Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi PAK FA

[saima naaz]

Thing is Russia being a friend of India dose not means it has to be a enemy of opponents of India/pakistan or vice verca .

i did not mean its friend of india and enemy of Pakistan, i just say that Russia and Pakistan relation this is good sign good for pakistan, does not Bad for any other country..

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@anant_s @Oscar
A good read.. May help few things ... Courtesy to original poster Vann7 on SAMs, Stealth plans, AWACs and radars (jets and fixed ground and mobile) all with S400 as a part scenario

• It all depends of how well you monitor the airspace..
• if all you do is deploy an S-400 unit in one place and hope to target all at any altitude as far as 400km range ,then you a re doing something really wrong. Because enemy can fly under the radar ..taking advantage of earth that is not flat.
• You need planes and awacs to improve the vision of radars ,specially at low altitudes of things that use mountains or elevated terrain as cover.

if you look at that image ,you will see there are areas that radars can't see.. when something very solid blocks the way.. either a mountain or the earth curvature at some long distance it blocks radars view on the ground. So this is why you need Radars at high altitude,ideally planes, like awacs or hellicopters with radars or planes..

The smaller the radar the smaller the area it can see at the same time.

If you ever used binoculars ,that will be similar to the radars of missiles. it can only focus in a small area.. So you need a bigger Radar to tell the missile where to go ,and the missile use its own radar only when the plane is at visual distance in the final approach.

Stealth planes are not invisible ,they only have a lower radar signature. So what that means?

• that if the S-400 can detect a plane at 600km.. something like an F-22 will only be detected using conventional radars at 100km to 200km.
• But this is only the case IF... you only had one S-400 system deployed in one place..
• if you deploy Pantsirs defenses in the front line ,at the borders of any country.. they have ultra sensitive Heat sensors that stealth cannot hide..and it will provide location of any F-22 plane as soon it enters illegally your airpace and supply that information to the S-400 unit.. so that it can engage the stealth plane ,that usually see at 100km to 200km distance.. now will see it at any distance.
• That said Stealth planes will lose its stealthiness is a zone heavily covered by many different kinds of radars. deployed across a country. and no plane will be able to hide from radars if they are setup correctly across a whole territory and have the support of Air radars ,like Awacs or hellicopters etc.
• This means that S-400s are far from the only dangerous weapon that Russian enemies needs to be worried. Things like Pantsirs are really deadly..
• even more i will say. because they have a gatling gun ,that can't be jammed, you can't jam a bullet..
• and pantsirs can operate with radars turned off and highly mobile , so you will only know where they are ,when they hit your plane.

So effectively S-400s works like a sniper rifle.. while pantsirs is like a mine. it will get you if your plane move to the wrong place where a pantsir is hiding and defending it. Imagine you entering a minefield ,that you don't know where the mines are.. and at the same time a sniper is shooting at you. Not cool.. and indeed you will not go there if you knew the place was mined with a sniper that you cant see either its position but that he can see you.

A really well defended airspace ,needs to combine long range with medium and short range defenses. An example should have S-400s + Buks/Tors + pantsirs.

The only ones the enemy will know the location are the S-400s..and they will be out of range of any enemy plane.. only cruise missiles could target long range places.. but they can be easily defeated by Pantsirs ,Gps jamming and other things.

All said is not a piece of cake to defeat a zone well covered by S-400s. not even by stealth planes ,contrary to what you have heard. And if you have a strong Airforce is even worse.. because the airforce will interrupt any enemy attempt to even try to break into your airspace.

The only effective way to defeat an S-400 is with boots on the ground..with paramilitary groups undercovertly taking territory and getting to artillery distance to your air defenses. This is exactly why Russia is bombing any terrorist position in Syria latakia ,because they represent the biggest threat to S-400s. They are not designed to operate withing artillery range of enemy positions.

It is also important to remember that S-400s are only useful if used. and you cannot measure its real performance now in places like Syria.. because Russia is not a war with any nation . not yet. So Russia rules of engagement allows foreign nations to get a bit close to S-400s positions.

