Royal Saudi Navy would be interested to procure 6 FREMM Frigates from France

[As is - where is]

Oh, the exact ones that Greece was trying to buy in 2009. Then the crisis hit and our order was cut to just four from the original six. Then only two. Then the Germans called us on this and so the French tried to lease us these two. The original deal was going to cost 7 billion euros while the leasing deal would cost 200 million euros per year as far as I know. Both were too high so we told Hollande that he should wait until the crisis was over.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

You're childish assumptions is LoLing me all day long.

Awww...KSA is a secret superpower, but I'm not allowed to know.

I haz a sad.

You are nationalist. Nationalist Iranians/Israeli's/Indians/etc.. say the same thing.

 

[al-Hasani]

@Yzd Khalifa @Hazzy997

What the hell is going on man? Just leave it bros.

This means reports of the establishment of the third fleet is true.

The eastern fleet in the Gulf and the western fleet in the Red Sea was the mainstay of the RSNF for a long time, the Arabian Sea fleet means confirms Saudi Arabian intent to take a more proactive role in the region away from its borders and into enemy territory.

I don't know why this has not happened long ago? KSA is a regional power in the ME, Arab and Muslim world. We are a country in rapid development on almost all fronts that is only going to get stronger. The navy has not been prioritized rightly. In a region like the ME we need to be able to have a more proactive role and you do that often by having a strong navy.

Especailly as we have one of the longest coastlines in the world and crucial coastlines moreover. The Gulf which is home to more natural resources than anywhere else and the longest Red Sea coastline. 25% of the entire sea trade passes through the Red Sea. In my view KSA or the GCC at least jointly should be not only controlling the Red Sea but also having a firm grip on the Gulf but especially the Arabian Sea. Aside from having a influence in the Eastern Mediterranean waters too together with our friends and neighbors in Egypt and hopefully a free Syria in the future.

 

[Mosamania]

@Yzd Khalifa

Do you guys have cruise missiles for the Navy?

Yes, multiple cruise missiles are in the RSNF inventory. And stop acting like a child here, nobody will like you then, and remember being the only Palestinian here you are supposed to represent Palestine, and you are failing miserably at that.

 

[Falcon29]

Yes, multiple cruise missiles are in the RSNF inventory..

Wasn't so hard, was it?

 

[rockstar08]

Good Choice ...

 

[Gabriel92]

Good news,Hope it'll be true !

@Yzd Khalifa @Bubblegum Crisis @al-Hasani @Mosamania @JUBA

 

[Neptune]

Interesting number. Either KSA will replace the whole frigates with FREMM or it will lead to a waste of money.

Option 1 seems weird as we are talking about heavily upgraded La Fayette class multipurpose frigate variants. So not.


FREMM is a 140m long 6,000t weight frigate. Due to her armaments, she's an AWW focused ship with significant land-attack capabilities..Will it help the Kingdom?

Well, Saudi coastlines are limited with Red Sea and Persian Gulf. Note that these two waters are narrow. The Saudi La Fayette is at least a thousand tons heavier than her original base model with expanded AAW capabilities. Unlike the French LaFayette, the Saudi variant is a guided missile frigate.

FREMM is a modern air-defence frigate. 6,000t and 140m. It is called a frigate but it does have destroyer capabilities and designed to operate mainly at blue-waters. While both coastlines of KSA are belonging to green-water criteria of naval doctrines.

Having blue-waters as her playground, FREMM requires a wide range to maneuver and like most of other modern warships, her sensors, LRC design and armaments are aimed to "destroy the enemy before detected"..that is very hard to happen at green waters. And it will significantly decrease the mobilty of the ship at green waters.

So why KSA wants these?

After all these aspects, it is clear that KSA wants to maintain deterrent naval AAW assets. But all due respect, this is a wrong doctrine. Why?

Guys please look at the Red Sea and Persian Gulf on the map.

1- Sensors of a submarine works most effective at green waters against surface targets. FREMM would be an easy target regardless.

2- Area air defense in naval terminology generally refers to protection of the airspace of beyond of coastlines linked with large seas such as the Black Sea or Mediterranean. Red Sea by it's position itself doesn't require an area air defense. It would be foolish for those spending the budget. The same for Persian Gulf. In addition to PAC-3, KSA should already have ordered cutting edge long range SAM missiles...whom basically are supposed to take these two waters within their ranges.

