Revival of ancestral links between Iranians and Kurds and Parsis picking up pace around the world

[Arian]

Where have you seen this?

Surely not IN Iran.

Eitherways, if Iranians won't revert to Zoroastrianism, who will? Kinda superfluous question no? Lol

Cheers, Doc

Definitely in Iran, and among Iranian diaspora. But that doesn't make a difference. Does it? If Muslims can convert to Zoroastrianism, why can't others?

 

[padamchen]

But that was probably because she had ordered a vegetarian Zereshk Polo and here we serve chicken with Zereshk Polo.

She was a Hindu vegetarian making the video.

We eat it with mutton usually (chicken is considered paneer, cottage cheese, by most Parsis).

Cheers, Doc

Definitely in Iran, and among Iranian diaspora. But that doesn't make a difference. Does it? If Muslims can convert to Zoroastrianism, why can't others?

Isn't there a death penalty for Apostasy in Islamic Iran?

I find this really hard to believe.

Diaspora I have personally seen scores.

No you are not Muslim as per Zoroastrian tenets.

You are simply looking at this issue from an adopted Muslim lens.

By blood and DNA you will always be a Mazdayasni.

So it (even among our most hardcore conservative traditionalists of Mumbai) will always be seen as you coming back to the path of Asha. The good faith. The Behdin.

Or in western terms, you will revert.

Cheers, Doc

 

[peagle]

Long after Jesus and Muhammad passed away, anyone can still "become" a Christian or a Muslim.

You have to be born a Zoroastrian. Or be of ancestral Zoroastrian stock and revert.

You have to be born a Jew.

You have to be born a Hindu. Or be of ancestral Hindu stock and revert.

None of these religions have the concept of someone of different blood just "becoming" a follower.

They are all ancient faiths linked to blood.

Cheers, Doc

I think you might be misinformed,

I am sure there are Jewish converts, I am sure there are also Hindu converts, blood has nothing to do with it. I'll take your words regarding Zoroastrianism because I do not know enough.

The main difference is there are no preaching and conversion movements among the Jewish and Hindu faiths. That is nothing special. There are historical reasons.

The Jews think of themselves as the chosen people, so historically have not encouraged conversions, not to say they do not welcome or reject converts. Plus, they have not been a large enough group for thousands of years to attract converts.

With regards to Hinduism, it never has been a single religion, and the Hindu idea is a very modern concept. because the lack of a unitary ideal, combined with the idea of reincarnation, resulted in there being no proselytism tradition. Although that has changed in recent times.

I do not know how you have reached your conclusions. Because they seem not to be true.

 

[Arian]

Isn't there a death penalty for Apostasy in Islamic Iran?

I find this really hard to believe.

Diaspora I have personally seen scores.

No you are not Muslim as per Zoroastrian tenets.

You are simply looking at this issue from an adopted Muslim lens.

By blood and DNA you will always be a Mazdayasni.

So it (even among our most hardcore conservative traditionalists of Mumbai) will always be seen as you coming back to the path of Asha. The good faith. The Behdin.

Or in western terms, you will revert.

Cheers, Doc

I've heard that there is, but practically, nobody cares. The way that our laws work is that you cannot be persecuted before a case is opened for you. And who wants to open a case for you? A different person cannot file such a lawsuit against you. The only way you can get persecuted is if you convert to a different religion and publicly promote it though media that can be verified independently.

So you're saying that all those people that have converted to Zoroastrianism are not Zoroastrians yet?

 

[padamchen]

I've heard that there is, but practically, nobody cares. The way that our laws work is that you cannot be persecuted before a case is opened for you. And who wants to open a case for you? A different person cannot file such a lawsuit against you. The only way you can get persecuted is if you convert to a different religion and publicly promote it though media that can be verified independently.

So you're saying that all those people that have converted to Zoroastrianism are not Zoroastrians yet?

I will post a transcript by Iranian Zoroastrians here.

I met three Iranian Zoroastrians recently at a large function I hosted. Here in India.