The real way to measure S-400s capabilities is in a full scale war and against a modern nation with modern air defenses and airforce. thats when Russia can really keep at distance any potential enemy plane ,beyond its range of combat.
+++

 

[Joseph Goebbels]

i did not mean its friend of india and enemy of Pakistan, i just say that Russia and Pakistan relation this is good sign good for pakistan, does not Bad for any other country..

I also said the same thing but from indian prspactive.

 

[dadeechi]

I'm not sure IAF was against Su 30 ever. Infact it was IAF that was against Russian proposal of selling MiG 31.
@MilSpec sir i recall u telling a story on same about then ACM Sareen. can u share more?

FGFA story: Tale of an aircraft
19 April 2015 Vinay Shukla
By scrapping a deal for 126 MMRCA and opting to buy Rafale jets in a fly away condition under a G2G contract, the Indian Prime Minister has taken the suggestion of a Russian expert Konstantin Makiyenko, offered eight years ago, to develop and more easily procure upgraded aircraft for the Indian Air Force.

Sukhoi’s T-50 PAK-FA project won the race for the development of a futuristic –fifth generation fighter aircraft by defeating its rival MiG’s similar project. Source: Sukhoi
Prime Minister Narendra Modi cut the Gordian knot of the US $ 25 billion ‘Mother-of-all-deals’ for the acquisition of 126 MMRCA by announcing in Paris last week that India will directly buy 36 Rafale fighters from the French aviation maker Dassault in fly-away condition under a government-to-government (G2G) contract.
Simultaneously, in New Delhi, his Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar confirmed in a press interview that G2G was the best option for the acquisition of strategic weapon platforms like the fighter aircraft and the lowest bidder (L1) was decided by “questionable life-cycle cost” factor of which even his UPA predecessor A K Antony was not even so sure.
This reminds me of Defence Minister Antony’s Moscow visit in October 2007 to co-chair the annual session of India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on military-technical cooperation (IRIGC-MTC) at which the two countries had signed the agreement for the joint development of a fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), with the aim to induct the futuristic stealth fighter by 2016-17.
“Why waste so much money on an older 4th generation plane, which will join the IAF almost simultaneously with next generation FGFA and advanced version of indigenous LCA Tejas?,” Dr Konstantin Makiyenko, Deputy Director of the Moscow-based independent Centre for Analyses of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) asked.
Although Russian 4++ generation MiG-35 was also a strong contender at that time for the Indian tender, Makiyenko however, argued that it would be prudent to go for a stop-gap arrangement like buying additional Mirage 2000 and upgraded MiG-29 already in service with IAF and divert the funds on the development of FGFA and LCA Tejas to replace ageing MiG-21 fighters.
Related:

