Russia sees opportunities in India’s new submarine deal

[Hellraiser007]

From the pic Amur 1850 seems to fit the bill. It has all capabilities what we are looking in our deal. Range in both mode, speed in submerged speed + missile firing capability.


What you fail to see the whole package. It is not individual per unit price. Package include many capabilities which Indian navy has not even touched till now.

Mate That tender also include tech transfer and establishing submarine build capabilities in India, Same as Kolkata class destroyers and Shivalik class frigates.

 

[veekysingh]

The Project-75 construction of scorpenes have cost India close to $4 billion i.e nearly $700 million per scorpenes, now the P-75I will consist of much more capable subs with increased tonnage, AIP, launch of Brahmos, land attack capability, increased range,etc. + we will get the complete TOT for the subs, thus the entire Project-75I will cost close to $10 billion.

see what i got on wiki ''Both Fincantieri and Rubin gave a joint presentation to the Indian Navy offering to build 6 S1000 boats for $3.5 billion'' so where the other 6.5 billion are going? i dont think puting AIP and making them able to fire ''BRAHMOSH'' gonna cost 1 billion each.

 

[veekysingh]

Mate That tender also include tech transfer and establishing submarine build capabilities in India, Same as Kolkata class destroyers and Shivalik class frigates.

tech transfer cant cost twice more . india already building sub's from france , i dont think other submarine building capabilities gonna cost us this expencive.

 

[Sinnerman108]

The French will get no piece of this pie ?

and the americans will loose this RFP also ... after getting no share of the MMRCA ?

 

[KRAIT]

The French will get no piece of this pie ?
and the americans will loose this RFP also ... after getting no share of the MMRCA ?

US is not involved in this deal. It already has good number of orders from India. Indian Navy has already ordered billions worth P8I aircrafts. All nations have their share of pie right now, from US, Russia, France etc.

 

[SpArK]

The French will get no piece of this pie ?

and the americans will loose this RFP also ... after getting no share of the MMRCA ?

MMRCA is just 1 of the deal among 100s and 1000s, the countries partipates.

Countries are not stupid to assume that life stands still after loosing a deal or 2.

 

[arp2041]

see what i got on wiki ''Both Fincantieri and Rubin gave a joint presentation to the Indian Navy offering to build 6 S1000 boats for $3.5 billion'' so where the other 6.5 billion are going? i dont think puting AIP and making them able to fire ''BRAHMOSH'' gonna cost 1 billion each.

Firstly, wiki as u know can't be trusted completely, i m not able to find the source page of the quoted figures.

Secondly, IN will never buy this sub as it's capability are nearly half (range,tonnage, speed, etc) of the current batch of scorpenes itself, so why will it buy a sub for P-75I less capable than P-75 sub??

Thirdly, there is no way P-75I cost only $3.5 billion when P-75 is costing $4 billion (this doesn't include AIP, brahmos launch, land attack capabilities, etc.), so ur generalization for all sub types is wrong.

The French will get no piece of this pie ?

and the americans will loose this RFP also ... after getting no share of the MMRCA ?

For France - Maybe or Maybe not, depends on there product.

+ US no longer builds conventional sub, so no issue discussing it.

 

[Sinnerman108]

US is not involved in this deal. It already has good number of orders from India. Indian Navy has already ordered billions worth P8I aircrafts. All nations have their share of pie right now, from US, Russia, France etc.

You do realize what that sounds like ?

Sigh ... East India Company !

MMRCA is just 1 of the deal among 100s and 1000s, the countries partipates.

Countries are not stupid to assume that life stands still after loosing a deal or 2.

Ok, 100s and 1000s ...

 

[Hellraiser007]

tech transfer cant cost twice more . india already building sub's from france , i dont think other submarine building capabilities gonna cost us this expencive.

\


I think there is a proposal to establish second chain of sub manufacturing facilities for P75I subs.

 

[veekysingh]

i m confused , better wait and see.

 

[Vasily Zaytsev]

You do realize what that sounds like ?

Sigh ... East India Company !



Ok, 100s and 1000s ...

Tsk...Tsk...

 

[sancho]

So if we planned to for Amur which one would India choose, Amur 950 or 1650? and what do you mean by "for amur950 30 days only"? i didn't get it

Let me try to help. The Amur class is build in 2 varients, the smaller 950 and the bigger 1650. The 950 offers less performance, because the size limitation reduces the number of torpedo tubes, ammo, food or fuel that can be carried, just like less crew compartments will be available. However, it was designed with VLS for cruise missiles from the start, to provide it credible firepower. According to the Rubin (manufacturer) website, another hull modul can be added for an AIP propulsion section.

For IN, only the Amur 1650 is on offer, most likely because the 950 doesn't fullfil several requirements, like range and a endurcance, possibly number of torpedo tubes as well. This version is far bigger, even in it's basic version, which neither has a VLS or AIP section (see sub 1 below).

However, according to the manufacturer another modul can be added for the AIP section (sub 2). For cruise missile attack, nothing is mentioned about VLS at all, which would require the a 2nd modul (sub 3), infact it states:

The boat is distinguished by the capability of firing up to 6 missiles in a salvo against targets at sea and on shore

ЦКБ МТ Ð*убин: Amur 1650


Which clearly hints on using torpedo tubes to launch them, this will be even confirmed in the brochure:

http://www.ckb-rubin.ru/fileadmin/editor/listovki/Amur_1650_eng.pdf


The 950 with VLS and an even an additional modul for AIP, would roughly be the size of the basic 1650, while the bigger one obviously offers only the possibility to add 1 more modul. Similar was stated by DCNS officials about Scorpene as well, when asked about the addition of Brahmos. So both, Amur 1650 and Scorpene offers Anti ship or land attack missiles only via torpedo tubes, but to similar ranges like Brahmos.

The Russians offer to integrate Brahmos only as a goody for us, because they know that Indians love it. The downside is lower performance of the sub (less endurance and range, noisier propulsion) and as even the Russian officials stated, IN never had requested the addition of Brahmos to Amur class!

 

[sancho]

i m confused , better wait and see.

Check this, maybe it helps to understand some points:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...rines-under-project-75-i-g-2.html#post3668417

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...rines-under-project-75-i-g-3.html#post3669977

 

[sancho]

German subs can't accommodate Brahmos either, so nothing to gain there. May the one with better sonar stealth, weapon systems and AIP wins.

Apart from the more proven and mature sub, it offers more torpedo tubes and soon IDAS air defence missiles, also much higher endurance, some of the most advanced systems and less crew.

 

[Skull and Bones]

Apart from the more proven and mature sub, it offers more torpedo tubes and soon IDAS air defence missiles, also much higher endurance, some of the most advanced systems and less crew.

Some of the Russian subs are also equipped with air defense systems, can opt for that one too.