Russia sees opportunities in India’s new submarine deal

[jimmydefence]

But Russian Subs have only shoulder launched missiles like Igla as air defence weapons. All of our Kilos carry four rounds of Igla.

 

[Skull and Bones]

But Russian Subs have only shoulder launched missiles like Igla as air defence weapons. All of our Kilos carry four rounds of Igla.

I thought it's something like this.

 

[jha]

A waste in my humble opinion. Increasing the number of Scorpenes and diverting the money for SSGNs and SSNs based on Arihanth Class would have been better option. In the meantime another Akula ( if available ) could be leased.

 

[sancho]

Some of the Russian subs are also equipped with air defense systems, can opt for that one too.

As jimmydefence said, I only know systems that would be fitted on the deck and can be used if the sub is surfaced only, while the Germans and the French now have developed systems that can be used even if the sub is submerged.

A waste in my humble opinion. Increasing the number of Scorpenes and diverting the money for SSGNs and SSNs based on Arihanth Class would have been better option. In the meantime another Akula ( if available ) could be leased.

That's what might be the end result, but simply going for additional subs, won't reduce the price or would add additional benefits. In a competition though, the French are forced to offer us more goodies.

 

[Skull and Bones]

As jimmydefence said, I only know systems that would be fitted on the deck and can be used if the sub is surfaced only, while the Germans and the French now have developed systems that can be used even if the sub is submerged.

That'd be practically next to being useless.

 

[sancho]

That'd be practically next to being useless.

It was useful when the subs needed to surface to reload the batteries, but only then. The new generation of sub launched air defence missiles, can be used even when the sub is at persicope dept, or even deeper to attack ASW helicopters, MPAs, or even light ASW boats. IDAS and partially the MICA system can even be used for light land attack too, so this capability will be a very useful one in future and that's why we need subs that have it and get that capability for our SSBNs / SSNs too.

 

[Yeti]

From what I was reading the German HDW models sold to Korea and Greece have had various technical issues which resulted in higher noise levels and no such issues have been reported with the Scorpène class submarines offered by DCNS which were sold to Chile or Brazil etc. My view is we should stick with France they can provide us help with our nuclear submarine project like they are doing with Brazil, perhaps a enlarged new model of Scorpene with AIP would be ideal for the Indian Navy. Not to say Russia might not have something to offer us which would be too good to turn down they may well pull a rabbit out the hat and surprise us.

 

[Gessler]

The French will get no piece of this pie ?

and the americans will loose this RFP also ... after getting no share of the MMRCA ?

My foolish friend, does US have any AIP-equipped SSK on offer for sale with ToT?

 

[sancho]

From what I was reading the German HDW models sold to Korea and Greece have had various technical issues which resulted in higher noise levels and no such issues have been reported with the Scorpène class submarines offered by DCNS which were sold to Chile or Brazil etc. My view is we should stick with France they can provide us help with our nuclear submarine project like they are doing with Brazil, perhaps a enlarged new model of Scorpene with AIP would be ideal for the Indian Navy. Not to say Russia might not have something to offer us which would be too good to turn down they may well pull a rabbit out the hat and surprise us.

The Greek reports can't be taken seriously, they just wanted to reduce the price. Some minor changes were done, to fix the early problems, but the fact that the Greek not only inducted the subs they first rejected, but then even ordered additional once says it all.
In S. Korea the problems were similar early issues, today they have ordered more and are the prime customer of this class, which they wouldn't be if the sub would not be cable.
The only Scorpene customers so far are Chile and Malaysia and they only have Diesel-Electric subs, no AIP. Brazils order is completely different anyway, since they get Scorpene hulls, but will integrate an indigenous nuclear propulsion to it in future.

 

[Skull and Bones]

My foolish friend, does US have any AIP-equipped SSK on offer for sale with ToT?

US doesn't operate any diesel-electric submarines.

 

[Yeti]

The Greek reports can't be taken seriously, they just wanted to reduce the price. Some minor changes were done, to fix the early problems, but the fact that the Greek not only inducted the subs they first rejected, but then even ordered additional once says it all.
In S. Korea the problems were similar early issues, today they have ordered more and are the prime customer of this class, which they wouldn't be if the sub would not be cable.
The only Scorpene customers so far are Chile and Malaysia and they only have Diesel-Electric subs, no AIP. Brazils order is completely different anyway, since they get Scorpene hulls, but will integrate an indigenous nuclear propulsion to it in future.

That makes more sense as it was surprising to me given the Germans skill in hi-tech manufacturing and efficiency they would have such issues in their production models that were sold. There was a report in Janes I was reading about a new type of AIP system that is being developed by Sener and HDW based on a fuel cell methanol reformer technology.

