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Religion is a private matter of an individual: DG ISPR

The nature and scope of CPEC is just gigantic...

It is the biggest public project in the history of Pakistan
It is one of the top 10 or top 20 public projects in the history of China

either the Culture of Pakistan would have changed China by the end of it
OR
the culture of China would have changed Pakistan by the end of it

This is perhaps the most omnious thread in the history of PDF

in 10 years there will be either massive explosion of atheism in Pakistan or the biggest explosion in the growth of Islam in China since the Guangzhou Massacre

@jbgt90

Have a look at the stream; I hated it when I read it, but am reluctantly beginning to believe that what he has just written is as good as it might get.
 
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https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-china-is-turning-back-to-confucius-1442754000

https://www.ft.com/content/f9d40450-e84e-11db-b2c3-000b5df10621

https://www.economist.com/news/chin...ent-philosophy-support-confucius-says-xi-does

Grab a drink of choice and read ... and search smarter next time as the sources I've quoted are not some small western secular media outlets that are missed easily ... one shouldn't need to spoon feed a hardcore secularist think tank like yourself on such sources!

more?

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2017/03/china-love-confucius-170328144603740.html


Confucianism has no God or belief in afterlife..you can check that with Chinese posters and Wikipedia..It is more of a comprehensive system of ethics and morals
 
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Is Mrs.COAS from the Ahmedi community?

@Khafee

Sir, I don't want to respond to that - not my place to do that - but I do want to ask you if you have encountered the names Iftekhar Janjua or Akhtar Hussain Malik.

My point is entirely related to military history and has little to do with religion.
 
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Confucianism has no God or belief in afterlife..you can check that with Chinese posters and Wikipedia..It is more of a comprehensive system of ethics and morals

The discussion was not on atheism but the system shift from Secularism to Confucianism.

Confucian temples, priests, ceremonies (Inc marriage) ... Same as atheism .. really?

Wikipedia as you mentioned has this:
"Confucianism regards the ordinary activities of human life — and especially in human relationships as a manifestation of the sacred,[6] because they are the expression of our moral nature (xìng 性), which has a transcendent anchorage in Heaven (Tiān 天) and a proper respect for the spirits or gods (shén).[7]"

Anyhow it's a different topic but to say secularism and atheism are the same as Confucianism would be quite rediculous.
 
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China is fast moving to Confucianism (at official/state level most importantly) and some fools here are celebrating secularism coming to Pakistan because of Chinese influence. What the!

These secular atheist preachers need to study China, first and foremost. Your whole argument is based on false assumption to begin with!
tha
Orthodox muslims, yes.
Liberal /secular muslims are liked almost everywhere.
linberal are a minority and are hated in religious countries
 
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The single biggest incident that I saw in Pakistan which has coloured my thinking on religion, Pakistani state and society was in my uncles home in Islamabad. My uncle was was the norm in that "sector" of Islamabad had army of servants. I mean the entire notion of freakin servants was alien to me. I came from a wealthy country and from a prosperous middle class family living in leafy suburb in UK. The notion of servants was what I saw in Victorian era movis or I imagined the Queen to have in Buckingham Palace.

Yet here, my uncle had about four of them. Mostly lazing about but then when the boss or "madam" [my auntie] was about they would run around like slaves. The very next morning I woke up I saw this freaking matchstick - servant girl cleaning my room. She looked like a Sri Lankan who had been starved to death. My spoilt cousins would chuck things at her and make all sort of offensive remarks - that girl just went on her work like she was deaf. Then there was a young lad about my age who was just a general "man friday". He was from village in Sargodha region. I became very friendly with him - despite our language problems. He told me he was from a poor family and he had never been to school. To see his state and juxtapose mine I felt guilty. He asked about life in England often and told me the brutal life he faced in Pakistan because of his social position and poverty. It become obvious soon my uncle and auntie resented my being friendly with him. It felt like I was devaluing them. Soon enough he told me he was told to mind his business.

Then one day my uncle came to me and told me the servant had stolen paint cans as the house was being decorated. My uncle told me he was going to call the police but since he was my "mate" he would spare him the dogs beating at hand of cops. Instead he had a choice to pack bag and leave before he came home from work. When I told the servant thie bad news the look on his face was repulsion followed by desperation followed by look that could kill. He was a stout lad and could have done damage if he let it rip. But his face turned to resignation. Then as he began to pack bags he came to me and held my chin. I pushed his hand away and told him that was a disgusting habit. He then told me he wanted to ask forgiveness. I said for what. He swore he had not stolen the pan cans but that he did not want me thinking he had done such a thing. He then hinted at that he was owed two months wages and the "sahib" had come up with this accussation to get rid of him and not give his money. Decades later I believe him. There is nothing excptional about this. this sort of inequity right now will be playing out in millions of incidents in Pakistan. And then they talk about "culture and religion".

And just for the record I am agnostic.

