Russian Fifth-Generation Fighter to Exceed Rivals

[Markus]

all valid points. my only quip is that with the amount of funding we'll put into pak-fa would get us easily into the jsf program. money talks.

and my fear is that the pak-fa is not going to be anywhere near as stealthy as the jsf.

and i just hope the chinese fighter isn't anywhere near as good as the jsf

Some reports suggest JSF has been offered to Indian navy but no official word yet.

On PAK-FA, we must wait for the final model to get ready, we are still testing the prototypes and too early to say anything.

 

[Tshering22]

Too early to tell. Since when did Chinese become superior to Russians in aircraft technology? Just because they have thrice the budget is not going to increase their knowledge overnight without trials and errors. PAK-FA was started during the last of Soviet era as a programme rivalling F-22.

So there's been considerable time and money put into it and we cannot say anything just because of 1 prototype. There might be 4-5 prototypes more developed for tests on internal payload, weapons integration, stealth etc.

 

[Devianz]

all valid points. my only quip is that with the amount of funding we'll put into pak-fa would get us easily into the jsf program. money talks.

and my fear is that the pak-fa is not going to be anywhere near as stealthy as the jsf.

and i just hope the chinese fighter isn't anywhere near as good as the jsf

Unfortunately money doesn't talk in the JSF program. UK has pumped in a considerable amount of money into JSF program and they don't have much say in the JSF project. Compare that to T-50 which will be tailor made according to our needs including some Indian inputs.

You don't need to be as stealthy as JSF. A VLO design is enough, T-50 would have bigger and more powerful radars, more weapons on internal pylons than JSF, larger range without the use of external fuel tanks and super-maneuverability. And no, maneuverability is not obsolete as you believe it to be.

And Russians are not making PAK-FA keeping JSF in mind. They are clearly making it as a counter to F-22 even though the chances of them meeting in a battle is very slim. The present prototype is just in its initial stages of testing. It will be highly naive to say that it lacks stealth at this point of time. The airframe will undergo considerable amount of changes.

Looks at the difference between YF-22(F-22 prototype) and F-22A.

Also the difference between T-10(Su-27 prototype) and Su-27

 

[inddef]

the thing is that with the pak-fa we're choosing to reinvent the wheel instead of joining a robust program.

i know that we have a different a/f dotrcine preferring twin engines and higher ranges, but yet stealth is priceless.

 

[inddef]

Unfortunately money doesn't talk in the JSF program. UK has pumped in a considerable amount of money into JSF program and they don't have much say in the JSF project. Compare that to T-50 which will be tailor made according to our needs including some Indian inputs.

You don't need to be as stealthy as JSF. A VLO design is enough, T-50 would bigger and more powerful radars, more weapons on internal pylons than JSF, larger range without the use of external fuel tanks and super-maneuverability. And no, maneuverability is not obsolete as you believe it to be.

yep, i understand all this and i understand the jsf shortcomings, but i think it would've worked for all of our purposes except a long range bombing mission into china.

i have a different opinion on stealth. i think stealth is very important, especially in an attacking role, where you'd want to evade SAMs and not be seen on the radars till the last few seconds.

for defensive doctrine, stealth isn't that important.

 

[Indiarox]

@inddef
* Prove how the JSF,J-XX is better than the Pak-Fa
*about BVRAAMS a little expansion on their advantage it would have against the Pakfa would be helpful.
Il go in to the details on how the Pak-Fa is better for India when compared to the JSF in thee morning im too sleepy to rite up long post now(sorry for that)

J-XX is still shrouded in mystery and speculation we shall discuss about that when relevant (reliable not fanboyish)info comes out on the J-xx

 

[Devianz]

yep, i understand all this and i understand the jsf shortcomings, but i think it would've worked for all of our purposes except a long range bombing mission into china.

i have a different opinion on stealth. i think stealth is very important, especially in an attacking role, where you'd want to evade SAMs and not be seen on the radars till the last few seconds.

for defensive doctrine, stealth isn't that important.

That's why Russians have made long range A to G missiles that will take out any radar base long before they can detect the presence of PAK-FA.

 

[inddef]

jsf would've been a better bet than pak-fa for india because :

1) lockheed martin has made f22 !
2) the development is mostly done. will enter production a good 4 years before pak-fa.
3) its a true stealth aircraft.
4) american bvraams will probably maintain lead over russian ones (maybe asraam / mbda ones will be an option the hal-fgfa but the su30s run russian bvraams)
5) we could've bought our way into jsf program with the same money commitment we've made to russia.
6) it works for most indian needs and we have enough su-30s for deep strike.
7) it'll almost certainly be superior to the j-xx, which is china's first attempt.

now i am a naive outsider but thats how i see it. maybe pak-fa will surprise by being better than jsf and/or f22, but i am skeptical.

 

[Tshering22]

the thing is that with the pak-fa we're choosing to reinvent the wheel instead of joining a robust program.

i know that we have a different a/f dotrcine preferring twin engines and higher ranges, but yet stealth is priceless.

Buddy, joining PAKFA programme was the best thing we have done till this date. I myself was surprised that our dumb government finally listened to IAF's concerns for once when I heard the joining. Let's see some facts:

1) We are not going to be facing either F-22 or JSF anytime in the future as none of its wielders are our enemies.

