Reorientation And Restructuring of Pakistan Army

[muse]

Of course, education creates robust reasoning and sound judgement, but literacy is merely being able to read and write. What is worst, as demonstrated by present day Pakistan, is intentionally malicious religious indoctrination masquerading as education, made more dangerous by technical expertise in "certain" areas.

You're preaching to the Choir

 

[Irfan Baloch]

My point exactly.

It is either only technical expertise or indoctrination that the military mind imbibes, there is no real education. And yet they pretend to understand matters they have never been taught or trained in.

Why did you decide that they are pretending to understand the matters? I take it by “they” you mean the army, but they have always stepped whenever there was political anarchy and social disorder. And yes, I pray that the day be this day when no COAS decides to cease the power from our politicians that are given the birth right to lead our country by the “electorate”. I don’t think anyone will dispute with you that army is not trained in running the affairs of the state but do tell, which ones of the following are trained and qualified in this matter?

1. Mian Nawaz sherif
2. Mullah Fazlullah
3. Imran Khan
4. Zardari etc.

Plesae do tell what is their qualification? Is it money? Is it political science, sociology , journalism or LLB that decides that someone should lead the country? Well incidentally GHQ has the JAG branch for that matter? Do I hear that you are pointing towards the support of thousands of followers the above leaders enjoy? Well so did the military dictators.

Madam, I think you and I understand each other's points quite well.

Do share with us ordinary folks.

So, as long as the Army acts as a commercial venture to enrich itself, it is okay? All for "welfare" of course.

You got any suggestions in the private/ public sector to do that for the army? Do you suggest someone from PIA or Pakistan railways to run these ventures? Or would you rather we import some of the “bankers and city workers of New York and London” to do that for us?

Why don’t you start a petition and we all sign it requesting the banning of all commercial ventures of the army and sacking all the tens of thousands of civilians in those factories, mills, schools and banks and then hand them over to the Pakistan steel mills management or Itihad foundry? Might as well submit it to Ifitkhar Choudry he is very “keen” on the military anyway so we will have this issue resolved once and for all.

And yet, the end result of all these noble intentions is that the Army is effectively a holding company possessing businesses, hotels, shopping malls, insurance and transport companies, banks, farms, and is hugely into real estate development, altogether conducting over 21 billion dollars of business annually, most of it hidden from any scrutiny or oversight.

Its time you find something more interesting and incriminating against the army which might be worth changing, repeating the criticism of military’s involvement in the commercial ventures sounds like a broken record now because you have made your point already.
And no, the inept and corrupt management of the public sector is not the justification for all these ventures.
So what do you suggest? Should the perks and previlages of all the officers be taken away and brought down to the level of the Taliban commanders? Well last time I read that even their foot soldier is getting Rs. 32K per month and their field commanders are getting many fold. Would you like to comment on that too or would you rather keep your head and neck together?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Everyone is going for one point while ignoring the rest of the so many other posts which are much much more important compared to the one being discussed.

Kiyaa kehnaaa.

its "Mr truth hurths" only, who seems to be giving more weight to the commerical ventures of the army

I was interested in the new radical structure the author mentioned and also the modernisation of the military to make it move mobile, tactical and technically savvy but that never took off as fouji foundation and army public school seem to be stuck like a fish bone

 

[VCheng]

very true,
Hence, physics and mathematics are a must have. Officers with only fine arts have very limited avenues available in the different branches of the army.

True, but please also include: Computer Science, Network management, and all related disciplines. The nations with the smartest geeks and nerds will win all future wars.

 

[VCheng]

its "Mr truth hurths" only, who seems to be giving more weight to the commerical ventures of the army

I was interested in the new radical structure the author mentioned and also the modernisation of the military to make it move mobile, tactical and technically savvy but that never took off as fouji foundation and army public school seem to be suck like a fish bone

Please consider this as my contention:

As long as the Army is involved in these lucrative commercial ventures, the command structure cannot change since it benefits so much from the status quo. The mobility and technical savvy that you wish for is no more than more and more military toys, all justified by instilling fear of one enemy after another.

