Revealed: The LCA Tejas That The IAF Has Chosen

[SQ8]

"Joe Shearer, post: 8418989, member: 15420"nasty can be said about Tejas.

Lots can be found if one has the knowledge for it.

Agreed but better late than never. For a project of such magnitude to achieve success, you need support of both Bureaucracy and Services. Clearly one of them or either were always lacking in this project, we can only hope things will improve over time and I must say there was never a better atmosphere than the present for Tejas to serve the country.

Lets hope so. The platform design is a neat pocket M2k which was always the wish. Sadly, the mismanagement has led to a product that never seems to work even with the more often than not statement of "IOC today" or "Squadron formed".

 

[R!CK]

Lots can be found if one has the knowledge for it.

If someone intends to, what is there in this planet that cant be bashed upon or pointed fingers at. I think it is only human to find more faults than good of things that belong to others.

Regardless, JF-17 and Tejas will always have a special place in the hearts of Pakistanis and Indians. Hopefully over time, people will learn to see more good than bad.

 

[DesiGuy1403]

Lets hope so. The platform design is a neat pocket M2k which was always the wish. Sadly, the mismanagement has led to a product that never seems to work even with the more often than not statement of "IOC today" or "Squadron formed".

Not Mismanagement but intentional mismanagement.
Defence acquisitions in India is a major contributor to corruption. with kickbacks freely available in previous regimes, it is hardly surprising Tejas was mismanaged.

Who would want home made fighter when there is a lot to loot from phoren maal..!!

Fortunately the current regime is more strict and hence we are seeing the renewed push for Tejas and hopefully something much better will come out, on the knowledge gained on this.

 

[SQ8]

If someone intends to, what is there in this planet that cant be bashed upon or pointed fingers at. I think it is only human to find more faults than good of things that belong to others.

Regardless, JF-17 and Tejas will always have a special place in the hearts of Pakistanis and Indians. Hopefully over time, people will learn to see more good than bad.

The issue is not finding fault with the items but implementing a proactive strategy to fix the underlying core issues of mismanagement and corruption.

 

[R!CK]

The issue is not finding fault with the items but implementing a proactive strategy to fix the underlying core issues of mismanagement and corruption.

Corruption will never disappear, in India or anywhere else. I sincerely hope atleast mismanagement erodes off the system eventually.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Lots can be found if one has the knowledge for it.

Believe me, people have seen only the tip of the iceberg. But the nasty bits are overwhelmingly authored by the air force, not by the developers, who were doing this for the first time. There was not only no participation, no cooperation by the air force, they actually retarded the process with specification creep. To a lesser extent than the Indian Army, there was biased and prejudiced analysis of preliminary, pre-flight results. One of the major concerns was about the use of composites; there was a great deal of hostility towards using this, on the grounds of "If it is so useful, why aren't the French/ the Americans/ the British/ the Russians using it?" A staple defence of bureaucrats, in uniform or out.

The hero of the grudging acceptance, warts and all, was a man called Philip Rajkumar. He was ruthless with fictitious or with exaggerated complaints, and used his reputation as a straight-talking tough officer to ensure that the first prototype flew. After that, the initiative for criticism, having moved on from material suitability, passed from the aerodynamics and flight control system people to the maintenance experts. They were effectively answered by changes in technology*, and the initiative has now passed to a third set of people, who focus on the carrying capacity and flexibility of the aircraft, and set bars far higher than their predecessors had set for the induction of other aircraft types. One way to look at this is to say that we have learnt from our mistakes and are raising the bar. There are other ways of looking at it.

Trust me, if it were not a serious matter, there are issues that might shock this forum. For instance, the mud in fuel intake lines coming from a certain factory in India. Let sleeping dogs lie.

*Since you mention aircraft maintenance, the worst, most difficult to maintain aircraft were the Soviet aircraft. Brilliant in flight and bitches on the ground. Support was abysmal; not only were parts supplied to wrong specification, they were very often not supplied at all. Documentation beggared belief; manuals were in Russian. A lucrative contract was executed for the translation of the entire MiG series, and for the conversion into SGML. Other problems arose out of maintenance. One very difficult part to work on was the ejection seat.