2) China might have an impressive manufacturing capabilities coupled with massive money but if Russians who are ages ahead in aeronautics despite the setback they had in 90s, are facing issues, so will the Chinese. Stealth tech is new to Asia and Eurasia and there will be trials and errors from both of them and even us with our AMCA.

3) As Devianz said, UK pumped billions in the JSF still what did it get out of it? A customer-supplier relationship even then. In Pak Fa.. we aren't getting the same situation.

4) Ignore F-35 and F-22 for now and look at our surroundings. Pakistan isn't going to get JSF for free anytime soon since the program itself is in trouble with money issues despite the tech it promises. China is a skilled country in manufacturing and has rapidly climbed the ladder of success in defense but an impressive economy with manufacturing skills and killer defense budget doesn't essentially translate to a raptor equivalent.

We didn't even know about J-10's existence till 2007-8! Therefore no matter what, we aren't going to be knowing what the Chinese have until they wish to show us. Therefore over-estimating them is a big mistake. Like underestimating is wrong, so is over-estimating.

 

[inddef]

Buddy, joining PAKFA programme was the best thing we have done till this date. I myself was surprised that our dumb government finally listened to IAF's concerns for once when I heard the joining. Let's see some facts:

1) We are not going to be facing either F-22 or JSF anytime in the future as none of its wielders are our enemies.

2) China might have an impressive manufacturing capabilities coupled with massive money but if Russians who are ages ahead in aeronautics despite the setback they had in 90s, are facing issues, so will the Chinese. Stealth tech is new to Asia and Eurasia and there will be trials and errors from both of them and even us with our AMCA.

3) As Devianz said, UK pumped billions in the JSF still what did it get out of it? A customer-supplier relationship even then. In Pak Fa.. we aren't getting the same situation.

4) Ignore F-35 and F-22 for now and look at our surroundings. Pakistan isn't going to get JSF for free anytime soon since the program itself is in trouble with money issues despite the tech it promises. China is a skilled country in manufacturing and has rapidly climbed the ladder of success in defense but an impressive economy with manufacturing skills and killer defense budget doesn't essentially translate to a raptor equivalent.

We didn't even know about J-10's existence till 2007-8! Therefore no matter what, we aren't going to be knowing what the Chinese have until they wish to show us. Therefore over-estimating them is a big mistake. Like underestimating is wrong, so is over-estimating.

1. we won't face jsf / f22 but we will face j-xx. in my opinion jsf is a better bet on being superior to j-xx than pak-fa. AMCA is a joke, we just don't have the industrial capability nor are we going to have it within the next 15 years.

2. the chinese have a strong base in almost everything needed to build a 5th gen plane.

3. this is the most compelling point for the fgfa but i don't think our curstomization comes for free in terms of time or money. we'll learn quite a bit on the fgfa. the value of that learning is a big plus for the pak fa no doubt.

4. i think its a realistic expectation to think that china will produce something which won't be as good as jsf but close by 2020.

 

[中国万岁-ProsperThroughCo-]

I have little knowledge in this field, but I do know that China now possesses things like "5 axis laser welder" and supercomputers. Things that only mostly Western countries possessed.

Surely, such things must help the J-XX program.

Actually, I'd like to see the Russians/Indians succeed in this. That'll shut the American arrogance up..

 

[inddef]

I have little knowledge in this field, but I do know that China now possesses things like "5 axis laser welder" and supercomputers. Things that only mostly Western countries possessed.

Surely, such things must help the J-XX program.

Actually, I'd like to see the Russians/Indians succeed in this. That'll shut the American arrogance up..

that last line was epic. you hope russia and india succeed and then pakistani and chinese flags.

 

[sunny001]

1. we won't face jsf / f22 but we will face j-xx. in my opinion jsf is a better bet on being superior to j-xx than pak-fa. AMCA is a joke, we just don't have the industrial capability nor are we going to have it within the next 15 years.

2. the chinese have a strong base in almost everything needed to build a 5th gen plane.

3. this is the most compelling point for the fgfa but i don't think our curstomization comes for free in terms of time or money. we'll learn quite a bit on the fgfa. the value of that learning is a big plus for the pak fa no doubt.

4. i think its a realistic expectation to think that china will produce something which won't be as good as jsf but close by 2020.

Are you kidding me here? You expect China to succeed with J-xx program because they have money but you ignore Russian experience with aeronautics. Buddy, Russia had been super power for about 50 years, you know how? they just kept coming out with new toys.

You keep repeating China would spend more. But India - Russia could spend more as well, as we develop. If we cannot match them, we could add other partners. I highly doubt Chinese could come up with a great fighter just because they have money considering no other developed country assisting them.

India could at least garner avionics and bvraams from Israel or France. But no one is helping China in this regard.

 

[Luftwaffe]

prosperthroughco-op... Actually, I'd like to see the Russians/Indians succeed in this. That'll shut the American arrogance up

I smell jealously.

What does F-22/F-35 and top technologies have to do with arrogancey, If russians are competent enough they're welcome to develop and succeed in respective fields.

americans have all the rights to be "proud", they did hard work and spent alot of time and money to come to this stage to become the technological masters.

 

[ambidex]

Though i am not optimistic about PAKFA cause its still a distant adventure for India. In Punjabi we say ''vekh begani chopree mat lalchaiyea jeeb''. Its still not ours.
But i have found a very good read specially for those who are distrusting its capabilities. Please note Russians are Pitching it as an evolutionary design. It speaks every thing

Assessing the Sukhoi PAK-FA / ????????????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????

Enjoy.