"Replacements for deficient Su-30 MKI and MiG-29 are being processed."

[blain2]

It all depends on leadership and how they percolate values downstream. They do have terrific fliers and leadership potential but rumors are that political influence and institutional culture interference is having an impact. Their procurement process was hobbled by bureaucracy and mismanagement of projects(procurement are projects too).
Regardless of the spit shined face the Indian fanboys present here by making tall claims or copy pasting exaggerated links it is a huge mess to fix and really needs some diligent and empowered leadership to create the right impact. In some ways they do mirror the Russians in the sense they have great equipment but training standards aren’t being enforced or coordination is all over the place.

So, yes - what is helping the PAF is the IAF’s own issues. If they overcome it they will wax the floor with the PAF after day 2 of an air war.

Let’s not forget, just be sheer size, momentum and a superpower(some Indian had an orgasm) of a technology growth base in the private sector they are poised(if not focused or prepared) to start competing with China on certain aspects.

That isn’t to take away from the PAF’s own issues and personal fiefdoms delaying or sabotaging projects but I will say the PAF is ever so slightly ahead of the team/training curve vs the IAF…. For now

"If they overcome it they will wax the floor with the PAF after day 2 of an air war."

This is not happening despite whatever IAF fixes. There is a threshold in capabilities that needs to be maintained by the PAF and PAF will ensure it does that in light of acquisitions that the IAF makes.

Unless IAF becomes a major 5th generation Air Force and PAF remains a 4/4.5 generation air power, the above cannot be achieved by the IAF.

While PAF's options may be limited in terms of Western hardware for manned platforms, but given the way the air power is moving in the direction of unmanned assets and standoff attack capabilities, PAF's options open up significantly along with keeping up with other force multipliers.

Calling Russian/Soviet planes junk is quite hypocritical don't you think. The problem with IAF is not the birds but the man flying that bird. You don't have the kind of training and tactics PAF exercise for. We have F7PG which is also derived from Soviet era Mig-21 and we have never said that they are junk. The pilots that fly them know of bird's capability and the tactics required to use them effectively where as in case of IAF there is no cohesion no well thought out planning. I mean Rafael is not goose which lays the golden egg every time. In the end it is the tactics that matter not the bird. As long as IAF blames the bird it will still be a sub par air force not capable of the big leagues.

I agree but their training is good too, however sometimes the hype gets in the way of their actual potential. It isn't as if the IAF cannot do damage to Pakistan, they can and have done in the past wars, however India is not the United States and Pakistan is not Iraq. For some reason Indians think that operating against the PAF is a walk in the park (their overall size and propaganda pushes this narrative), and then the reality disproves the propaganda.

Over the past 15 years, the image of Phalcons, Su-30MKIs etc. was so over-hyped, that when it was put to test, it turned out to be sub-optimal. Perhaps these systems operated within their performance envelopes but what Pakistan had was an effective counter. Thus now the urge to move towards something different.

Pakistan has to train against a much larger adversary so we have to learn to sweat our assets much more than the Indians do. While we may not have access to the high-end technology systems, but we have access to a stable, consistent and continually improving set of capabilities with the Chinese. This along with select Western systems inducted by Pakistan and then home-grown training and interaction with foreign air forces has certainly helped the PAF however the push must continue to invest in and introduce more advanced capabilities.

 

[retaxis]

China and pakistan never underestimate their opponents and train at world class levels but never underestimate indian incomprtence and corruption. These people are happy to be ruled by foreign powers and are quite cowardly when it comes to defending their homeland.

 

[SQ8]

"If they overcome it they will wax the floor with the PAF after day 2 of an air war."

I continue to maintain that with the caveats I mentioned:
1. IAF overhaul of leadership quality throughout the organization including the training and maintenance commands

2. Streamlining of procurement process with good project management back by realistic and thoroughly vetted requirements - that automatically had a bearing on what is procured and how fast

3. More independent decision making with devolution of command - their air commands have to behave the same way USAF separate Air Force commands do.

Then its down to plain economics - India is a much more robust economy and can invest(and provided conditions are met) and glean quality and quantity faster than what Pakistan has.
Regardless of the PAF’s agility, it has a third rate economy at its back and dwindling supplier base. Sure, China today can supply pretty much everything it needs or it can try to develop it but at the end both in terms of high tech suppliers and local industrial/knowledge base IAF has access to; it will prevail if it fixes its shortcomings

 

[MilSpec]

I continue to maintain that with the caveats I mentioned:
1. IAF overhaul of leadership quality throughout the organization including the training and maintenance commands

2. Streamlining of procurement process with good project management back by realistic and thoroughly vetted requirements - that automatically had a bearing on what is procured and how fast

3. More independent decision making with devolution of command - their air commands have to behave the same way USAF separate Air Force commands do.