And in addition; ASW corvettes and submarines. These are what the Saudi Navy really needs. Corvettes: modern ASW models with LRC, at least 2,200t weighted and maintains naval aircraft and hangar facilities. Submarine; sub-Harpoon and AIP capable. We know that KSA has money loaded pockets so it won't be a problem.

That's all.

This is why that decision sounded so stupid to me. I hope the money will be spent on the right strategy.

 

[Zarvan]

Royal Saudi Navy would be interested to procure 6 FREMM Frigates from France
According to French financial newspaper La Tribune Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud, Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, could sign a letter of intent (LOI) with the French Government for 6 FREMMs during his visit in Paris in early September. French Navy's FREMM multi-mission frigates are designed and built by DCNS. Five hulls have already been launched, with three Frigates delivered to the French Navy and one to the Royal Moroccan Navy.

FREMM Frigate Normandie during sea trials in the Mediterranean
Contacted by Navy Recognition, no DCNS representatives were available to comment the information at the time of publishing.

The information would confirm however that Saudi Arabia is currently seeking to increase its naval power. The Saudi Navy is currently upgrading its fleet through contracts and programs signed with the French naval defence company:
» The LEX contract relates to the maintenance of 4 Madina-class frigates (frigates 2000) and two Boraida-class replenishment oilers built in the frame of the Sawari1 program.
» The ERAV contract covers the maintenance of 3 Al Riyadh-class frigates (frigates 3000) delivered in the frame of the Sawari 2 programme.
» The AMWAJ contract relates to support to the Royal Saudi Navy in terms of spare-parts supply and technical assistance.

There were also unconfirmed rumors earlier this year about negotiations between Germany and Saudi Arabia for the delivery of a large number of patrol boats as well as submarines.

Should the sale of 6 FREMM Frigates to Saudi Arabia be confirmed, this would relieve some of the pressure on the next French defense budget (loi de programmation militaire) because part of the 6 Frigates would likely be picked from the current assembly line destined for the French Navy. Delivery of the first vessels to the Royal Saudi Navy would, as a consequence, be pretty quick.

DCNS built Al Riyadh class Frigate 816 AL DAMMAM of the Royal Saudi Navy
Picture: DCNS
Designed and built by DCNS, FREMM type Frigates are heavily armed: MM40 Blk III Exocet anti-ship missiles, Aster anti-air missiles and MU90 torpedoes. With the French Navy, the first nine frigates will predominantly conduct anti-submarine warfare missions, while the last two frigates, specialised in anti-aircraft warfare, are designed to protect a carrier or amphibious battle group against aircraft and missiles. All FREMM can also accommodate the Caïman Marine helicopter (NH90 NFH), as well as Special Forces and their equipment.

In November 2012, DCNS successfully delivered the FREMM Aquitaine, the first unit in the series of FREMM multi-mission frigates. The second unit in the program, the FREMM Mohammed VI, was delivered to the Royal Moroccan Navy on 30 January 2014.

DCNS is currently building five other multi-mission frigates in Lorient, all at different stages of advancement:

- The FREMM Normandie, third unit in the series and the second for the French Navy, started its sea trials in October 2013 and will be delivered to the French Navy at the end of 2014;
- The FREMM Provence was floated in September 2013 and will perform its first sea outing in the third quarter of 2014;
- The FREMM Languedoc was floated in July 2014;
- 2 other FREMMs are currently under construction.

To learn more: Link to FREMM Frigate (Aquitaine class) technical datasheet

Royal Saudi Navy would be interested to procure 6 FREMM Frigates from France

6 is good but you also need Submarines and Germany already refused to give you Tanks so submarines can't say for sure ? @Mosamania @Yzd Khalifa @JUBA @al-Hasani

 

[al-Hasani]

@Neptune

Don't agree with you at all.

The Red Sea is not swallow at all first of all. The average depth is 500 meters, the length 2300 km and wide about 250-300 km on average. Moreover there is a direct connection from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean Sea and also nearby open seas such as the Arabian Sea and from there on the Indian Ocean which is all the backyard of the Arabian Peninsula. You forget that we tend to look at things from an GCC perspective and when looking from that perspective we have 2000 km of coastline with an direct access to an open sea (Arabian Sea) through Oman. If Yemen one day will join the GCC that number will more than double.