[Off topic]
As always, the biggest danger to the Indian Army is not the Pakistan Army, or even the PLA; it is the Indian Army. And so too for the Indian Air Force and Indian Navy. From reports emerging from defence courses and theoretical studies, in a conventional war, there is nothing to hold back the Indian military from straightforward victories, and some very surprising results emerged from war gaming on the Tibet frontier.

This is ironic in the context of the fact that General K (he was a Major General then, and this was before 1962) and another officer, whose name I forget, war gamed China against India, and K won all three times. On one occasion, he actually used the Baillie Trail.

P.S.
Just remembered the other man's name - S. P. P. Thorat. Thorat gamed the Indian side, K gamed the Chinese. He won all three rounds.

 

[Bossman]

Just to explain it a little more further brother, SOP of Certification & Testing process is to have all emergency services on stand by until a system is deemed reliable and passes all QC. The Tejas picture was clicked while being tested for its Hot refueling certification. The F/A-18 picture was clicked during a routine Hot refueling procedure.

The attached picture is a hot refueling certification process for US Navy LCS 1 - USS Freedom for MH-60S Sea Haw helicopters they are intended to carry.

This is not unique to military aviation, even civil aviation has strict requirements to have emergency services on stand-by during tests until Certification is achieved

Hope it clears your question. Good Day!

I don't think LCA is being hot refueled, those are not fuel lines but rather cable to the omnipresent Auxilary Power Unit. In some of my earlier post I have said that LCA is maintenance hog, now Indian media is saying the same. For God sake even the composite panels are not interchangeable between. Is it a engineering product or some sort of a handicraft.

On the topic of corruption, the whole "make in India" is scam to route defense business to the big Indian business houses like Reliance and Mahindra, I.e the people who brought Modi to power.

 

[DesiGuy1403]

On the topic of corruption, the whole "make in India" is scam to route defense business to the big Indian business houses like Reliance and Mahindra, I.e the people who brought Modi to power.

I am sorry but can you explain what the scam is though?

Make in India is about generating money and employment in India. Combine this to get decent equipment to defence forces, I can't understand how this move is anything but good overall..

May be you think instead of business houses like Reliance, TATA, Mahindra and co, we should give these defence contracts to AAP and Congress.

I mean, why encourage the most powerful companies in India to invest their money to generate jobs and wealth for India?? That's insane, right?

 

[Hulk]

The Spares can lie right next to the aircraft and it wont matter because it will take fifty minutes to do a job that could be done in 15 like a maintenance friendly jet such as a F-5

I think while there is work on fixing some of the problems idea was to not delay the induction too much. These aircrafts can be used to get IAF focus on flying training aspect. The future aircraft coming slow will give them time to fix some of these issues even before 1A. So agree there is maintenance issue with these but when we will have 80 odd aircraft. These 4 having issue will not matter much.

 

[SQ8]

Believe me, people have seen only the tip of the iceberg. But the nasty bits are overwhelmingly authored by the air force, not by the developers, who were doing this for the first time. There was not only no participation, no cooperation by the air force, they actually retarded the process with specification creep. To a lesser extent than the Indian Army, there was biased and prejudiced analysis of preliminary, pre-flight results. One of the major concerns was about the use of composites; there was a great deal of hostility towards using this, on the grounds of "If it is so useful, why aren't the French/ the Americans/ the British/ the Russians using it?" A staple defence of bureaucrats, in uniform or out.

The hero of the grudging acceptance, warts and all, was a man called Philip Rajkumar. He was ruthless with fictitious or with exaggerated complaints, and used his reputation as a straight-talking tough officer to ensure that the first prototype flew. After that, the initiative for criticism, having moved on from material suitability, passed from the aerodynamics and flight control system people to the maintenance experts. They were effectively answered by changes in technology*, and the initiative has now passed to a third set of people, who focus on the carrying capacity and flexibility of the aircraft, and set bars far higher than their predecessors had set for the induction of other aircraft types. One way to look at this is to say that we have learnt from our mistakes and are raising the bar. There are other ways of looking at it.

Trust me, if it were not a serious matter, there are issues that might shock this forum. For instance, the mud in fuel intake lines coming from a certain factory in India. Let sleeping dogs lie.

