Russia Hikes SU 30MKI Prices Twice For India Might Be The revange That MI 35 got Elim

[Awesome]

Any other source reporting this $120 Mn figure?

 

[Dash]

Indians will have to pay $1Billion extra for scorpene submarines good move by France and Russia.

what is this now friends???

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

than russia will come close to pakistan and sell more weapons at half of price to make indians jealous

According to you,what is Russia...a dumped Gf?

They can earn profit from other deals worth billions of dollars even if India buys US weapons.

Our defence budget is around 30 billions dollars and will increase to 100 billions dollars in the next ten years....what makes you think they will sell their weapons at half the price to Pakistan?

And what makes you think they would come closer to Pakistan...incase the PAF shooting down their jets was not enough.

 

[flanker143]

than russia will come close to pakistan and sell more weapons at half of price to make indians jealous

man i am gonna die laughing !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Tshering22]

All this is nice and well explained in desiman's post, but I think we bettter start taking domestic projects a bit more seriously taking this as a cue for the future. LCA-Mk2 is still not in the news ever since HAL said it would make one. AMCA's last press release was IAF giving its specs to HAL. I think that either they've learned to keep secrets a secret, or they are doing nothing with babus sucking up all the money.

 

[flanker143]

Aircraft deals with ‘friend’ Russia costing dear

Aircraft deals with ‘friend’ Russia costing dear - India - DNA

With an astronomical 155% increase in price in three years, the Russian Sukhoi-30 fighter aircraft seem to be going the Gorshkov way.

The deal for aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov was hammered in 2004 for $974 million (Rs4,560 crore), but it was renegotiated in 2010 at $2.3 billion (Rs10,770 crore).

After the Indian Air Force (IAF) wrote to the ministry of defence expressing concern at its depleting strength and pressing for immediate purchase of 40 Sukhois-30s under the fast-track provision, which does not warrant tendering or open competition, a deal was inked with Russia in 2007 for $1.6 billion (Rs7,490 crore), that is $40 million (Rs190 crore) a piece.

Latest figures tabled in parliament, however, show that another deal for 40 + 2 Sukhois (2 are replacements for aircraft that crashed last year), to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) under licence from the Russian Federation’s Irkutsk, has been struck for $4.3 billion (Rs20,125 crore), that is $102 million (Rs480 crore) a piece.

The latest deal will make the IAF inventory 270-strong and India the largest operator of Sukhois by 2018, when HAL is to deliver the aircraft.

But the escalation in cost cannot be justified, especially since the aircraft being manufactured by HAL do not have enhanced features, such as the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar. Defence experts, in fact, are of the view that since the assembly line is in Bangalore, where HAL is based, the latest deal should have cost less.

The deal becomes even more loss-making since American fifth-generation fighter aircraft, F-35, manufactured by Lockheed Martin are priced at $100 million (Rs470 crore) a piece. F-35, an advanced stealth fighter with features such as supercruise and AESA radar, competes with fourth-generation fighters, such as Eurofighter Typhoon and the French Rafale, in Norway and Denmark for deals.

The American F-16, again made by Lockheed Martin, is competing in India for IAF’s fighter jet deal with Typhoon and Rafale.
IAF already has these four-plus generation fighters, which are awaiting clearance for upgrade in a separate deal involving Irkutsk and HAL.

The “deep upgrade” will include enhanced combat features, systems and avionics, which would increase the flight performance and keep the aircraft in service for a longer duration. The biggest feature of the “deep upgrade” is the inclusion of the AESA radars replacing the passive radars in IAF Sukhois.

The twin-engine heavy-weight Sukhoi entered IAF service in 2000 after clearance in 1997, but has not undergone any upgrade since.
(All currency conversions are based on current rate and are approximate)


so guys can now we be sure that these 42 new sukhois will have upgrade package which justifies the cost escalation to some extent ?

 

[desiman]

Good post -- but why do you think the deal includes life cycle costs ?

Life cycle costs are deduced over a period of time -- why assume the costs right now for the deal...Also IMO if you ever buy a equipment then you pay for what its worth and for spares of course -- down the course of time -- maintenance costs are added to the flyway price ! India or for that matter any country (in my knowledge) doesnt do deal based on life cycle costs. It is just factored in for future planning but is definetly not paid as a lump sum amount to the vendor.

Excuse me -- this deal is shady deal... i am not pointing out corruption ..but this deal may include money for technology that India has brought but one that cant be disclosed ( ex - maybe arihant or lca or kaveri , etc..i dont know)...

