Russian Fifth-Generation Fighter to Exceed Rivals

[sunny001]

its not just about the 4B. its also about the added risk of not having a proper 5th gen fighter at the end of the process. this risk is a major risk because failure would be a big security compromise and a setback of 5+ years on plans to induct a true stealth fighter.

plus 4B is a big amount for india no matter what. there are lots of other projects that could be funded with that money.

we're not going to get much intellectual property with pak-fa either (we'll continue to heavily depend on russia after this).

i see your point, but i think i am risk averse in matters of defence.

You know what, you are the most negative person I have come across in this forum. Most Indians in this forum are extremely positive or risk seeking as you put it. But we need both to succeed. Good Luck in the forum.

 

[Devianz]

1. we won't face jsf / f22 but we will face j-xx. in my opinion jsf is a better bet on being superior to j-xx than pak-fa. AMCA is a joke, we just don't have the industrial capability nor are we going to have it within the next 15 years.

2. the chinese have a strong base in almost everything needed to build a 5th gen plane.

3. this is the most compelling point for the fgfa but i don't think our curstomization comes for free in terms of time or money. we'll learn quite a bit on the fgfa. the value of that learning is a big plus for the pak fa no doubt.

4. i think its a realistic expectation to think that china will produce something which won't be as good as jsf but close by 2020.

OK... here goes....
1) Yes JSF maybe better bet... But the bottom line is, it does not fit the bill as an air superiority fighter. JSF fits perfectly into the USAF infrastructure because they also have considerable amount of Raptors. Other countries who don't have a Raptor equivalent are already crying foul because the JSF is not meeting their expectations.

2) Care to ellaborate... You think they have a stronger base than Russians. Last time I checked they are way behind in radar, engines and avionics. JF-17 is looking for western avionics... something PAF can do, but PLAAF cannot.

3) Of course it doesn't come for free.. That's why we are investing billions on FGFA and not on PAK-FA. To this point PAK-FA is a 100% Russian project.

4) I would like to see them produce something equal to an F-16 block50 first.


China is not to be underestimated but neither are the Russians.

 

[Devianz]

Boasting but day dreaming is still different. A thing that has hardly flown and a platform that is totally new to the world even America might find problems with their 5th gen later, then how can they say its a success !! Its nothing other than chest thumping.



So, it comes back to the point that we all mentioned, Russia can't match the west in tech, since it is going for their tech and this proves this aircraft isn't completely indigenous too if the above holds true.

And also how can they challenge the USA when they themselves are relying on Israeli and European technology !!!

Please point to an era where Russians have been overly behind Americans in terms of Fighter aircraft manufacturing and then decide whether its day dreaming or not.

 

[Devianz]

its not just about the 4B. its also about the added risk of not having a proper 5th gen fighter at the end of the process. this risk is a major risk because failure would be a big security compromise and a setback of 5+ years on plans to induct a true stealth fighter.

plus 4B is a big amount for india no matter what. there are lots of other projects that could be funded with that money.

we're not going to get much intellectual property with pak-fa either (we'll continue to heavily depend on russia after this).

i see your point, but i think i am risk averse in matters of defence.

I think we are spending upwards of $ 5B and its not a big amount if you look at some of our recent procurements. Heck we just order C-17s each costing $ 500M+. Each year our MOD is returning billions of dollars of unspent money back to the treasury.

As for part which says the risk of not having a proper 5th gen fighter.
What according to you makes up a 5th gen fighter? And how many of those features are available on JSF?
You think that JSF is a true 5th gen and miles ahead of present 4.5gens... Well EADS/BAE and Dassault would disagree with you.

 

[humanfirst]

There is no question about the stealth comparable to f35 in pak fa.if it wasn't stealthy enough,india would have gone for f35 instead.Other than that pak-fa leads in payload(lol i've heard f35 can carry only 2 a2g weapons!),service ceiling,thrust,3d thrust vectoring,supercruise,radar range,ferry range and weapons of much longer range(ramjet powered bvr aams of 400 km range,radar guided missiles having range of 250 km!!)India getting this beast with tot is better than getting f35 with many strings attached,of which many partner countries are not satisfied either.

 

[Stalker]

the chinese defense budget is already 2x russia and will get to 3x or more within 5 years.

russia is the wrong bet in the long term.