PS: The surface area of the Red Sea is bigger than the Black Sea and the Red Sea is a much more significant sea strategically wise, economically wise and geographically wise.

I see no reason to why, knowing the above stated facts, that KSA cannot have both FREMM frigates, corvettes and submarines with all due respect. Our navy is badly in need of reinforcements on all fronts (been neglected far too long) and such steps are necessary to project power from abroad or in the immediate region.

 

[Neptune]

@Neptune

Don't agree with you at all.

Diversity in ideas is richness mate

The Red Sea is not swallow at all first of all. The average depth is 500 meters, the length 2300 km and wide about 250-300 km on average. Moreover there is a direct connection from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean Sea and also nearby open seas such as the Arabian Sea and from there on the Indian Ocean which is all the backyard of the Arabian Peninsula. You forget that we tend to look at things from an GCC perspective and when looking from that perspective we have 2000 km of coastline with an direct access to an open sea (Arabian Sea) through Oman. If Yemen one day will join the GCC that number will more than double.

True. The term "narrow" I used refers for the FREMM.

FREMM is in deed a very well built ship but a ship like FREMM, 6,000t 140m long. Requires a wide range for manuever and mobility. But not the psychical maneuverability...the entire ship including her sensors and armaments. Modern air-defence frigates are designed to operate at blue waters. Its not really the ship's nature.

In addition, it has land attack capabilities. Of course it will be good to have them. But why would you need that capability where you'll use these ships at your coastlines only hence they'll be used at area air defense at Saudi coasts (think again, Saudi coasts) and maybe at some counter-piracy ops Indian Ocean. That's all.

The surface area of the Red Sea is bigger than the Black Sea and the Red Sea is a much more significant sea strategically wise, economically wise and geographically wise.

Of course. But I didn't know it was bigger geographically. Thanks for informing.

see no reason to why, knowing the above stated facts, that KSA cannot have both FREMM Frigates and submarines with all due respect.

Well mate, the sea seems a sole beauty, every part of it, to a human. But in tactical, if you are going to assign a ship to a location. Not only the ships specs, but also the sea itself counts. Red Sea and Persian Gulf is widely suitable for corvettes and below. And for 3,000-4,600t multipurpose frigates. But for ships like TF-2000, FREMM, Type 45, Arleight Burke..etc. It will be their Vietnam. Because for such ships, the waters that the Saudi coastlines cover are narrow and long. Like a wide river for them. And for ships like these, it'll be a kill zone. Regards.

 

[al-Hasani]

Diversity in ideas is richness mate



True. The term "narrow" I used refers for the FREMM.

FREMM is in deed a very well built ship but a ship like FREMM, 6,000t 140m long. Requires a wide range for manuever and mobility. But not the psychical maneuverability...the entire ship including her sensors and armaments. Modern air-defence frigates are designed to operate at blue waters. Its not really the ship's nature.

In addition, it has land attack capabilities. Of course it will be good to have them. But why would you need that capability where you'll use these ships at your coastlines only hence they'll be used at area air defense at Saudi coasts (think again, Saudi coasts) and maybe at some counter-piracy ops Indian Ocean. That's all.



Of course. But I didn't know it was bigger geographically. Thanks for informing.



Well mate, the sea seems a sole beauty, every part of it, to a human. But in tactical, if you are going to assign a ship to a location. Not only the ships specs, but also the sea itself counts. Red Sea and Persian Gulf is widely suitable for corvettes and below. And for 3,000-4,600t multipurpose frigates. But for ships like TF-2000, FREMM, Type 45, Arleight Burke..etc. It will be their Vietnam. Because for such ships, the waters the Saudi coastlines cover are narrow and long. Like a wide river. And for ships like these, it'll be a kill zone. Regards.

Exactly.

Aha, that explains it. The Gulf is indeed narrow though. Although you are not far away from an open sea (Arabian Sea).

You are welcome.

I think that FREMM will work in the waters of the Red Sea but less so in the Gulf.

In my perspective it all boils down to two things:

1) KSA's navy being way below its potential strength.