Russia and India get down to constructing test FGFA models
First series of T-50 aircrafts has entered the Russian Air Force
India, Russia to create FGFA ahead of schedule
Preliminary design for FGFA completed
Eight years later, we are coming back to the solution the Russian expert had proposed back in 2007. Defence Minister Parrikar has also not ruled out that to meet the operational requirements of IAF, India could buy more fighters along the G2G route, including additional Sukhoi Su-30MKI, which also fits in the ‘Make in India’ policy as they are already being assembled by HAL.
Very few people know the actual tale of the development of state-of-the-art multirole fighter Su-30MKI, where ‘I’ stands for India. It has been hogging the limelight ever since it was first inducted by the Indian Air Force.
But there is an interesting tale behind the birth of this warbird; how, for the first time in its history, the Indian Air Force got a fighter jet tailored to meet its specific requirements for decades to come. Not many are aware that, like deadly BrahMos cruise missile, Su-30MKI (Multirole, Commercial, Indian version), is also an embodiment of the vision and foresight of India’s ‘missile man’ and (now former) President Dr APJ Abdul Kalam, who spares no effort in reiterating his immense faith in Russia’s technological prowess.
In 1994, ahead of the Moscow visit of then Indian Prime Minister PV Narasimha Rao, Russian state arms exporter ‘Rosvorouzhenie’ (predecessor of Rosoboronexport) invited journalists for a briefing on Indo-Russian defence cooperation.
It was a challenging time for India, which was deeply concerned at the absence of critical spares to keep its fighters flying, warships cruising and tanks rolling as the Russian industrial complex lay in shambles in the wake of the collapse of the Soviet Union. Many ordnance factories had gone to the 14 independent states, which broke away from the USSR.
In this backdrop the press was told that Moscow was going to offer India its latest Su-30 fighter and the Russian government has invited a senior IAF official to discuss the issue.
An old friend, representing HAL in Moscow, argued that no such plane exists and said Air Vice- Marshal S. Krishnaswamy would be arriving to evaluate Su-27 fighter, which was the best the Soviets had developed to counter US F-15 Eagle.
Eventually, India signed the initial Sukhoi deal worth US $ 1.8 billion with Russia’s Rosoboronexport (formerly Rosvorouzhenie) State Arms Trading Corporation on November 30,1996 for the purchase of 40 Su-30K planes and development of ‘MKI’ version and its subsequent license production in India.
At that time diplomats said that it was a major departure from the ‘buyer-seller’ relationship in defence with Russia and a confident step for transition to joint research and development of cutting edge weapon systems and platforms.
It was on August 15, 2002 that I got a call from the Kremlin press office inviting me to a tour of the Sukhoi Design Bureau with President Vladimir Putin two days later. Naturally the invitation was accepted with gratitude.
Sukhoi’s T-50 PAK-FA project had just won the race for the development of a futuristic –fifth generation fighter aircraft by defeating its rival MiG’s similar project, and there was a buzz about China and India taking interest in joining the Russian project.


Defence and Security
As we were waiting for the President to arrive, Mikhail Simonov, the erstwhile chief designer of Sukhoi, who personally knew me, walked up to me and said that he would tell me the true story:
“When AVM Krishnaswamy came to our design bureau in 1994, he simply blasted our Su-27 fighter, considered the best in the West. I was very upset, given the fact that I was under probe on the alleged charges of treason for selling Su-27 fighters to China, I was rather depressed. So, I decided not to attend the evening reception hosted by the Indian Air Attaché in honour of Krishnaswamy,” recounted Simonov (1929-2011).
“However, my deputy persuaded me to go. I rang the bell of the Air Attaché’s apartment and Krishnaswamy opened the door with a welcoming smile. I saw a flower vase on a side table and was told to bring another of similar size and pour vodka in both of them. I gulped down one vase with vodka and challenged the Indian Air Marshal to follow suit, if he wanted me to come in and have serious discussions. Hats off! He did exactly what I requested and we got down to work and you see the result – the world’s best multi-role fighter. This also freed me from the ‘treason’ charges, since I invested the entire proceeds from the sale of Su-27 fighters to China for the development of absolutely new fighter with multiple roles,” he recounted.
“The Su-30MKI is the joint product of Sukhoi and IAF designers and engineers. The rich experience of joint development has enabled us to pick India as the partner in the fifth generation fighter aircraft on the basis of PAK-FA T-50 project,” said Simonov proudly, looking like a hefty Don Cossack out of (Mikhail) Sholokhov’s Nobel prize winning novel ‘And Quiet Flows the Don’ ”.
Now with the Rafale knot cut, other projects held up by it, like the FGFA, could be hastened and defence cooperation begin to gather pace.

FGFA story: Tale of an aircraft | Russia & India Report

 

[ChennaiDude]

What is your point Anyway nvm

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”
― Mark Twain

Hey!...He is just bullying you!..@Oscar .... He is an instigator, dont fall for it!..He is one of the sanest guys on this Forum..but is a sly fox....Dont get played!

 

[MilSpec]

I'm not sure IAF was against Su 30 ever. Infact it was IAF that was against Russian proposal of selling MiG 31.
@MilSpec sir i recall u telling a story on same about then ACM Sareen. can u share more?

If IAF pilots could, and was not left to pencil pushers, MMRCA would have been a thrust vectoring Mig 35 single party procurement. I think @dadeechi has gotten it absolutely wrong about the Su30MKI and Mig 29....
SU30MKI and the mig 29 aswell are absolutely adored by the IAF pilots. There have been some recent threads on CAG reports on the MKI's, and frankly i dont give a flying F what a bunch of clerks have to say about a combat aircraft system.