 

[TaimiKhan]

its "Mr truth hurths" only, who seems to be giving more weight to the commerical ventures of the army

I was interested in the new radical structure the author mentioned and also the modernisation of the military to make it move mobile, tactical and technically savvy but that never took off as fouji foundation and army public school seem to be suck like a fish bone

A certain section of a certain choir on this forum is more interested in the commercial venture facts compared to the other thought provoking factors mentioned by the writer,and this interest is to satisfy the army bashing egos of theirs, as they are not interested in anything else to discuss what the writer has written as it does not satisfies their egos to bash the army. So no matter what you tell to this section of the choir, they are gonna keep singing to their own tune.

Anyway, hope we on the other hand can start discussing the more important factors told by the writer and see what is being implemented and what needs to be done based on the resources we have and by looking at the threats we face.

 

[VCheng]

You're preaching to the Choir

That may be, but I fear the fat lady is about to sing, figuratively speaking, on this tragicomedy called Pakistan.

 

[VCheng]

........................
Anyway, hope we on the other hand can start discussing the more important factors told by the writer and see what is being implemented and what needs to be done based on the resources we have and by looking at the threats we face.

Resources: need more and more, six times more than education and health put together, and it ain't enough.
Threats we face: India, plus anything else can scare our population with, or that will get us "faarunn ayde".

 

[TaimiKhan]

Resources: need more and more, six times more than education and health put together, and it ain't enough.
Threats we face: India, plus anything else can scare our population with, or that will get us "faarunn ayde".

Did i said we need more resources ?? Don't think so. So instead of taking it out of context, it meant how to allocate resources and from where. it does not necessarily means more resources be allocated. By the way, Rs.100+B is allocated to education, and this year only the defence budget is reaching the Rs.500Bn mark, so the ratio is 1 to 5 minus the health budget, which if added would further decrease the ratio, so no idea from where you got the six time figure.

And instead of bringing in the defence budget, why don't you mentioned or should i say criticize the Rs.300B+ losses by the 8 big public enterprises which if even reduced to half would result in 150B more funds for education and health. Why not criticize or atleast mention the Rs.250-300B potential by putting agri income tax, or the 600-700Billion per year corruption in the FBR, or why not mention the hundred of thousands of people who have lot of money but not in the tax net which itself can generate something more then 200B. Even if half of what i mentioned is gotten into the revenue stream, it generates into nearly 1 trillion Rs, roughly something like 11+ Billion US$$ per year.

I wonder why not guys like you look at this picture which is much larger then the defence budget ??

I have never seen you mention or criticize what i told above, why just military budget because mentioning agri income tax, corruption in FBR, getting the rich in tax net, reducing losses of PSEs does not satisfy the ego ??

 

[muse]

Taimi

Can you expand on the piece by the retired brigadier -




Quote
The concept of a pentangular organizational structure may be examined for adoption in the Army instead of the present triangular one. This entails having five brigade groups of five battalions each. Lahore/Sialkot Corps areas can be looked after by one such Combat HQ each. The strength ratios for other sectors can be worked out separately. There is no requirement for a division HQ in such a setup. The pentangular organizational structure is already in place to an extent in 10 Corps.

Cadrize one battalion in each brigade within holding divisions. Cadre. Cadrize the fourth infantry company in a Battalion. Even the last bastion of the British orthodoxy, the British Army has only three infantry companies in a battalion now. Quetta has the largest number of General Officers in Pakistan after Rawalpindi. A senior officer is also a catalyst for development in his area as because of his seniority he can pull lots of developmental efforts in his direction. By sending the two GOCs to Loralai and Khuzdar and creating a ‘Mekran Military District’ at Turbat, half the Balochistan problems will be solved besides achieving much better interaction with local population.
Special Forces:*It is the future of warfare, properly employed they yield results out of proportion to their numbers. At least one commando battalion can be created in every infantry division without

Wastefull Organizations:* Artillery Divisions, HAT, LAT in particular referring to the HAT and LAT battalions. If you recall that till the reorganization of the 60’s the Anti-Tank Regiments were part of the Corps of Artillery. The Infantry should have only two components i.e. the Light Infantry or the Mechanized Infantry
The remaining nomenclatures are just semantics. I visualize the anti-tank assets presently held with the LAT battalions be handed over to other infantry battalions of the formation thus augmenting their anti-tank resources. These units should be converted to light commando battalions on the pattern of US Rangers battalion in every division. Similarly the HAT elements if required to operate independently may be reorganized into independent companies to be attached with independent brigade groups.