We have lots and lots of funds when compared to Israel...still we are unable to produce equipment of Israeli standard. We are buying from them. same would be the case with China..they might be having funds, but in no way they are going to buy decades of EXPERIENCE with it! They are still unable to produce fighter jet engine...and they are killing their innovativeness by reverse engineering!

 

[Markus]

We have lots and lots of funds when compared to Israel...still we are unable to produce equipment of Israeli standard. We are buying from them. same would be the case with China..they might be having funds, but in no way they are going to buy decades of EXPERIENCE with it! They are still unable to produce fighter jet engine...and they are killing their innovativeness by reverse engineering!

Reverse Engineering is an art that very few countries have. It's not a joke. I will give full marks to any country capable of manufacturing a better product by reverse engineering it.

 

[GMAIL]

Reverse Engineering is an art that very few countries have. It's not a joke. I will give full marks to any country capable of manufacturing a better product by reverse engineering it.

yes you are right but here we are talking about 5th gen fighter

they are still strugling for j10b and how any expect that they can make batter 5th gen plan as compare to russia ????

 

[your fear]

You know what, you are the most negative person I have come across in this forum. Most Indians in this forum are extremely positive or risk seeking as you put it. But we need both to succeed. Good Luck in the forum.

are you sure about his nationality

 

[Markus]

yes you are right but here we are talking about 5th gen fighter

they are still strugling for j10b and how any expect that they can make batter 5th gen plan as compare to russia ????

Reverse engineering cannot and should not be applied to a machine as a whole. China may successfully reverse engineer the systems and sub systems of any existing product and use the same in their own projects. Mind you, even DRDO has come with their own versions of many electronic/electrical components of existing similar products.

But China, given their vast experience in reverse engineering can undertake it on larger scale.

Its not that any new plane will have all new components - it may share some systems from existing platforms which can be changed, customized or reverse engineered to fit ur requirements.

 

[GMAIL]

Reverse engineering cannot and should not be applied to a machine as a whole. China may successfully reverse engineer the systems and sub systems of any existing product and use the same in their own projects. Mind you, even DRDO has come with their own versions of many electronic/electrical components of existing similar products.

But China, given their vast experience in reverse engineering can undertake it on larger scale.

Its not that any new plane will have all new components - it may share some systems from existing platforms which can be changed, customized or reverse engineered to fit ur requirements.

but still they are way way behind from russia in this field

only chance for them to make 5gen ac is that they can join the PakFa program or can buy directly from russia cause India is Partner in FGFA not PAKFA

its highly doubtful but still possible

 

[Thomas]

People should give Russia credit for having the ability to build the T-50 from scratch rather then simply rip off another design and reverse engineer it. For a first generation Russian design it may not be up to the same standards yet as the F-22. But I'm sure they will learn and upgrade future stealth designs, Just like the U.S. did in it's program.

Where Russia and China are lacking right now is expertise and ability to manufacture in quantity many of the subsystems that go into a 5th generation fighter. That is what has slowed down production and testing.

 

[中国万岁-ProsperThroughCo-]

prosperthroughco-op... Actually, I'd like to see the Russians/Indians succeed in this. That'll shut the American arrogance up

I smell jealously.

What does F-22/F-35 and top technologies have to do with arrogancey, If russians are competent enough they're welcome to develop and succeed in respective fields.

americans have all the rights to be "proud", they did hard work and spent alot of time and money to come to this stage to become the technological masters.

Actually, they have bragging rights yes, but maybe they will think again next time they say "China is at least 10 years behind..", "No way the Chinese can make it", "the time the J-XX is finished, we will have something better" etc. So they'll think twice before critisising China and having exercises close to China. Best would be if China could have naval exercises with Cuba..

And to the flag issues.. there were no Indian or Russian flag here

 

[inddef]

lol. why is my concern about india's national interest under question. i am just concerned that we might've made the wrong choice.

maybe the alarmism over china turns out to be false, but i am inclined to think the the US is the right way to go for sourcing fighter a/c in the future. thats all.

 

[Devianz]

maybe the alarmism over china turns out to be false, but i am inclined to think the the US is the right way to go for sourcing fighter a/c in the future. thats all.

Most Indians will disagree with you.