They still write to me.

They said their situation is very bad. The regime and its police (and goons?) simply take over the properties of people on the suspicion that they are either following Zoroastrianism in private or have reverted full time.

These are nominal Muslim Iranians I am talking about.

No I am not saying that.

A Sudreh Pooshi ceremony conducted by a qualified Mobed in front of the Atash per the traditional tenets and Zoroastrian customs, with the 5 basic Kusti prayers, for an Iranian or a Kurd or a Tajik or a Yazidi or an Azeri, is what is increasingly being done across the US, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, the UK, and many European countries (Sweden, Netherlands, Germany, Russia). And has been accepted by the tow many communities of the pan Persian diaspora.

The Parsis and the Iranis.

Hope that clarifies.

Cheers, Doc

 

[peagle]

Nope. Don't know much about Jews or Judaism so will reserve comment. Though I am pretty sure they are a blood only unit.

But Hindus I know pretty well.

Do not confuse the Hare Krishnas and the Radhaswamis and the ISKON blonde types for traditional Hinduism.

Cheers, Doc

But shouldn't you know before you comment and make a tall claim?

It's not just the Shri Krishnas, there are Hindu converts, you cannot pick and choose, it's all part of the Hinduism family.

If someone converts to the Shia sect, a Muslim cannot claim them as separate. Hinduism is a large family with a new modern identity, and various branches, if you pick and choose then you weaken your argument.

So, your initial statement seems to have been wrong.

 

[peagle]

I know what I am talking about buddy.

A Parsi sanghi living in India cannot be cross questioned by a Muslim Pakistani on Hindus and Hinduism.

Get real please.

Cheers, Doc

What are you talking about, please stick your head out of the ground.

You are a Parsi living in India, commenting on a Pakistani forum, dreaming about Iran. talk about confusing hypocritical ego.

Talk facts,
if you cannot then don't hide behind hollow silly statements.

 

[Arian]

I will post a transcript by Iranian Zoroastrians here.

I met three Iranian Zoroastrians recently at a large function I hosted. Here in India.

They still write to me.

They said their situation is very bad. The regime and its police (and goons?) simply take over the properties of people on the suspicion that they are either following Zoroastrianism in private or have reverted full time.

These are nominal Muslim Iranians I am talking about.

No I am not saying that.

A Sudreh Pooshi ceremony conducted by a qualified Mobed in front of the Atash per the traditional tenets and Zoroastrian customs, with the 5 basic Kusti prayers, for an Iranian or a Kurd or a Tajik or a Yazidi or an Azeri, is what is increasingly being done across the US, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, the UK, and many European countries (Sweden, Netherlands, Germany, Russia). And has been accepted by the tow many communities of the pan Persian diaspora.

The Parsis and the Iranis.

Hope that clarifies.

Cheers, Doc

Those people probably say those things because they want to immigrate under the pretext of religious suppression which is quite trendy these days. Your properties cannot get confiscated without a court order and a court won't even investigate your case without the formal legal proceedings and evidence of misconduct.

I used to have a Zoroastrian friend in primary school. They were doing pretty well financially.
There is no way that you can get prosecuted for your religion unless you promote it publicly, which can be verified independently. The Bahai'is have it worse than anyone else in Iran as they are officially getting prosecuted by the Iranian laws and yet I have had Bahai'i friends that lived comfortably as long as they didn't write they were Bahai'i in official documents. Zoroastrianism, Judaism and Christianity have been officially recognized by the constitution of Iran.

Zoroastrians of Iran have a much better situation. I always envied my Zoroastrian friend because he didn't have to attend Islamic theology classes and he could go to the yard and play basketball xD They also have communities that help them financially or even provide them with money for traveling to different Zoroastrian ceremonies and meetings abroad.

Yeah. Although I'd say that conversion to Zoroastrianism is no longer as trendy as it was 15 years ago. Globalism has made people care less about Iranian traditions and most Iranians are becoming agnostic or atheists these days.