Balochistan:*Quetta has the largest number of General Officers in Pakistan after Rawalpindi. A senior officer is also a catalyst for development in his area as because of his seniority he can pull lots of developmental efforts in his direction. By sending the two GOCs to Loralai and Khuzdar and creating a ‘Mekran Military District’ at Turbat, half the Balochistan problems will be solved besides achieving much better interaction with local population.

Teeth to Tail Ration:**
Maximum manpower of Army, Navy and PAF should be converted into teeth. Israeli Army IDF’ ratio may be taken as an example. It is felt that we have a very heavy tail employing a large number of officers and men on administrative tasks at the cost denuding these resources from operational tasks.
The large Army in waiting for a war in EME, S & T, and Medical units may be reduced. As an Independent Brigade Commander, I had almost 200 strong Infantry Workshop Company (EME) doing the job what 10-15 persons would be doing in the private sector. Similarly huge establishment of RV & FC needs new challenges in not becoming an unnecessary burden in this modern era. Most of their present tasks can be better performed by the private sector. Similarly, you may consider doing away with the ‘Ghori Paal Murabba’ and other such schemes, which are of no operational consequence and instrument of oppression for the allotted.

Manpower Issues:**
GHQ:**It should be right sized, 50% officers and staff should be cut down to be employed the field areas. Over a period of time it has become a dumping place for officers wanting to settle down in Rawalpindi/Islamabad area. A lean and thin organization will always produce better results that a overstaffed one and at the same time not suffer from confusion created by too many officials.

The ISI:**It also needs to be reduced to a size where quality and efficiency should be criteria for stay. It should not become a repository of officers waiting to serve in Islamabad & Rawalpindi.

Down Grading of Appointments:**A large number of appointments were upgraded in last 10 years to appease senior officers. They should be brought down to a natural level.

Civil Armed Forces.
Deployment of CAF for IS duties:**The CAF’s were taken out of their primary role of border surveillance and put on IS duties in Sindh. Additional troops were raised subsequently as the requirement kept on growing. Later their role in this field was extended in Punjab also. A large number of Army officers commanding troops in such roles have to do ‘public dealing’ like the police or magistracy for which they are neither trained nor required to do so. The recent cases in Karachi and Quetta are indicative of our own ill-preparedness for such roles. It is felt that with raising of additional ‘Elite Police Force’ the CAF’s can go back to their traditional role of guarding the Nation’s frontiers.

HQ CAF’s:* There is no coordinating HQ for the CAF’s in Pakistan unlike the BSF in India.* To have a uniform policy, guidelines and interaction with Ministry of Interior and GHQ the HQ CAF may be raised. It was under rasing in 1977 with Major General Amir Hamza as the 1st*Commander when the Martial Law was proclaimed by General Zia-ul-Haq. Both this HQ and FSF were disbanded.

Officers Deputation to CAFs:**There should be 2 streams, 1st*after 5 years of service in the Army followed by permanent absorption in CAF Cadre 2nd*after approximately 17 years of service in Army for officers who do not make the grade in the Army but still have potential for a 2nd*line service.
PAF/Navy Officers Induction to CAF:**Regular officers of the other Services may also be given an option to serve in the CAFs.*These Officers particularly with SSG training can act as value aided asset.

Deputation in ANF:*The arrest of 2 Majors in Lahore for the murder of an under trial person is a clear indication of the Army’s unpreparedness for such roles. As I was the persons who raised the ANF Punjab, I am fully aware of the pitfalls these officers were exposed to and at one time even recommended either their permanent absorption in the ANF cadre or its handing over to the Police officers who are trained for such jobs. It may also be borne in mind that a large number of Army officers in ANF are exposed to dealing with foreigners (Drug Liaison Officers) on daily basis which needs to be avoided at all costs.

Federal Security Force (FSF):** It was raised by the late Prime Minister of Pakistan Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto in early seventies but was disbanded by the Martial Law regime of General Zia-ul-Haq in 1977 being considered as forces countering the Army. Such a force maybe re-raised to take the burden of internal security from the Army and the CAF’s.