Then its down to plain economics - India is a much more robust economy and can invest(and provided conditions are met) and glean quality and quantity faster than what Pakistan has.
Regardless of the PAF’s agility, it has a third rate economy at its back and dwindling supplier base. Sure, China today can supply pretty much everything it needs or it can try to develop it but at the end both in terms of high tech suppliers and local industrial/knowledge base IAF has access to; it will prevail if it fixes its shortcomings

All three mentioned aspects will be extremely slow, but there are best practices being supplemented from areas that have performed well. Cant comment on leadership and command. But better project management is evident in Some areas of HAL- (Rotary division) Private players like L&T, Tata Adv sys and godrej in combination with ARDC are delivering projects at the standard industrial schedule (Translate that to breakneck given the history)..

 

[SQ8]

All three mentioned aspects will be extremely slow, but there are best practices being supplemented from areas that have performed well. Cant comment on leadership and command. But better project management is evident in Some areas of HAL- (Rotary division) Private players like L&T, Tata Adv sys and godrej in combination with ARDC are delivering projects at the standard industrial schedule (Translate that to breakneck given the history)..

It had/has to happen - people(read educated middle class) will eventually see through the boomer bureaucracy’s burden on them as taxpayers.

 

[blain2]

I continue to maintain that with the caveats I mentioned:
1. IAF overhaul of leadership quality throughout the organization including the training and maintenance commands

2. Streamlining of procurement process with good project management back by realistic and thoroughly vetted requirements - that automatically had a bearing on what is procured and how fast

3. More independent decision making with devolution of command - their air commands have to behave the same way USAF separate Air Force commands do.

Then its down to plain economics - India is a much more robust economy and can invest(and provided conditions are met) and glean quality and quantity faster than what Pakistan has.
Regardless of the PAF’s agility, it has a third rate economy at its back and dwindling supplier base. Sure, China today can supply pretty much everything it needs or it can try to develop it but at the end both in terms of high tech suppliers and local industrial/knowledge base IAF has access to; it will prevail if it fixes its shortcomings

Fair, but "prevail" means what? One has to understand that in a nuclear environment, Pakistan will NOT let IAF dominate and leave things to its own air force's destruction. There are red lines before that happens. In the space between the initiation of hostilities and a complete destruction of the PAF, we maintain a pretty strong deterrence against the IAF even if they double or triple the Rafales and introduce other force multipliers.

In a non-nuclear scenario, everything you write is applicable, case in point Israel vs. Syria. However, ours is not an Israel vs. Syria situation. There is significant force restructuring going on in Pakistan too which is keeping the Air Force relevant for the next generation of warfare against a numerically superior and high-tech equipped adversary.

Indians have always employed the best that the USSR, Russia, Britain and France could offer, against us. Now add the US to the list as well. Despite that, PAF has done well (not great but well). India's defense spending and economy has dwarfed Pakistan's for 7 decades now. So there is something to be taken away from all this. As long as there is evolution and some reliable support from friends on our end, we can hold our own.

 

[SQ8]

Fair, but "prevail" means what? One has to understand that in a nuclear environment, Pakistan will NOT let IAF dominate and leave things to its own air force's destruction. There are red lines before that happens. In the space between the initiation of hostilities and a complete destruction of the PAF, we maintain a pretty strong deterrence against the IAF even if they double or triple the Rafales and introduce other force multipliers.

In a non-nuclear scenario, everything you write is applicable, case in point Israel vs. Syria. However, ours is not an Israel vs. Syria situation. There is significant force restructuring going on in Pakistan too which is keeping the Air Force relevant for the next generation of warfare against a numerically superior and high-tech equipped adversary.

Indians have always employed the best that the USSR, Russia, Britain and France could offer, against us. Now add the US to the list as well. Despite that, PAF has done well (not great but well). India's defense spending and economy has dwarfed Pakistan's for 7 decades now. So there is something to be taken away from all this. As long as there is evolution and some reliable support from friends on our end, we can hold our own.

True, so the term prevail is being able to push towards Pakistan’s red lines. So, while they will wax the floor with the PAF the 2 days before that they will take a beating as well but prevail they will(with the previous points having been fulfilled).

To reiterate, my contention isn’t with that the military is doing whatever it can to maintain that balance or edge ahead of it; it’s constrained by the reality of Pakistan’s economic and human resource potential.

Where Indian military has masisve institutional changes implement to be completely dominant over Pakistan, it has greater resources (through the sheer size and population difference you highlighted) that when it does fix most of these issues it will blaze ahead. The military isn’t a zero sum game(and I would be aghast if they think so) so everything from Azm to providing funds for other projects requires the other half of the equation to be more than balanced.

Israel is 10 times ahead of its Arab neighbors not just because it’s human capital is embedded within major powers to fund it but that funding is used judiciously to build resources internally as well.

Where does one see that in Pakistan?
As an example all the restructuring and projects Pakistan is undertaking the Indians are doing so as well - but if Pakistan has one person familiar with the behavior of airframes in hypersonic flight they have 5 just by population and all things equal. So unless Pakistan does more than equal the maths of it just doesn’t work out in its favor.

@blain2 admitting that I am purposely giving a glass half empty picture but taking it from a holistic perspective and not just from whatever the PAF is doing or not