 

[padamchen]

Those people probably say those things because they want to immigrate under the pretext of religious suppression which is quite trendy these days. Your properties cannot get confiscated without a court order and a court won't even investigate your case without the formal legal proceedings and evidence of misconduct.

I used to have a Zoroastrian friend in high school. They were doing pretty well financially.
There is no way that you can get prosecuted for your religion unless you promote it publicly, which can be verified independently. The Bahai'is have it worse than anyone else in Iran as they are officially getting prosecuted by the Iranian laws and yet I have had Bahai'i friends that lived comfortably as long as they didn't write they were Bahai'i in official documents. Zoroastrianism, Judaism and Christianity have been officially recognized by the constitution of Iran.

Zoroastrians of Iran have a much better situation. I always envied my Zoroastrian friend because he didn't have to attend Islamic theology classes and he could go to the yard and play basketball xD They also have communities that help them financially or even provide them with money for traveling to different Zoroastrian ceremonies and meetings abroad.

Yeah. Although I'd say that conversion to Zoroastrianism is no longer as trendy as it was 15 years ago. Globalism has made people care less about Iranian traditions and most Iranians are becoming agnostic or atheists these days.

Yup. All that money comes from us. Has been for a few centuries now.

To the extent we can we get them here or settle them and find spouses for them here or abroad as well. They really are quite poor compared to us bro. Even compared to the rest of you we meet abroad. Its a study in stark opposites when Parsis and Iranis meet.

The dress. The food. The healthcare. Even the luggage the poor guys carry.

Parsis send aid to Iran not just for Zoroastrians, but for all Iranians. The most recent being the medicines and vaccines.

If we were confident of our safety, we would flood Iran with industry and technology from our diaspora around the world.

Not to mention be the bridge to join you back to the world. On our shared terms.

Remember, we nearly did it under the Shah, till the Revolution happened, and there was decades of dark silence afterwards.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Arian]

Yup. All that money comes from us. Has been for a few centuries now.

To the extent we can we get them here or settle them and find spouses for them here or abroad as well. They really are quite poor compared to us bro. Even compared to the rest of you we meet abroad. Its a study in stark opposites when Parsis and Iranis meet.

The dress. The food. The healthcare. Even the luggage the poor guys carry.

Parsis send aid to Iran not just for Zoroastrians, but for all Iranians. The most recent being the medicines and vaccines.

If we were confident of our safety, we would flood Iran with industry and technology from our diaspora around the world.

Not to mention be the bridge to join you back to the world. On our shared terms.

Remember, we nearly did it under the Shah, till the Revolution happened, and there was decades of dark silence afterwards.

Cheers, Doc

I don't know about the Zoroastrians that live in other cities (like Yazd, which is an ancient city, home to the highest number of Zoroastrians in Iran I think), but the Zoroastrians that live in Tehran are not doing any differently from others financially. They do well like other people. My friend that I told you about (in primary school, I wrongly said high school) was doing pretty well. He had a successful father and his mother worked as well (which wasn't very common in Iran at that time).

I don't know about the Parsis much. I know that they're more or less an elite community in India based on what I've heard, but Indians in general have never struck me as rich or wealthier than Iranians. Contrary to that, I have always found them very poor compared to us, even after the devaluation of the Iranian Rial.

Nevertheless, I don't think that Zoroastrianism has a future in Iran. I think atheism/agnosticism will continue to grow rapidly in large cities, and maybe only some small cities with historical backgrounds would remain safe from it. I'd say that Christianity is growing faster than Zoroastrianism in Iran, but no religion can come close to the growing pace of atheism or agnosticism.

 

[padamchen]

I don't know about the Zoroastrians that live in other cities (like Yazd, which is an ancient city, home to the highest number of Zoroastrians in Iran I think), but the Zoroastrians that live in Tehran are not doing any differently from others financially. They do well like other people. My friend that I told you about (in primary school, I wrongly said high school) was doing pretty well. He had a successful father and his mother worked as well (which wasn't very common in Iran at that time).