It seems you have a high level of scumbag'ness in your relatives. All my life, I have not seen anyone in my family (& extended for that matter) treat the maids and helpers this way or badly for that matter. Even when previous maids visit (& many do), they are always treated as old family members visiting. Marriages of many long term maids were fully paid by my parents, even gifted a house to one who was with us for 12+ years. They are all looked after and that includes free medical treatments by family doctors. Those who wanted to learn English and Urdu were/are taught at home too.

Good and bad exist in every society ...
 
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@Khafee

Sir, I don't want to respond to that - not my place to do that - but I do want to ask you if you have encountered the names Iftekhar Janjua or Akhtar Hussain Malik.

My point is entirely related to military history and has little to do with religion.
Sir, I have. My issue isn't what the religion of COAS or his Mrs, my issue was why all of a sudden, PMLN has started barking against Ahmedis.
 
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It seems you have a high level of scumbag'ness in your relatives. All my life, I have not seen anyone in my family (& extended for that matter) treat the maids and helpers this way or badly for that matter. Even when previous maids visit (& many do), they are always treated as old family members visiting. Marriages of many long term maids were fully paid by my parents, even gifted a house to one who was with us for 12+ years. They are all looked after and that includes free medical treatments by family doctors. Those who wanted to learn English and Urdu were/are taught at home too.

Good and bad exist in every society ...

Unfortunately due to not having strict laws on rights of maids or servants , most of working people here face discrimination .
What he said about the condition of maids in his uncle home is true and i have even much worse examples to witness around me .
 
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The single biggest incident that I saw in Pakistan which has coloured my thinking on religion, Pakistani state and society was in my uncles home in Islamabad. My uncle was was the norm in that "sector" of Islamabad had army of servants. I mean the entire notion of freakin servants was alien to me. I came from a wealthy country and from a prosperous middle class family living in leafy suburb in UK. The notion of servants was what I saw in Victorian era movis or I imagined the Queen to have in Buckingham Palace.

Yet here, my uncle had about four of them. Mostly lazing about but then when the boss or "madam" [my auntie] was about they would run around like slaves. The very next morning I woke up I saw this freaking matchstick - servant girl cleaning my room. She looked like a Sri Lankan who had been starved to death. My spoilt cousins would chuck things at her and make all sort of offensive remarks - that girl just went on her work like she was deaf. Then there was a young lad about my age who was just a general "man friday". He was from village in Sargodha region. I became very friendly with him - despite our language problems. He told me he was from a poor family and he had never been to school. To see his state and juxtapose mine I felt guilty. He asked about life in England often and told me the brutal life he faced in Pakistan because of his social position and poverty. It become obvious soon my uncle and auntie resented my being friendly with him. It felt like I was devaluing them. Soon enough he told me he was told to mind his business.

Then one day my uncle came to me and told me the servant had stolen paint cans as the house was being decorated. My uncle told me he was going to call the police but since he was my "mate" he would spare him the dogs beating at hand of cops. Instead he had a choice to pack bag and leave before he came home from work. When I told the servant thie bad news the look on his face was repulsion followed by desperation followed by look that could kill. He was a stout lad and could have done damage if he let it rip. But his face turned to resignation. Then as he began to pack bags he came to me and held my chin. I pushed his hand away and told him that was a disgusting habit. He then told me he wanted to ask forgiveness. I said for what. He swore he had not stolen the pan cans but that he did not want me thinking he had done such a thing. He then hinted at that he was owed two months wages and the "sahib" had come up with this accussation to get rid of him and not give his money. Decades later I believe him. There is nothing excptional about this. this sort of inequity right now will be playing out in millions of incidents in Pakistan. And then they talk about "culture and religion".

And just for the record I am agnostic.
As disgusting s your uncle's family's attitude was towards their servants, I fail to see the connection between them being tyrannical and religion?. Kindly explain.
 
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London slaves: three women freed after 30 years' captivity
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/21/london-slaves-freed-after-30-years-captivity

This should also colour one's thinking on secularism, British state and society ... yes?

@Kaptaan

'Sex slaves are on every street in Britain'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsore...11151517/sex-slave-trade-britain-streets.html

"Makela is among hundreds, if not thousands, of vulnerable people trafficked into and within the UK annually for remunerative sexual exploitation. The United Kingdom Human Trafficking Centre (UKHTC) – part of the National Crime Agency (NCA) – estimates that 2,744 people, including 602 children, were potential victims of trafficking for exploitation in 2013, an increase of 22 per cent on 2012. Slaves in Britain are most likely to come from countries including Poland, Romania, Nigeria, Lithuania, Albania and Britain itself. Latest NCA figures indicate that for child potential victims of trafficking, the most prevalent country of origin is the UK."
 
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As disgusting s your uncle's family's attitude was towards their servants, I fail to see the connection between them being tyrannical and religion?. Kindly explain.
He is pointing towards mass hypocrisy prevalent in Pakistani society.
 
