Russia-Pakistan relations limited by India

[Patriot]

People here somehow think by improving relations with Russia it will block everything to India which is a mere fantasy.Indo Russian Relations are too strong to be effected by Pakistan.We did the right thing to Soviets after all they played a huge rule in 71 fiasco and they paid the price on it.Today Soviet Union does not exit anymore.

 

[muse]

Republic

The US, at least to my mind, is hoping to develop a deeper reationship with Pakistan -- and it's a net loss - the relationship has no basis - just a weapon supply relationship, supplanated by AID (politican's candy) -- A real relationship with the US would first and foremost have to be commercial, secondly, the Pakistani population simply will not accept regardless whether US or Russia, that is at war with Islam and Muslims at home and abroad - like it or not, it's reality.

I agree with Patriot and it's really what I am pointing to as well, namely that the Indian has little to do with relations between Pakistan and Russia - these relationships have their own logic and dynamic and the Indian is tangential to this.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

Pakistan should help Russia to protect their interests in Afghanistan and in return we can build civilian to civilian relationship. Kashmir issue should be raised after both countries get a little closer to each other. If Pakistan joins Russian camp, Iran already in it, this will cause trouble in Washington. Either they will improve relations with Pakistan, will stop the hostility OR they will let us go while bringing India in their camp slowly. I think that the second option is more realistic than the first one. Russia and Pakistan should have mutual relationship BECAUSE we share the SAME region! As Muse said, had we not supported Chechnya, the Russian stance on Kashmir would have been different altogether. However, one should always help people in need. It will be quite naive of us if we think that the U.S. is not running its proxy in that region (Chechnya), they sure are. So, Russia should seek help from us and we can help them someway. In return, we can also benefit. For the long term relationship, one should focus on the cultural aspect!

 

[SEAL]

Japan and USA are allies now despite the fact USA nuked their two cities. Russia want access to warms waters and economic corporation with Pakistan, Indian politicians and establishment needs to change backward mindset.

 

[Republic of Pakistan]

Thank you for the response Muse. I do agree that the Russian campaigns in Chechnya as well as the current US campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan cloud Pakistani people's perceptions on the benefits of potential close diplomatic alliance, akin to that of China-Pakistan for example. But the problem is neither are at war with Islam in my opinion. Russia in fact has a large percentage of Muslims in the armed forces. In the US, Muslims are living well, following their faith and making an amount of money I as a Pakistani can never hope to, even as a neuro surgeon or first astronaut (maybe as a politician). We should be on page with the US's policies, we should not side with Saddam and we should also closely examine Russia's current dealing with Chechnya. Our public should really understand this.

 

[Patriot]

Our public is blind..if they keep thinking like this Pakistan would be isolated.Thankfully our Diplomats don't think like them.Religion should not be a factor in international diplomacy.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

Our public is blind..if they keep thinking like this Pakistan would be isolated.Thankfully our Diplomats don't think like them.Religion should not be a factor in international diplomacy.

We should have a multi dimensional foreign policy! I remember watching a retired Pakistani Major saying that we cannot have good relationship with Israel because if we do than KSA will come down to us. However, the same argument can be presented to them. If India can have good relationship with Israel and Arab states than why can't we have? If KSA is so keen to keep us out from our relationship with Israel which can benefit us, than KSA should cancel all the oil and defence contracts with India since India is our enemy. KSA is playing double game with us!

NOTE: The only reason I brought India was to shed some light on multi dimensional policy. Please do not derail the thread!

 

[Patriot]

Absolutely I agree with you - International Diplomacy is not one sum game like many Members here would like it to be.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

Absolutely I agree with you - International Diplomacy is not one sum game like many Members here would like it to be.

Foreign policy should have little to influence of religion. We HAVE TO HAVE multi dimensional state policy in order to survive! Pakistanis do not understand that especially the ones on PDF.

 

[Republic of Pakistan]

tell me 1 thing......pakistan lives on US aid......then obviously we cant have gud relation with russia......either we lick US dick or RUSSIAN dick!!

To end poverty, accumulate wealth. Economic relationships flourish when diplomacy opens the flood gates. We neglect this aspect and focus on how to obtain weapons instead. We are also wasting our relationship with China today. See how much aid they have sent us, and see how much is sitting in their interest accounts of their interest accounts.

 

[pmukherjee]

Well also it has to with legacy of hostile Russian views towards most of the muslim world particulary the oil richies.

Since when has Russia been hostile to Muslim nations? That indeed is news. Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Libya, other north African and central Asian Muslim nations have all had long standing friendly relations with USSR/Russia. Many of these countries have taken Russia's support to take on USA/Israel. This theory that Russia has been consistently anti Islamic is pure bunkum.

Even Syria and Libya are slipping fast into western camps thanks to Saudi persuation.

Maybe, but it has more to do with the reduced efficacy of Russia as a counterweight to the USA as compared to that of the erstwhile USSR.

Russian neeed to give up arrogance and learn that they cant make a political clout by selling run of mill arms to failing nations and dictators for pennies on dollar.

Surely you are referring to China and not Russia. Ooops....the principle markets for Chinese military exports are Pakistan and DPRK.

Russia has always thought to establish itself in Asia by partnering with politically unpopular India and ignore the big player China.