 

[egodoc222]

Whatever dravidian... North India ruled the south.. always has.

Lol sir!! North Indians and including mughals couldnt enter the Dravidian plateau!!

 

[anant_s]

If IAF pilots could, and was not left to pencil pushers, MMRCA would have been a thrust vectoring Mig 35 single party procurement. I think @dadeechi has gotten it absolutely wrong about the Su30MKI and Mig 29....
SU30MKI and the mig 29 aswell are absolutely adored by the IAF pilots. There have been some recent threads on CAG reports on the MKI's, and frankly i dont give a flying F what a bunch of clerks have to say about a combat aircraft system.

sir,
given Mig 29s experience both in operations and maintenance, an AESA equipped with thrust vectoring, MiG 35 would probably have been most cost effective solution for MMRCA.
It would also have covered delay in LCA and certainly with budgetary constraints.
The worst part of MMRCA misadventure probably is the fact that IAF spent good amount of time and energy, remaining sincere in its efforts for selection, only to find itself running into a Bureaucratic deadend.
And a good 12-15 years down the line finding itself in same desperate position.

 

[Taygibay]

Interesting that out of another of these paparazzi / entertainment articles came a debate on stealth and radar ( as well as one on the geography/history of Northern India. Let's treat that.

Sooner or later Radar manufacturers will develop techniques to detect VLO fighters and then if RCS advantage gets neutralized, will smaller but nimble fighters have advantage over costlier generation 5 fighters?

This is already the case, my good man! The most disruptive technology to stealth is IRST / optronic systems.
The present systems using lightwave length spectrum ( essentially cameras ) are going upward of 60 Km for
positive identification. Using Rafale as an example, the FSO is rated at 60km+ for positive ID at max range,
It so happens that the MICA and Hammer are both contained in that limit? There's a reason for that.
For now, there is no light bending cape for fighters.

The rafale and PAK-FA more, manage that in the radar spectrum but lack it in the thermal range.

Not entirely exact if true overall, dear Oscar! The Rafale has an internal cooling circuit of air ( sourced at the
boundary layer separator by each intake and at early turbine overflow ) surrounding the engines. In fact, it is
those particular solutions that make judging stealth efficiency for a given design so hard to evaluate for us.

i won't compare LCA with FGFA. the reason is LCA specifications were issued in 1985 or so

So were the Rafale's! Just sayin' ...

The only effective way to defeat an S-400 is with boots on the ground..with paramilitary groups undercovertly taking territory and getting to artillery distance to your air defenses.

Well, if we refine boots on the ground to proper intel, I'll agree. What you need to defeat any system, anti-air
or enemy AC or anything really is a firing solution. Whether that comes from an AWACS or a fighter ( be it a
jet or a human ) or yet a satellite is unimportant.
A classic tactic for SEAD is to have the system engage a target. Once it starts emitting to precise the target's
location until it can shoot it, it lights up on pretty much any modern detection tool and becomes a prey.
As a matter of fact, this is what the TEI 2015 inaugural exercise just ended was about. Which leads us to the
use for each aircraft being different according to its particular strengths, i.e. tactics book.

Someone mentioned a dogfight with an exterior agent ending it. That is very true. In fact, more dogfights were
won that way than any other. Fighter X goes BFM on fighter A. While they duel it out, fighter ∆ flies by their
engagement bubble and downs whichever is not a friend without endangering itself.
With network centric warfare, all units are part of the detection - identification - targeting loop.
That means that a demultiplier unit such as an AWACS can order any unit to fire best by assigning
targets for efficiency. It also means that modern fighters with both high awareness and fast data links
can feed solutions to each other. With all birds so equipped, the reality of air combat is different than anything
prior and complexity up many a fold.

The old sword vs shield balancing act is far from over. Good day all, Tay.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I would like to add stealth Jets are only stealthy from below and front, if the opponent Jet fly higher it can detect stealth Jet like any other ordinary jet. And because of stealth design these Jets are less agile in dig fight only their main role is bombing ground targets to make they way for non-stealthy fighters.