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Islam came with certain ordinances. like Banning alcohol, prostitution, and stoning to death for adultery.

So there is no separation of state and religion in Islam.

During the early period of Islam, the alcohol was not banned. Before Islam, they were heavy drinkers and it was hard to quit drinking all of the sudden. So Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) gave 20 years of time frame to discourage drinking one at the time.

Even then, not laws were imposed on Muslims because if some people wanted to drink, then they could. Because no coercion is allowed whether in faith, life and general.

Stoning to death for adultery is Arab practice that has been there long before Islam came. And even after Islam came, Islam didn't impose its laws upon the already existing laws which was Arab culture.

To dispute that the stoning to death for adultery is discouraged in the following example; one man came to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) to repent for committing adultery. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) pointed that man to GOD meaning repent to GOD in private and move on. But that man was stubborn until he got his wish which was to be stoned to death as the sign of purging himself which was in spirit of the Arab culture despite advised to repent to GOD in private and move on.

The same culture that promoted burying women alive for honor during the time which also the likes of Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (R.A) did bury his daughter alive for honor killing. After accepting Islam, he repent and cried for his mistreatment to his daughter on the tombstone.

Like slavery and drinking, prostitution too was discouraged. But if one woman practiced prostitution, then it would be between her and GOD. You cannot force her not to practice since the coercion is against Islam and so is judgement which rules out imposed ruling that has nothing to do with the laws and orders.

From the birth of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) to the death of his companionship (R.A), there has never been the laws imposed upon the civilization in regards to faith other than laws and orders. If anything, they focused more the social development like welfare, family benefits, and benefits for disadvantage people.

So-called Shariah laws was coined in 8th century and imposed in 9/10 century which was the purpose of keeping the civilization in control like sheep because the civilization was multiplying thus becoming too challenging. Imposing sharia laws including blasphemy as part of the system was against Islam because Islam is against coercion and the sharia laws is all about imposing and coercion.

One of the biggest challenge was when Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (R.A) was asked to attend to Iraq as leader after the conquest of Iraq. Then, he gave his words for the Christians and Jewish dominated Iraq that no version of Islam or any faith or the matter of ideology would be imposed upon Iraq. In fact, it was declaration confirming that anyone who threatens the spirit of multiculturalism and free to practice expression whether in faith, life and general would be going against Islam, and indeed would be the biggest enemy of GOD.

So that rules out so-called no separation of faith and state. Not to mention 624 years of Sultanate System imposed by its rulers in Ottoman Empire where people from all kinds in terms of ethnicity, faith and background would be allowed to practice the freedom of speech and expression. And those eras were Golden Age of Islam which that concept gifted and lifted Western world from the depression period. During those eras, Ottoman Empire produced bundle of intellectual scientists, thinkers, philosophers, inventors and many more which some of them were heavily engaged in drinking and practiced Sodomite. If they were stoned to death, then the knowledge that we hold on to no longer be there. When western world stopped stoning people to death, only then the knowledge was spread and thus the beginning of the progressive society.


For the end time in Hadiths, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) warned about Khawarij aka Terrorists that they would try to impose their ideology against the wills of the community regardless of whether the community is Muslim or not, practice Islam in terms of character or not. And they would be from the dog-hell of fire. And the message was clear; kill them by any means necessary for they are anti-peace. And today, Khawarij aka Terrorist-outfits aka ISIS/TTP tries to impose their ideology through bombarding civilians including children and women. TTP alone is responsible for more than 100,000 including children and women in Pakistan just to further its terrorism to promote its ideology which is against Islam in the first place.

Besides, it is common sense why so-called no separation of faith and state is not aligned with Islam because Islam is against coercion in the first place. And anyone who tries to coerce especially in the matter of religion is the biggest enemy of GOD. Let me be perfectly clear; if you try to force Christian, Jewish or Hindu to convert to Islam, then you are the biggest enemy of GOD. You will be right up there along with Khawarij that belong to hell-fire.

No coercion PERIOD. It is no wonder why Arab empire flourished for so long until they imposed Blasphemy Laws in form of Sharia laws which ended their ruling immediately. Then Ottoman Empire flourished with Sultanate System that is in line with the ideology of Separation of faith and state which made inroads for the thriving multiculturalism. And that concept inspired Western world who are now successful following the separation of faith and state.

The moment any nation imposes its ideology upon the nation, and at that moment, that nation can no longer enjoy the favor of GOD. That is what i learned from those patterns. GOD only support the nations, even if it is Christian or Jewish or Hindu that promotes multiculturalism. Because GOD did create all kind of civilizations so we can get to know each other - not to impose on one to another.

Islam is plain clearer truth revealed in clear signs for the people who think and reason doesn't need defenders like you practicing coercion method which gives bad name to Islam and poor impression of A CREATOR, that created us aka mankind with Intelligent and the whole worlds
 
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