Oh yes, and the Chinese are very popular? Just ask the Japanese and the South Koreans and the Vietnamese and the Indians. Except for Pakistanis and their radical razakar jamati brother-in-arms from BD, who else swoons over China?

Just how did Russia attempt to establish itself in Asia when nearly all of Russia IS IN ASIA???

Amusing post nevertheless!!

 

[muse]

We should be on page with the US's policies, we should not side with Saddam and we should also closely examine Russia's current dealing with Chechnya. Our public should really understand this

Certainly, if US policies are friendly towards us and our interest, we should reciprocate -- but we should never again have the kind of relationship we once had with the US. We need neither friend nor ally which is neither friend nor ally.

Pakistan's improving relationship with Russia, similarly, is a two way street - our goal, at least to my thinking, should be to gain membership in the SCO. That's where are interests in the region are; a strong vibrant relationship with brother ally China and a growing relationship with Russia.

 

[Materialistic]

Russians are very great people because they never forget their past and have courage and will to make things rite.
I dont think they are going to forget that easily what Pakistan did in Afghanistan to them.
and ofcourse , there is THE elephant (India) in the room

Well, I think there is no friction or hurdle between the people of two countries except the element of India which exists diplomatically.

And for your comment of what we did with Russia in Afghanistan!!

Well, Pakistan played the same role that Russia played at the time of Bangladesh. So, it can be that Pakistan took the revenge of that. But its just that our hit was a little more hard!!

And not only this during Russian Occupation of Afghanistan they had become a threat for Pakistan.

And I thank you a Billion for telling Pakistanis that our country brought down the ex-super power.. Becuase if it will be from the mouth of a Pakistani then the reply would be that Pakistan was just playing as a puppet in the hands of US!!!

 

[pmukherjee]

Well, I think there is no friction or hurdle between the people of two countries except the element of India which exists diplomatically.

And for your comment of what we did with Russia in Afghanistan!!

Well, Pakistan played the same role that Russia played at the time of Bangladesh. So, it can be that Pakistan took the revenge of that. But its just that our hit was a little more hard!!

And not only this during Russian Occupation of Afghanistan they had become a threat for Pakistan.

And I thank you a Billion for telling Pakistanis that our country brought down the ex-super power.. Becuase if it will be from the mouth of a Pakistani then the reply would be that Pakistan was just playing as a puppet in the hands of US!!!

1. All that USSR did during the 1971 conflict was to prevent USA and China from upping the ante in Pakistan's favour and in so doing, let the events in south Asia play themselves out. They kept out the US Task Force 74 led by USS Enterprise, part of the Seventh Fleet from the Bay of Bengal by sending a couple of nuclear submarines after them.

2. Your role in the Afghanistan episode was more hands on and direct, you let USA use you and your territory to achieve its strategic goals. Once the business at hand was concluded, the Americans promptly left, leaving you to clean up the mess, which you are doing till today.

3. And don't fool yourself, Pakistan did not bring down the superpower. USSR was brought down by its own internal contradictions. If the US could survive Vietnam, so could the Russians survive Afghanistan. After all, Vietnam devastated the US far more than Afghanistan did to USSR.

 

[deckingraj]

People here somehow think by improving relations with Russia it will block everything to India which is a mere fantasy.Indo Russian Relations are too strong to be effected by Pakistan.We did the right thing to Soviets after all they played a huge rule in 71 fiasco and they paid the price on it.Today Soviet Union does not exit anymore.

This would be a very simplistic view.... USSR was bound to break, AF war resulted in it to break a little earlier...Actually the fall of Berlin War was symbolic, the problem or solution was in place much earlier...

Few links you might wanna read upon...

The Collapse of the Soviet Union
Why Did the Soviet Union Break Up | Why Guides

In short AF war did soviet union is big over statement....


Regarding your second point about Russia will block everything to India is very true, however understand one thing that US cannot simply sell everything state of art to India and deny the same to you and still manage to have good relations with you...right??? So in short if you had good relations with Russia they would not have stopped selling state of art weapons to India but would not have blocked/stopped selling anything state of art to you....China is another potential Indian adversary yet they sell almost everything to them right???

Now if you look at the equation....the major arms supplier are ready to do biz with India

- US
- Russia
- Israel
- UK, Germany, France etc etc


However Pakistan missed on both
- Russia
- Israel

and in both the cases its your diplomatic actions(for good or for bad) that are responsible....India do have a role but to some extent....

I agree with Patriot and it's really what I am pointing to as well, namely that the Indian has little to do with relations between Pakistan and Russia - these relationships have their own logic and dynamic and the Indian is tangential to this.

Well India do have more then little role to play here however i agree with your larger point about dynamics involved...We cached in when you were making your own diplomatic gestures towards US(read anti-russia actions) and towards arab world(read anti-israel actions)....

I mean just look at the past actions...

- Pakistan poked their nose in cold war mess and went overboard with AF war...Result bad realtions with Russia....
- Pakistan poked their nose in 6 day war with Israel and results are in front of us...

Now if we compare this with India, today Egypt and Israel are friendly nations along with the whole Arab world including Palestine....Russia is our strongest partner and US joining in as well......