Training Institutions

 

[VCheng]

Did i said we need more resources ?? Don't think so. So instead of taking it out of context, it meant how to allocate resources and from where. it does not necessarily means more resources be allocated. By the way, Rs.100+B is allocated to education, and this year only the defence budget is reaching the Rs.500Bn mark, so the ratio is 1 to 5 minus the health budget, which if added would further decrease the ratio, so no idea from where you got the six time figure.

And instead of bringing in the defence budget, why don't you mentioned or should i say criticize the Rs.300B+ losses by the 8 big public enterprises which if even reduced to half would result in 150B more funds for education and health. Why not criticize or atleast mention the Rs.250-300B potential by putting agri income tax, or the 600-700Billion per year corruption in the FBR, or why not mention the hundred of thousands of people who have lot of money but not in the tax net which itself can generate something more then 200B. Even if half of what i mentioned is gotten into the revenue stream, it generates into nearly 1 trillion Rs, roughly something like 11+ Billion US$$ per year.

I wonder why not guys like you look at this picture which is much larger then the defence budget ??

I have never seen you mention or criticize what i told above, why just military budget because mentioning agri income tax, corruption in FBR, getting the rich in tax net, reducing losses of PSEs does not satisfy the ego ??

Firstly, for direct spending, please see:

How Countries Spend Their Money -

View attachment 8916

Once the indirect and hidden allocations are taken into account, my figures are very close to reality.

Secondly, I do criticize the corruption in the civilian sector as well.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Firstly, for direct spending, please see:

How Countries Spend Their Money -

View attachment 8916

Once the indirect and hidden allocations are taken into account, my figures are very close to reality.

Secondly, I do criticize the corruption in the civilian sector as well.

As per your figures provided in the webpage:

Pakistan uses 7.8 of its yearly expenditure on education & 1.3 on health, making it 9.1 going to both sectors. Right ??

Then on military it uses 23.1 of the yearly expenditure. Right ??

So, if i do simple calculations: 23.1 / 9.1 gives me 2.5, meaning Pak spends 2.5 times more on military then what it spends on education & health, not the 6 times as you had said.

Even if you add the hidden things, it may reach the 3.5 figure, still much less then the 6 times figure you quoted.

And no Sir, i haven't yet seen you criticize others except the military. Never saw you write that what is we make corrections in our 300B loss in PSEs, or put agri income tax, or to stop the 600B+ corruption in FBR, or to put rich in tax net, etc etc etc.

The day i start seeing you give out a balanced / neutral criticism, which consists of the military as well as civilian side, i will stop criticizing you. But balanced / neutral means, if you talk about military 5 times, you should mention the civilian blunders 5 times too or 4 times will do that too , not mentioning military 10 times and civilian side just 1 time, as that will make you biased as you are currently.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Taimi

Can you expand on the piece by the retired brigadier -

Certainly Sir, as these are some of the most important ones.

The concept of a pentangular organizational structure may be examined for adoption in the Army instead of the present triangular one. This entails having five brigade groups of five battalions each. Lahore/Sialkot Corps areas can be looked after by one such Combat HQ each. The strength ratios for other sectors can be worked out separately. There is no requirement for a division HQ in such a setup. The pentangular organizational structure is already in place to an extent in 10 Corps.

This is something which has work already started to it, but at higher level so far. The formation of 3 regional commands, Southern Command at Quetta, Central Command at Kharian & another command may be Eastern one made somewhere in the Sindh region or somewhere in central punjab region. Central command is looking after Lahore, Mangla & Gujranwala corps, while Quetta would be looking at all forces in Baluchistan and the 3rd one would be of the Multan, Bahawalpur & Karachi corps hopefully, with the rest Corps making the reserve formations. Similarly, on Div level, there are Divs which have more then 3 Brigade strength structure, depending on the requirements of the area it is deployed in, similarly there are Brigades which are having more then 3 infantry battalions strength. So in some instances the perpendicular formation style is being used, we also have independent divisions and armor/mechanized Brigades for special purposes.