I don't know about the Parsis much. I know that they're more or less an elite community in India based on what I've heard, but Indians in general have never struck me as rich or wealthier than Iranians. Contrary to that, I have always found them very poor compared to us, even after the devaluation of the Iranian Rial.

Nevertheless, I don't think that Zoroastrianism has a future in Iran. I think atheism/agnosticism will continue to grow rapidly in large cities, and maybe only some small cities with historical backgrounds would remain safe from it. I'd say that Christianity is growing faster than Zoroastrianism in Iran, but no religion can come close to the growing pace of atheism or agnosticism.

Thanks for those brilliant from the ground perspectives. How many years have you been out of Iran for now?

When you say "safe" from atheism/agnosticism, do you mean that group is radical and violent in its own way like all fundamentalists? Or was it a figure of speech to denote being remote from the influence of?

And naturally Iran in general will be richer than India in terms of household earnings and general infrastructure and standard of living.

One is your population and land versus ours.

Two is the number of barrels of oil per Iranian compared to per Indian. Lol

Its a crying shame that with the same amount of oil, the Saudis are making palaces of gold, while you guys are leaving in droves for western shores, picking up any job you get. Just to get out.

Is this what you guys want for your land and nation?

Cheers, Doc

 

[Arian]

Thanks for those brilliant from the ground perspectives. How many years have you been out of Iran for now?

When you say "safe" from atheism/agnosticism, do you mean that group is radical and violent in its own way like all fundamentalists? Or was it a figure of speech to denote being remote from the influence of?

And naturally Iran in general will be richer than India in terms of household earnings and general infrastructure and standard of living.

One is your population and land versus ours.

Two is the number of barrels of oil per Iranian compared to per Indian. Lol

Its a crying shame that with the same amount of oil, the Saudis are making palaces of gold, while you guys are leaving in droves for western shores, picking up any job you get. Just to get out.

Is this what you guys want for your land and nation?

Cheers, Doc

Not much. I'm studying abroad and I'll probably return to Iran after I'm done.

No, I didn't mean that they were fundamentalists. They're more conservative than people in urban areas and as you said, they're remote from the influence of globalism. Obviously, Tehran is by far more welcoming towards foreign cultures and ideologies.

Actually, that's not true. Iranians abroad do extremely well in all spheres, particularly in the United States and Canada (which attract the majority of Iranians abroad). Iranians in Europe are also doing not bad. Most of them are students that are doing extremely well academically, although we have a fair number of immigrants who are leeching off the European welfare system as well, but even those people find generally good jobs once they learn to live in their new country.

 

[padamchen]

Not much. I'm studying abroad and I'll probably return to Iran after I'm done.

No, I didn't mean that they were fundamentalists. They're more conservative than people in urban areas and as you said, they're remote from the influence of globalism. Obviously, Tehran is by far more welcoming towards foreign cultures and ideologies.

Actually, that's not true. Iranians abroad do extremely well in all spheres, particularly in the United States and Canada (which attract the majority of Iranians abroad). Iranians in Europe are also doing not bad. Most of them are students that are doing extremely well academically, although we have a fair number of immigrants who are leeching off the European welfare system as well, but even those people find generally good jobs once they learn to live in their new country.

I find your pessimism about Zoroastrianism in Iran a little surprising though, because it does clash with what some of you (on this very forum) have told me off the forum.

Maybe different perspectives.

But if the much touted recent survey is even partly true and the pretty decent sampling indicative of your population as a whole, then 8% Iranians "identifying" as Zoroastrians already works out to around 7 million Iranian Zoroastrians in Iran.

Our hidden sources put the current number at 10 million.

Lets say both of these are wrong. How about 5 million Zoroastrians in Iran TODAY under the oppressive Mulla regime?

Thats nearly as many as the Kurds we have reverted in the past 10 years since we started doing it actively.

Zoroastrians being a blood based faith has NEVER been about numbers. We have NEVER chased non Zoroastrians to try and get them over. Its about Quality and not Quantity for our ancient faith.

