can carry 3 such pods and was evaluated by IAF... also there is one more jamming pod bing used on Su30MKI currently ..
hence there are Russian/Israeli and European jamming pods in service with MKI.

About the untouchable part let me make it clear SU30MKI is among the most vulnerable aircraft against enemy SAM batteries.

However the standoff weapon capability and electronic warfare package has somewhat made its life easier... having said that it is still far from the league of a rafale forget about being untouchable.

As evident from my previous post, I already identified similarities in function between the various Israeli, US and Russian pods.

The Indians I was invited to read up on in another thread say the Russian pods are not in IAF service (but the Israeli pods are)

The SU 30 MKI is a nice plane - but it is not a wunderwaffe.

 

[Penguin]

since the thread drifted from my original question can i ask you what is this in the read circule besides the tor-m1
looks like a radar !

MT-LBu command vehicle with radar. Official designation: PPRU-1M with 9S80M Dog Ear.

he legacy PPRU M/M1 series of command posts were used primarily to support the 9K35/SA-13 Gopher and 2K22/SA-19 Grison point defence SAM system. The design remains in production. Early variants used the X-band 9S80/9S80M/M1 Ovod / Dog Ear as a battery acquisition radar. The most recent variant, displayed at MAKS 2007, includes the new design digital solid state VNIIRT 9S80M1-2 X-band radar, replacing the analogue Dog Ear. The MTLBu chassis is employed.

Warsaw Pact / Russian Air Defence Command Posts

The MKIs have Israeli self protection jammer so far, but not high power escort jammer like these. Russian system is on offer for India and the wingtip pods are already sold to export countries like China, but similarly Rafael is offering the Skyshild pod and DARE has developed own EW upgrades for the MKI, which reportedly include jamming pods too (most likely the Russian once, with customised systems).

My point exactly. Plus, such systems aren't unique, not to MKI, not to Russia or India etc. Which also means, they don't make for complete invulnerability or some other miracle. Let's keep perspective and be realistic, folks!