But we need to study such organizational setup more in comparison to where such structure are required to be deployed against the enemy. We should bring in more innovation by taking the example of the Indian RAPID or the US army Combat Brigade structure,where the Brigade is a mixture of infantry, mechanized, armor, artillery and support units structure, meaning it becomes a small army in itself. Such brigade should have its own Air Defence in the shape of MANPADS issued to all the battalions, be it infantry, armor or artillery. Similarly they should be equipped with good Anti Tank weapons. Such a Brigade should be able to handle all the threats itself instead of giving the responsibility to HAT or AD companies or units for a specific area.

Cadrize one battalion in each brigade within holding divisions. Cadre. Cadrize the fourth infantry company in a Battalion. Even the last bastion of the British orthodoxy, the British Army has only three infantry companies in a battalion now.

I don't see what benefit that would hold, if by cadrize the author means to reduce. If the writer is talking about perpendicular structure and removal of LAT & HAT formations and merging them into normal infantry battalions and as per my suggestion giving MANPADS to normal infantry, mechanized & armor units, then these infantry battalions may need more manpower to be fully armed. And i say,we take out this holding div concept and arm to the teeth all the formations, so that all are properly equipped and can fight on their own.


Contd .......

 

[VCheng]

As per your figures provided in the webpage:

Pakistan uses 7.8 of its yearly expenditure on education & 1.3 on health, making it 9.1 going to both sectors. Right ??

Then on military it uses 23.1 of the yearly expenditure. Right ??

So, if i do simple calculations: 23.1 / 9.1 gives me 2.5, meaning Pak spends 2.5 times more on military then what it spends on education & health, not the 6 times as you had said.

Even if you add the hidden things, it may reach the 3.5 figure, still much less then the 6 times figure you quoted.

And no Sir, i haven't yet seen you criticize others except the military. Never saw you write that what is we make corrections in our 300B loss in PSEs, or put agri income tax, or to stop the 600B+ corruption in FBR, or to put rich in tax net, etc etc etc.

The day i start seeing you give out a balanced / neutral criticism, which consists of the military as well as civilian side, i will stop criticizing you. But balanced / neutral means, if you talk about military 5 times, you should mention the civilian blunders 5 times too or 4 times will do that too , not mentioning military 10 times and civilian side just 1 time, as that will make you biased as you are currently.

Those are only direct expenses, that I gave for comparison with other countries, so that the relative national priorities are shown in a visual form.

According to The Economist figures: "The armed forces eat up 16% of the government’s budget, whereas education gets 1.2%."

View attachment 8917

Combined with the health budget, and taking indirect and hidden costs into account, my statement is correct.

And please keep in mind that your notion of what is balanced may not be the same as mine.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Those are only direct expenses, that I gave for comparison with other countries, so that the relative national priorities are shown in a visual form.

According to The Economist figures: "The armed forces eat up 16% of the government’s budget, whereas education gets 1.2%."

And please keep in mind that your notion of what is balanced may not be the same as mine.

Same as usual. I still remember the day, you calling RD-93 as a Chinese engine and i think you still believe that to this day.

By the way, the education to military budget ratio is not reported properly in majority of cases. The comparison is done on the Federal Budget level as studied by me.

The real budget should be calculated by adding the education budget provinces allocate, which added to federal makes something close to 115-120B in this year budget i believe so if my figure is correct.

I have seen many times where only Federal Budget figures are used to quote such huge disproportion.

So, as said, military budget is not the primary cause for education and health getting low budgets, its primarily due to the inefficient & ineffective governance of the civilian leadership. As said above, even if they are able to reduce to half the Rs.300B+ losses of the 8 big PSEs, you can have 150B additional for health & education. And even the PSE blunder is majorly the creation of the civilian leadership. Why not ask the govt to stop wasting money on the BISP and fund education & health with the Ts.60B or so funds. Why not ask the govt to tell how one single MNA costs more then Rs.25-30Million per year. Anyone asked how much benefits they enjoy, leaving aside the ministers of something like a 100 figure. Then add to them the provincial members. Have you ever gone to ISB ?? MNAs have more security compared to what a Lt Gen gets. Why not ask the govt to stop wasting huge money on security and divert it to education & health.

And yeah i can see what notion is balance in your view, have been seeing for months now.