We are so kattar (Hindi for hardcore) that even if a Zoroastrian woman bears a child of a non Zoroastrian, per our tenets, once the blood has mixed in utero, the woman ceases to be a Zoroastrian.

That should give you some idea of what lengths we go to.

Anyways, I'm calling it a day for now, so I'll not shock your Gen Z Euro sensibilities further but leave you with this passage ....

Conversion in Iran

The view expressed in well-informed sources is that the Zoroastrian community in Iran does not encourage or accept converts. The World Zoroastrian News Network website carried an article in October 2008 stating that the Tehran Moobedan Organization (Anjoman Moobedan Tehran), in a letter to Zoroastrian anjomans and organisations in Iran, mentioned that “Zoroastrians in Iran can not let anyone convert to Zoroastrianism”. The report would further indicate that non-Zoroastrians can attend two celebrations but require legal permission from the government: Tehran Moobedan Organization (Anjoman Moobedan Tehran) in a letter to Zoroastrian anjomans and organizations in Iran pointed out clearly that they can let non-Zoroastrians who are interested in Zoroastrian ceremonies, attend two Zoroastrian celebrations. According to this announcement these two Celebrations are “Mehrgan” and “Sadeh”. This announcement also mentions that Zoroastrians in Iran can not let anyone convert to Zoroastrianism and attending the ceremonies should be with legal permissions issued by the right governmental organizations. In the Mehrgan Celebration that was recently held in Tehran-Iran, some non-Zoroastrians were present (‘Non-Zoroastrian Iranians Can Attend Two Zoroastrian Ceremonies’ 2008, World Zoroastrian News Network website, 7 October http://wznn.blogfa.com/post-62.aspx – Accessed 15 January 2009 – Attachment 6).

A leading member of the Zoroastrian community in Yazd is quoted in a 2003 article for The Boston Review stating that conversion is not possible. The article also mentions that the Iranian Zoroastrian community is “tightly knit and closed”, and that the Iranian Ali Jaffery initiated the tradition to allow converts: While Islam is aggressive in proselytizing itself, it bans, by punishment of death, the conversion of Muslims into other faiths. Making matters more complex for those Iranians looking to return to their “original faith” is that the faith itself does not seem to want them. “There can be no conversion into our religion,” says Sohrab Yazdani, a leading member of the Zarathusti community in the city of Yazd, home to most of Iran’s surviving Zarathustis and their religion’s sacred sites. Having lived as a persecuted minority for more than 1,300 years, Iran’s Zarathustis have formed a tightly knit and closed community. Few want to risk incurring the Iranian government’s wrath at a time when President Khatami has eased many of the serious discriminations their community has endured for centuries. Complicating the theological landscape is the notion that being Zarathusti, like being Jewish, is a matter of birth, not conversion. Any challenge to this closed community of faith is fiercely rejected by most Zarathustis in both Iran and India. The one movement to convert Iranians and others into Zoroastrianism, started by an Iranian named Ali Jaffery, has run afoul of both the Islamic authorities in Iran and the mainstream Zarathusti community.

Caught between their current religion, which won’t let them out, and their desired religion, which won’t let them in, some Iranians are believed to practice Zoroastrianism in secret. But if some take this risk, virtually none are willing to talk about it (Pocha, J. 2003, ‘Iran’s other Religion’, The Boston Review, Summer, Vol. 28, Nos. 3 – 5 http://www.bostonreview.net/BR28.3/pocha.html – Accessed 15 January 2009 – Attachment 7). Similarly evidence from a 2007 interview with the founder of the European Center for Zoroastrian Studies based in Belgium, Dr. Khosro Khazai, would indicate that converts are turned away from Zoroastrian centres in Iran and discouraged from converting: We receive 500 to 600 letters a month from those who want to become Zoroastrian. They, at first, go to the centers in Tehran, Yazd and Kerman but are normally not accepted there and are not even allowed to enter the centers. They say that the born Zoroastrians do not help them to become Zoroastrian. This is understandable because of the current Iranian government policies. The government in Iran, fearful of the increasing number of the Iranian people adopting the tradition of their ancestors, has put a lot of pressure on the Zoroastrian centers not to allow Iranians become Zoroastrian. …Every night of the week until 1h30 AM. I am at my computer replying to people’s letters received mainly from Iran (‘An Interview with Dr. Khosro Khazai: Founder of the European Center for Zoroastrian Studies’ 2007, European Centre For Zoroastrian Studies website, 6 August http://www.gatha.org/english/articles/000290.html – Accessed 21 January 2009 – Attachment 8).