I dont believe the 102 mil includes life cycle costs !

Again i repeat, almost every Aviation related deal on this planet included LCC cost, without LCC estimates you basically have no idea how much this equipment will cost you in the longer run. The future cost of updates, maintenance, spare parts and service has to be factored into the price. Most of the time when prices for jets including LCC cost are quoted, the payment is split over a certain period and pay schedule. The most popular par schedule is the 40/40/20 where the buyer pays 40% before start of production, 40% before delivery and 20% within a set period of time. These terms can be changed to be adjusted with the estimates of the LCC forecast to allow for a more easy payment timing for the buyer. The MKI's base cost have always been around the $40-$50 million benchmark and LCC cost are always added on top of that. There is not way that the MKI will cost $102 million as a flyaway, thats how much the F-35 cost. LCC cost are always pre-paid in the aviation sector to basically not allow the vendor's to hike prices whenever they want. Budgets are tight and buyers rather decide everything upfront rather than wait for the moment. Only because of such a technique in procurement, we can set military budgets and have a accurate forecast on how much we will need this year. Yes additional upgrades not updates are extra but they are upto the buyer not the vendor. When the IAF decides to upgrade the MKI, it will be an extra charge but routine updates will be already covered in the initial sales document. TOT contracts for the MKI were done separately and are charged on a lump sum basis not a per aircraft one. Hope that answered you questions.

 

[inddef]

but then why were these deals quoted on flyaway cost earlier and why is the mrca being quoted on flyaway cost now?

 

[Archie]

Most people dont actually use there brains
So the life cycle cost is pegged at 102 million USD each
Do u guys even know what this cost is all about
Well it is the cost of Jet + the cost of mentainence over a period of 35-40 yrs + Midlife upg for the aircrafts
If u guys dont know then the Life cycle cost of 126 MMRCA IS PEGGED AT 35 BILLION USD OVER A PERIOD OF 40 YRS OPERATION
Add to that , the life cycle cost of Mirage 2000 acquired by india during the 1980s is 90 million usd
so it is nothing sensatuional

 

[desiman]

Aircraft deals with ‘friend’ Russia costing dear

Aircraft deals with ‘friend’ Russia costing dear - India - DNA

With an astronomical 155% increase in price in three years, the Russian Sukhoi-30 fighter aircraft seem to be going the Gorshkov way.

The deal for aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov was hammered in 2004 for $974 million (Rs4,560 crore), but it was renegotiated in 2010 at $2.3 billion (Rs10,770 crore).

After the Indian Air Force (IAF) wrote to the ministry of defence expressing concern at its depleting strength and pressing for immediate purchase of 40 Sukhois-30s under the fast-track provision, which does not warrant tendering or open competition, a deal was inked with Russia in 2007 for $1.6 billion (Rs7,490 crore), that is $40 million (Rs190 crore) a piece.

Latest figures tabled in parliament, however, show that another deal for 40 + 2 Sukhois (2 are replacements for aircraft that crashed last year), to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) under licence from the Russian Federation’s Irkutsk, has been struck for $4.3 billion (Rs20,125 crore), that is $102 million (Rs480 crore) a piece.

The latest deal will make the IAF inventory 270-strong and India the largest operator of Sukhois by 2018, when HAL is to deliver the aircraft.

But the escalation in cost cannot be justified, especially since the aircraft being manufactured by HAL do not have enhanced features, such as the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar. Defence experts, in fact, are of the view that since the assembly line is in Bangalore, where HAL is based, the latest deal should have cost less.

The deal becomes even more loss-making since American fifth-generation fighter aircraft, F-35, manufactured by Lockheed Martin are priced at $100 million (Rs470 crore) a piece. F-35, an advanced stealth fighter with features such as supercruise and AESA radar, competes with fourth-generation fighters, such as Eurofighter Typhoon and the French Rafale, in Norway and Denmark for deals.

The American F-16, again made by Lockheed Martin, is competing in India for IAF’s fighter jet deal with Typhoon and Rafale.
IAF already has these four-plus generation fighters, which are awaiting clearance for upgrade in a separate deal involving Irkutsk and HAL.

The “deep upgrade” will include enhanced combat features, systems and avionics, which would increase the flight performance and keep the aircraft in service for a longer duration. The biggest feature of the “deep upgrade” is the inclusion of the AESA radars replacing the passive radars in IAF Sukhois.