2) KSA and the GCC as a whole wanting to project more power in their immediate region (Red Sea, Gulf, Arabian Sea, Northern Indian Ocean and to a smaller extent the Eastern Mediterranean). Especially now as the US seems less engaged in ME affairs.

The potential acquisition of those 6 FREMM Frigates will help such plans materialize.

Also the thing with the ME is that we don't know what can happen in 10 years time or so. Maybe by then the GCC will have merged into 1 official country and Yemen might break up into 2 parts against (Northern and the Southern) with the Southern becoming a client-state of KSA.

If KSA indeed buys those 6 FREMM Frigates I believe that this will send a signal of another vision in terms of the navy that has been neglected for way too long. I believe that different sectors of the army should have more or less a similar strength. Now take a look at our air force and compare it to our navy? The difference is huge and that should not be the case.

Moreover how do you project power in the ME or overall outside of your borders if not through a strong navy?

Lastly I am biased here as I have a weakness for navy's in general so I am always hoping for improvements on that front.

 

[Kompromat]

Very sensible choice. I do love the FREMMs.

I hope you won't mind us operating poor man's FREMM.

 

[al-Hasani]

Good news,Hope it'll be true !

@Yzd Khalifa @Bubblegum Crisis @al-Hasani @Mosamania @JUBA

Mate, can I ask how come Morocco has been the only purchaser so far? This too only buying 1 unit for about 500 million euros?

Anyway no need to cheer for now as this is just a rumor. Rumors regarding submarines, corvettes, frigates etc. purchases have been ongoing for years without any end result yet.

 

[Neptune]

I think that FREMM will work in the waters of the Red Sea but less so in the Gulf.

Yes. Technically speaking, every single ship on earth would. But it will work with half efficiency. Considering an additional capability that you would not actively even use (LACM), the AO; all the money you may spend will be gone. Not just ships like FREMM, But also every heavy, long ship both commercial and naval using that route.

In my perspective it all boils down to two things:

1) KSA's navy being way below its potential strength.

I can see that. But your king's prior focus is the air force I am guessing. In todays World, unlike ground and aerial platforms; numbers and technology are as important as each other at Naval Forces worldwide. Navy's fufure is Smart sensors, directed energy weapons and Laser CWIS.

2) KSA and the GCC as a whole wanting to project more power in their immediate region (Red Sea, Gulf, Arabian Sea, Northern Indian Ocean and to a smaller extent the Eastern Mediterranean). Especially now as the US seems less engaged in ME affairs.

The potential acquisition of those 6 FREMM Frigates will help such plans materialize.

Also the thing with the ME is that we don't know what can happen in 10 years time or so. Maybe by then the GCC will have merged into 1 official country and Yemen might break up into 2 parts against (Northern and the Southern) with the Southern becoming a client-state of KSA.

Then why not other GCC nations don't contribute. As for GCC-wise thinking, they'll need to be permanently deployed in there. Far away from KSA ports, all due respect RSN don't pose forward logistic capabilities. But it moght be supplied by the other GCC nations as well.

If KSA indeed buys those 6 FREMM Frigates I believe that this will send a signal of another vision in terms of the navy that has been neglected for way too long. I believe that different sectors of the army should have more or less a similar strength. Now take a look at our air force and compare it to our navy? The difference is huge and that should not be the case.

Mate, there's a saying of a Turkish analyst. "How the Ottoman Navy's role is important during the expendation of the Empire, is as important as that during the collapse of it.". I am a Navy guy. So I can't be objective on budget pieces but example: it was the Royal Navy if today the UK is the UK we know.

Moreover how do you project power in the ME or overall outside of your borders if not through a strong navy?

Projecting power? I smell a foreign policy . If you are thinking of projecting power over the seas of your home. You should have a threat classification first. By saying "threat", this includes your allies as well. How efficient their navies are? And how will it be in future? Whom are your competitors at int. arena? How are their navies? Then we might deploy a Saudi fleet at Mediterranean.

Lastly I am biased here as I have a weakness for navy's in general so I am always hoping for improvements on that front.

Ohh..thats a good citizen. To answer that; quotation from the Turkish Admiral of the Fleet Barbarossa during Ottoman-era:

He who controls the seas, controls the World.