Iran’s diverse peoples: a reference sourcebook by Massoume Price also provides information on this topic. He states that while the Zoroastrian community does not accept converts, some Iranians “declare” themselves to be Zoroastrian and that there do exist “unofficial organizations of the new Zoroastrians, with little connection to the old established associations”: They do not accept converts, but since the revolution they have become very popular; many Iranians, including some Bahai’s declare themselves to be Zoroastrians, and there are some unofficial organizations of the new Zoroastrians, with little connection to the old established associations. Their traditional symbols have become very popular among Iranians, especially the youth…They have built new temples in Shiraz, Isfahan and Ahvaz. Many have moved to Europe and North America, and Zoroastrian temples and associations exist in many major cities on those continents (Price, M. 2005, Iran’s Diverse Peoples: A Reference Sourcebook, Santa Barbara, California, ABC-CLIO, pp.317-318, Google Books website http://books.google.com.au/books?id=gzpdq679oJwC&pg=PA317&lpg=PA317&dq=zoroastr ian+practise+OR+ceremony+OR+private+%22in+tehran+%22&source=web&ots=yA73DyZ 8xj&sig=6sK5TnAq7RPD1HU0Ih9JZjVNbiQ&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&c t=result – Accessed 9 February 2009 – Attachment 23).

A loss of faith with the mullahs [in government] has led to a loss of faith in the religion,” says Azar Bharami, a lawyer and women’s rights activist in Tehran. “When the government does not respect the [line] between religion and state how can people?” Numerous surveys, including one by the magazine Asr-e Ma (“Our Era”), have shown that most Iranians under the age of 25—who make up 50 percent of the overall population—consider themselves agnostic. Many young Iranians are cynical, even derisive, about their religion. Epithets like “mad mullahs” and “this thing Islam” are not uncommon. At a time when many Iranians feel violated by the religious and political extremism inflicted upon them, but remain powerless to act against it, romantic allusions to ancient Persia offer hope.

Evidence of popular fascination with Iran’s Persian heritage is everywhere. Stone carvings, paintings, and pictures of Persepolis adorn the walls of many homes, office buildings, and restaurants. In dusty bus stations across Iran’s desert towns, transport companies have painted Farohars on the sides of their sandblasted buses. Savvy marketers have also begun to tap into the trend. The newest model of the locally made Peugeot sedan in Iran has been branded Pars (Persepolis) and consumer products with names like Parsian line the shelves of Iran’s tiny street stores. “Iranians are trying to discover who they really are,” Bharami said. “They feel shamed by their government and let down by their religion . . . they want something to believe in.” What remains mostly unsaid—not least because saying it could invite a death sentence—is that the increasing interest in Iran’s pre-Islamic past is also fueling an interest in its ancient Zarathusti religion. “If we were allowed to convert religions, millions would convert [back] to Zarathusti,” a middle-aged Muslim man in Tehran told me. “I challenge the government to allow conversion out of Islam for even one day.”

Ushta te.

Cheers, Doc

 

[LeGenD]

Caution: This thread is bordering religious sensitivity.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

This thread by now has more posts then probably the population of Parsis. I checked and Pakistan has just over 1000 and India 20,000 most of whom are over 60 years of age. With migration and below replacement level TFR the community is near extinction so I can't see it being able to revive anything. As of now it is more of exhibit than anything of substance.

@padamchen @Arian