@anant_s
Very informative video
Aircraft Designer: Stealth is a Scam | Military.com

This video is more a criticsm of the F-35 whp has sacrificed almost all performance parameters in the pursuit of "stealth" leading to the "can't climb,can't run, can't turn" description of the F-35.

However the PAK-FA/FGFA has been designed from the ground up to keep the super-manoeuvrability Sukhois have become known for meaning in a WVR fight where stealth has been negated the PAK-FA/FGFA will still be able to hold its own. The F-22 is in a similar postion.

IAF is least interested in PAK-FA/FAGA just like they never were interested in MIG-29s or SU-30s. That is a fact. They loved mirages and now the RAFALEs. They will only get their senses back once Russia sells a squadron of PAK-FAs to Pakistan.

Nonsense, the IAF are highly invested in teh FGFA project but they are intent on getting the best possible aircraft in the long term and are not interested in cutting corners like the Russians are.

 

[SQ8]

Lol sir!! North Indians and including mughals couldnt enter the Dravidian plateau!!

Why would anyone want to. I mean I get indigestion from Vadas

It is just NOT possible that North Indians would allow or invite A Pakistani to Join them
in troubling South INDIANS

Oh they all did. They arent all bigoted small minded folk like you.

 

[Abingdonboy]

For some time i have been seeing many defence deals India is getting into like - Rafales and Scorpene subs with France, C-17, howitzers and helis with US, amphibian aircrafts with Japan, S400 and others with Russia and massive expansion of Indian Navy and many more. can anyone tell how many billions of dollars we are committing in the near future on these deals?

$330 Billion USD on defence procurments for 2014-2022.

The Increase is massive because of various factors

1 A huge back log of decisions not taken ; ie delays by Congressis

2 GOI wants to strengthen the forces ; to take care of any eventuality and not just rely on talks
ie Military action is an OPTION on the table ; if the need arises

Only Strength respects strength

3 US wants to Bring India to its side in the Asian Pivot against China
India is ready and willing because MODI is a decisive person UNLIKE MMS

That is why Modi is getting India- US -Japan on a Common Platform

4 Russia needs cash ; AND India can pay

5 France wants to become a Major Defence exporter ; India is a great market

6 Israel also offers us many good things which we need
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
e

Has anyone noticed that all of the defence deals signed by the NDA have been un-f*cking the UPA's (Antony's) mess? Very few RFPs have actually gone out, they have simply been getting India to where it should have been 4-5 years ago in terms of defence orders.

@PARIKRAMA @MilSpec @anant_s @Star Wars @Aminroop @Water Car Engineer @SpArK @nair @ranjeet @gslv mk3

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Oh they all did. They arent all bigoted small minded folk like you.

Well Since you understand Hindi You must be enjoying their Jokes
That is all to it

Come on OTHER people too have been to USA and have friends and relatives there
Hence others too know about the NRIs in USA

Indians in the USA are much closer friendlier and nicer to each other than in India

 

[Abingdonboy]

If IAF pilots could, and was not left to pencil pushers, MMRCA would have been a thrust vectoring Mig 35 single party procurement. I think @dadeechi has gotten it absolutely wrong about the Su30MKI and Mig 29....
SU30MKI and the mig 29 aswell are absolutely adored by the IAF pilots. There have been some recent threads on CAG reports on the MKI's, and frankly i dont give a flying F what a bunch of clerks have to say about a combat aircraft system.

Actually sir, I think it would have been 126 Mirage 2000-5s, that was what the IAF orginally wanted. MMRCA was never about inducintg another air superiorty aircraft.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Has anyone noticed that all of the defence deals signed by the NDA have been un-f*cking the UPA's (Antony's) mess? Very few RFPs have actually gone out, they have simply been getting India to where it should have been 4-5 years ago in terms of defence orders.

EXACTLY ; They are clearing the MESS of UPA

@Abingdonboy

Read this Procedures were more important than target in last 10 yrs: Mnaohar Parrikar | The Indian Express

This means that UPA just did nt care about the forces