HDW has pioneered the development of AIP systems based on fuel-cell technology; the latest Type 214 design uses two Siemens 120 kW fuel cell modules. However, the current system requires heavy metal hydride storage cylinders to store hydrogen on board.

A methanol reformer system provides an alternative means of producing hydrogen for a fuel-cell AIP system, but its function requires water and methanol to be passed through a complex technical process.


Wondering if this could be a option for the Indian Navy to consider in this tender as it seems to be a more efficient use of technnology.

 

[sancho]

A methanol reformer system provides an alternative means of producing hydrogen for a fuel-cell AIP system, but its function requires water and methanol to be passed through a complex technical process.


Wondering if this could be a option for the Indian Navy to consider in this tender as it seems to be a more efficient use of technnology.

I read it too, but the new tech might be aimed on U216 developments, or later upgrades of the current U212/U214 fleets. However, for India this offers also a huge advantage to partner the Germans in not only the development of the U216 sub according to Indian requirements, but jointly develop the NG fuel cell technology with one of the most experienced partners in the field. We still make the huge mistake to put the focus more on developing techs alone, that others already has developed (4th gen fighter, MMR radar, GaS AESA radar, current generation LGBs and BVR missiles, a 5th gen fighter, HALs LUH and IMRH) and mainly to saya, that we are able to develop such things aswell. The problem however is, that the rest of the world is moving ahead at the same time, so we don't reduce the gap at all.
Co-developments in for NG techs on the other side, makes not only our forces more capable, but get our industry also the chance to learn much faster and reduce the gap to other nations, that's why co-developments like FGFA, MTA, Brahmos, Barak 8 SAM are so important any why I hope for more such developments.

In the current situation IMO the best solution would be 4 to 6 additional Scorpene subs, with MESMA AIP and sub launched Scalp missiles. While we should jointly develop up to 12 x U216s with the Germans, according to our requirements, with advanced systems and export benefits for our industry, instead of just another current generation SSK developed in India. Also I would try to get the licence production rights of IDAS and add it to all Scorpene, SSBN and SSN subs in INs fleet!

But what do I know.

 

[Yeti]

I read it too, but the new tech might be aimed on U216 developments, or later upgrades of the current U212/U214 fleets. However, for India this offers also a huge advantage to partner the Germans in not only the development of the U216 sub according to Indian requirements, but jointly develop the NG fuel cell technology with one of the most experienced partners in the field. We still make the huge mistake to put the focus more on developing techs alone, that others already has developed (4th gen fighter, MMR radar, GaS AESA radar, current generation LGBs and BVR missiles, a 5th gen fighter, HALs LUH and IMRH) and mainly to saya, that we are able to develop such things aswell. The problem however is, that the rest of the world is moving ahead at the same time, so we don't reduce the gap at all.
Co-developments in for NG techs on the other side, makes not only our forces more capable, but get our industry also the chance to learn much faster and reduce the gap to other nations, that's why co-developments like FGFA, MTA, Brahmos, Barak 8 SAM are so important any why I hope for more such developments.

In the current situation IMO the best solution would be 4 to 6 additional Scorpene subs, with MESMA AIP and sub launched Scalp missiles. While we should jointly develop up to 12 x U216s with the Germans, according to our requirements, with advanced systems and export benefits for our industry, instead of just another current generation SSK developed in India. Also I would try to get the licence production rights of IDAS and add it to all Scorpene, SSBN and SSN subs in INs fleet!

But what do I know.

Fully agree with you here the German firms such as Siemens are the tech leaders in terms of the use of fuel cells, that was my concern also Sancho when I read that DRDO wishes to develop our own version of AIP with Project 75 (I) all well and good on paper but do we have the experience in the field? much better to linkup with HDW and Siemens who are the industry specialist for this technology. I really like the U216 subs always have the hulls are solid being double hulled and constructed with HY80 steel they are super quiet through the use of sound absorbing coating on the hull.


There is a intresting paper on Fuel Cell Propulsion of Submarines by Dr. Albert E. Hammerschmidt, Siemens AG, Erlangen which is worth a read.

http://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/internet-dms/Internet/MarineComm/General/Docs/Siemens%20Presents%20Fuel%20Cell%20at%20the%20Advance%20Naval%20Propulsion%20Symposium.pdf

 

[faithfulguy]

^^^^^^^2, Good, this is when you guys put your thinking cap on.

 

[Yeti]

^^^^^^^2, Good, this is when you guys put your thinking cap on.

Cost will also be a factor though the Russian Amur class submarine is a fair bit cheaper to those offered by HDW plus they may well offer a good chunk of transfer-of-technology in return as well as localized production in Indian shipyards. After the Vikramaditya episode the Russians will be keen to get back on track with the Indian Navy and could offer more carrots to win the deal but I share the view with Sancho we should go for the U216 model based on our requirements which could be jointly produced and marketed for export.