The twin-engine heavy-weight Sukhoi entered IAF service in 2000 after clearance in 1997, but has not undergone any upgrade since.
(All currency conversions are based on current rate and are approximate)


so guys can now we be sure that these 42 new sukhois will have upgrade package which justifies the cost escalation to some extent ?

This is basically confirming what I am saying, the cost included the LCC cost as the prices have increased in the past decade mainly due to the huge increase in service and maintenance cost have gone up in general in the industry. Cost of all jets have increased by atleast 40-60% in the past 3-4 years due to the huge shortage of trained professionals as well as parts. As aviation companies downsize and reduce production to a JIT principle, cost per aircraft will go up. Unlike in the 70's and 80's where parts where dirt cheap and service was abundant, in today's time a simple service call for tech for 1 day can cost upto $5000. There there is an increase in the price, for comparison please reference the recent F-16 deals for Turkey, the F-35 deal for Canada and the Eurofighter deals for Saudi. The prices will not make sense to you until you factor in the LCC cost. Please read the following -

OTTAWA, July 16 (Reuters) - Canada will buy 65 new fighter jets from Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) for C$9 billion ($8.6 billion), one of the biggest arms deals in the nation's history, Defence Minister Peter MacKay said on Friday.


MacKay brushed off criticism from opposition legislators who say the planes are too expensive and who question why Lockheed Martin received a sole-source contract.

"This is the best aircraft we can provide our men and women in uniform ... This is one of the largest defense procurement projects in Canadian history," MacKay told a news conference.

The C$9 billion also covers weapons, training and equipment. MacKay said media reports of a separate C$7 billion 20-year maintenance deal were wrong and said an agreement would be concluded once the jets started going into production.


Don Boitson, vice-president and general manager at Magellan Aerospace Corp (MAL.TO), said the deal should be worth more than C$1 billion to his firm over the life of the program.

"The announcement today gives Canadian companies like ourselves and the other 85 (firms) the opportunity to produce parts, and we have been and will continue for all 3,000 aircraft that are currently on order," he told Reuters.

 

[indian navy]

well better we make our own it will take time but we can save lots of thing and if we invest the money in our research we can gain lots thing and job in India

why cant we do as china doing

 

[Indian-Devil]

mere indian bhayoo yeh hum pakistani nahe kha rahe balka jo mana video lagaye hai usko phele gaur se dekh lain woh new delhi main banaye gaye hai aur aphi kay admi ki report hai woh koi pakistani nahe hai app hi ka banda hai jo yeh sab kha raha hai ka itna mehnga jet kyon kia yehi jet with weaons indian ne 2007 main 40 million main nahe lia tha han challo mehnga bhi kitna 70 million na 3 saal ma tu thek tha lakin itna ka samjh se bahaar aik exapmle deta ho agar apna corrola li thi 2007 main 1 lakh main aur kuch modification 2010 model apko 30 lakh ka milla tu app kia karenga pagal ho jayenga itna main tu apko JF 35 mil jaye jo generation ahead hai SU 30 se aur us inteview main apka apna vice marshall ka bhi interview hai usa bhi sun lijeyga main yahan ladain karna nahe aya bus sahee jo baat hai woh karna aya ho app apna logo ki bhi baat ko galata khette hai tu kia retired air chief of indian force kia pagal hai kia

Yaar kahin to ruka karo, galti se comma ya full stop kahin daal dete to thoda jyada samajh aata.
Anyway reporter simply put what they see, they are no defence experts to analyze such purchases. IAF or MoD know what they are doing and what is included in their deal.

@Desiman.. Thanks brother for such a good reply. You really smashed the reporter's story and some guys too who didnot get the actual deal from this purchase.

 

[desiman]

but then why were these deals quoted on flyaway cost earlier and why is the mrca being quoted on flyaway cost now?

There has been a recent shift in the MOD to make aircraft cost including the LCC cost public for more transparency of the process. Please refer back to my thread about Indian modernization where I posted the new doctrine for the MOD. The MRCA is not a deal as of yet, if you look at the upcoming events, once the 2-3 final vendors are chosen, they will take part in another round of pricing negotiation where the LCC cost will be estimated and a final cost will be attached to each aircraft. Therefore the whole amount sanctioned is also a floating amount between $10-15 billion depending on the final estimates. Perspective deals are always quoted on the flyaway cost as maintenance, service and parts varies per buyer.

 

[Awesome]

100+ Million for the Su-30MKi is outrageous

 

[Super Falcon]

in my opinion india also looks and inspect all weapons which russia have sold them might be there are some defect on them becoz russians only know about money thats all