*Since you mention aircraft maintenance, the worst, most difficult to maintain aircraft were the Soviet aircraft. Brilliant in flight and bitches on the ground. Support was abysmal; not only were parts supplied to wrong specification, they were very often not supplied at all. Documentation beggared belief; manuals were in Russian. A lucrative contract was executed for the translation of the entire MiG series, and for the conversion into SGML. Other problems arose out of maintenance. One very difficult part to work on was the ejection seat.

[Off topic]
As always, the biggest danger to the Indian Army is not the Pakistan Army, or even the PLA; it is the Indian Army. And so too for the Indian Air Force and Indian Navy. From reports emerging from defence courses and theoretical studies, in a conventional war, there is nothing to hold back the Indian military from straightforward victories, and some very surprising results emerged from war gaming on the Tibet frontier.

This is ironic in the context of the fact that General K (he was a Major General then, and this was before 1962) and another officer, whose name I forget, war gamed China against India, and K won all three times. On one occasion, he actually used the Baillie Trail.

P.S.
Just remembered the other man's name - S. P. P. Thorat. Thorat gamed the Indian side, K gamed the Chinese. He won all three rounds.

Which is why I give the military forces of the two countries befitting monikers..
India is the paper giant.. while Pakistan is the poster boy for "charge of the light brigade".

 

[Great Sachin]

U guys should also order Trucks for showcasing during parades just in case

if you would have not run away from Bahrain Airshow...you would have seen LCA taking off in 12 sec..

 

[AMCA]

It shows that this is just show that it is experimental system with flaws still being worked out

Here is hot refueling pic
clean and precise , one airman on watch

Compare this to the drama pic of yours

One with expired fire extinguisher and the other with his face covered with cap , and third lifting hands for what
There seems to a tears in the refueling probe and some pans placed underneath to stop spills from leaks , the ground gives a glimpse of the spill

View attachment 314227

lOl. An Aircraft in use by the Marines vs an Aircraft that's doing it as part of the certification has an entirely different safety standards. Now you can even make a statement that Tejas does not have the capability to retract the landing gears and cannot fly without a chase vehicle.

I must say your eyes are pretty strong to be able to read the expiry on the Fire Extinguisher.. Hahaha

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@Joe Shearer

What ever has happened in the past is water under the Bridge

Sir if there is One person and One Government who has Pushed Tejas forward and
towards induction ; it is Manohar Parrikar and this Government

IAF would not have cared ; if this project was kept languishing and then ultimately fade away

Philip Rajkumar has Long retired

Tejas needed a NEW saviour and got one in time

Sometimes leadership makes ALL the difference ( I mean PM Modi )

 

[R!CK]

I don't think LCA is being hot refueled, those are not fuel lines but rather cable to the omnipresent Auxilary Power Unit. In some of my earlier post I have said that LCA is maintenance hog, now Indian media is saying the same. For God sake even the composite panels are not interchangeable between. Is it a engineering product or some sort of a handicraft.

On the topic of corruption, the whole "make in India" is scam to route defense business to the big Indian business houses like Reliance and Mahindra, I.e the people who brought Modi to power.

Yes it may be a maintenance hog, yes it may be a handicraft, But you cant sprint before you learn to walk and I hope Tejas is where we will develop the infrastructure and industry for the future. We have relied way too much on imports, lets walk the talk and actually support an indigenous effort for once. I am from an aviation background, and trust me its one of the most demanding and difficult sectors to develop. Easy to point fingers, but really difficult to make things work.

As for the Make in India Scam, there is corruption everywhere and we have ruined our industry too much relying on public sector too much and sidelining the private industry. I'd say let them make money, as long as the country and its citizens benefit from it. The money being lost to corruption is huge and lets not use the excuse to continue our ancient approach of industrialization.

Good Day.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Which is why I give the military forces of the two countries befitting monikers..
India is the paper giant.. while Pakistan is the poster boy for "charge of the light brigade".

@Oscar
While I can comment on the design and development of LCA much better than a lot of folks who merely speculate sitting in the comforts of their room, I however wish to shed some light on corruption issue you have pointed out-There is no doubt that a lot of indian defence deals especially ones wherein a foreign vendor is involved is riddled with corruption. Notwithstanding the corruption,there are "mechanisms" in india that are much more effective and above all,AUTONOMOUS(than pakistan) in both auditing and pursuing the culprits involved in the malpractices.I am sure you must have heard of harsh CAG reports on the inefficiencies in various defence projects etc etc,Now tell me how many times have you heard of any auditing agency or investigating agency doing the same for lets say JF-17 project or any other military project of pakistan? -I expect intellectual honesty from a senior member with background in research!
As far as the R&D of tejas is concerned it was handled by ADA which thankfully is never involved in corruption,so attributing the delays to corruption is an outrageous proposition.
Since I have had the opportunity of speaking to a lot of engineers and even some pilots involved in the project,let me shed some light on the reasons for delay-I am sure this topic has been dealt exhaustively by None other than indian media,with little emphasis on nature of indian govt agencies.
1)We keep saying that it took 30 years for tejas to get inducted in IAF - this isnt entirely correct as the funding for the project was only sanctioned in 1991-1993 time frame.1984 was the year when ADA came into existence as an AUTONOMOUS body just to overlook the LCA project. Surprisingly when ADA was formed it took the best of the best people from DRDO.
Lets be brutally honest,India at that time did not have required infrastructure to even undertake a development project of this magnitude and complexity! The characteristics envisaged for LCA were too ambitious for itz time especially from india perspective- design of RSS and FBW! It took almost a decade(from early 80s to early-mid 90s) to just establish relevant infrastructure and labs to undertake the LCA project. Indian establishment at that time wanted to do everything at once- hence they undertook the R&D from radars to turbofan engines! I think it was foolishness on their part to undertake and in fact slaving engine project to LCA project. I believe that there is no harm in undertaking a research project however it shouldnt have been made contingent upon completion of another research project.A more pragmatic approach similar to swedes would have helped save a lot of time!In my opinion india could have saved at least 5-8 years had it concentrated on the platform alone and procuring the sub-systems from abroad.By platform I mean core technologies like design of wings and aircraft(and allied CFD analysis and wind tunnel testing),RSS,FBW,composites,actuators etc.Once they had mastered the platform,they could have then focused on various sub-systems like radars,various LRUs etc.Engine could have been handled later.
And I havent even touched upon the mamoth task of "certifying a military jet". The technicalities of certifying a jet,itz allied manuals were still being evolved! I am sure you would have heard of CEMILAC?What is the equivalent organization in pakistan?

2)Second reason for the delay was the embargo after our nuclear tests. A lot of critical technologies that ADA thought it could procure from west were suddenly denied - this included FBW,landing gear,composites etc etc.

3)Third reason for the delay and perhaps as solid a reason as the second one is the way govt run organizations work.This is more to do with the management of the project!
Although ADA was responsible for overlooking the project,various labs and institutes outside the purview of ADA rarely synchronized with each other.User aka the IAF wasnt actively involved in the project as late as 2006!- this is in sharp contrast to the chinese JF-17 wherein PAF pilots had an active role in deciding the flying qualities and layout of cockpit of JF-17!The work culture of ARDC(the research wing of HAL) and ADA(an autonomous body that designed the LCA) is entirely different!Kindly bear in mind that HAL is the manufacturing agency whereas ADA is the one that designed the jet.

As for the shortcomings in terms of maintenance friendliness,yes,LCA had major issues with the layout of various LRUs -this has been highlighted by many engineers from IAF and thankfully a lot of issues have been rectified. As you have correctly pointed out that it has a direct impact on turn around time for a jet.As many as 70% of issues pertaining to maintenance have been sorted out and it is far more maintenance friendly than it was lets say 6-8 years ago.However a lot needs to be done if we want to fully deploy it on our forward air bases.

What we fail to see is that,LCA has given an immense exposure to indian research establishments in designing a complex jet. The wealth of data that this project generated and the active involvement of various IITs and IISC is unprecedented. I am sure you can find a plethora of research literature pertaining to contribution of various labs and educational institutions like my own IITM,IITB,IITK ,IITKGP etc in LCA project. There is another trend that you perhaps couldnt take into account and that is,the patent footprint of HAL has increased tremendously in past 5-6 years! What does this indicate?
Now how many educational institutes of pakistan took active part in the design of Jf-17?Or what was their contribution in terms of patents filed or research produced. You see,we must be brutally honest in accepting our strengths and weaknesses!