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Rebuilding Pakistan Navy Aviation.

Is the current war in the west that Pakistan is engaged in considered to be Pakistan's war? '65,'71.'99 were all Pakistan's wars in the sense that Pakistan initiated them.

My friend, are you willing to go the same route we went? -- Some ones else's war was turned into our war???? Or is it because we did it so it has to be done by you all as well!

Someone else's bogey is very soon going to be turned into your headache if you continue on this path of self destruction. And BTW you are going to pay for this whole shebang out of your noses! At least we are getting paid for this - India the great can afford to fund this adventure and the honeymoon out of its own pocket.

You hard earned money is better spent on looking after the 400M below poverty line Indians. I am sure they would appreciate it more than Uncle Sam.

Honestly, you guys should have stuck to the Ruskies - you will learn the hard way the "Way of the West!":wave:
 
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Some ones else's war was turned into our war????

But if you continue fighting WoT as some1 else's war then victory will be difficult.

Someone else's bogey is very soon going to be turned into your headache if you continue on this path of self destruction. And BTW you are going to pay for this whole shebang out of your noses! At least we are getting paid for this - India the great can afford to fund this adventure and the honeymoon out of its own pocket.

what is being referred to here? What path?

You hard earned money is better spent on looking after the 400M below poverty line Indians. I am sure they would appreciate it more than Uncle Sam.

Really!! Do they alleviate poverty in Pakistan by doling out wads of cash? There is nothing the Govt can do for the poor unless the poor help themselves and it is starting to happen. Any number of rags to riches success stories in the Indian dream.

Honestly, you guys should have stuck to the Ruskies - you will learn the hard way the "Way of the West!":wave:

:lazy:
 
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Pakistan being a defensive country does not require an aircraft carrier to support its navy its a waste of money. Although it does need to expand its marines unit from 2000 to atleast 5000 men, providing them training by the SSGN. PN should change its strategy to aquiring greater number of malgiam type corvette and 1000 ton missile boats.

I do believe they should have their own fighter wing of jets to provide air support to its ships at sea. We have 2 main bases plus malir base as well in khi, malir and Masroor bases are huge, it can be extanded a bit, an a naval wing could be constructed, which will not cost at all. Cadets pilots/ engineers ground staff will apply to join navy but all their training will be carried out at PAF training installations as per normal, after training they will pass out as naval airman etc etc from Risalpur. just like the SSGN.
PN could use more mirages they are using some right now but the number is 12 jets or so i read some where. this should be raised to at least 60 jets. This will basically take the load of the PAF, and navy will have air superiority in the arabian sea.....
 
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Pakistan being a defensive country
I doubt this claim after kargil, 1948 and 1965
does not require an aircraft carrier to support its navy its a waste of money.

Pak does require an aircraft carrier but going in for one right now is not an option considering the economic scenario.

India's naval power is increasing day by day and PN needs something to counter the NLCA, and Mig29K. Soon we will have a second carrier and in next ten years two more, making the count to three after retiring our current carrier.

Right now PN is in a lot of problem. It does not have a single destroyer, let alone an AC. It needs to redevelop itself soon. I miracle like JF-17 would help a lot. I believe the next 15-20 years would be crucial. You can make or break the navy in these years.

China would be willing to sell you some of its destroyers and in future an AC. You should go in for those. Also try some second hand destroyers for the near term.

Pakistan's trade is dependent solely on ports and in case of a war, logistical support would be cut off completely if PN fails to secure the ports. You need to get the navy some toys and soon.

Good Luck
 
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Would beg to differ from Jagjitnatt on the A/c thing. The requirement for PN's subsurface, surface and air fleet is based upon possible threats that it will have to face in case of war. He has rightly pointed out that one of them is maritime blockade of our ports. The others can be interception/inspection of cargo vessels, overall sea denial, possible naval bombardment of major ports, both by A/craft and missile. Launch of commando type raids to take out our main sea surveillance radar near Karachi. etc.

What would India use to achieve this in terms of Naval Assets? In my opinion the following:

Air carrier group for sea denial, launching attacks on Port facilities (Naval SU's/Sea Harrier), Naval blockade in conjunction with its submarines etc.

The inspection/interception of vessels can be done by both submarines and frigates/corvettes.

Hunter/killer patrols by submarines.

What would we need to counter this if we deploy on a purely defensive posture.

Our mission, in my mind, would be primarily hinged around sea denial, and escort of merchant ships/keeping the sea lanes open.

To do this we would need the following:

1. Early Warning Patrol/Maritime Recon Aircraft (This can be done through the P3c Orion -- the need is to enhance the number of planes to atleas 15)

2. Defensive line of patrol submarines for hunter killer role against surface combatants and against other hunter killer submarines. (We have the A90B's -- we need longer range submarines with more on station endurance – a total of at least 12)

3. Interdiction Standoff Strike at far ranges (both P3C Orion’s and Extended range CFT equipped or air refueled F-16 can perform this role with a range of 200 miles -- one-way range -- for f-16 c/d) We need to invest in the J-10 and its naval version to supplement and release the f-16 for Air superiority duties ASAP.

4. Patrolling of the sea lanes/trade routes should be done by Frigates (at least 14 to 16. Half of them ASW and the other half AShM equipped with short range anti missile defense weapons i.e. Rolling Airframe or similar and Phalanx etc.) This force can be supplemented by the proper use of Shipboard helos which will enhance the patrol range of these frigates and have far off ASW and second strike AShM capability.

It would also be advisable to use near shore sea lanes for the merchant vessels during the time of conflict to ensure availability of air cover for the merchant men and the escort vessel.

5. The Air threat from the carrier group should be tackled by the F-16 while conducting the sea denial patrols. Or the F-16 can provide the cover for the P3C to launch its Harpoons against the carriers/carrier group.

6. The near shore air cover of 100 to 150 miles can be provided by the Mirage Interdiction Squadron(s) at least two-- to be replaced by JF-17 with air refueling capability to ensure higher loiter time on target.

7. The second tier or defensive layer should be formed by Fast Missile boats/corvettes that currently PN lacks. We must have atleas 20 of these vessels.


All of the above needs to be tackled with improvements in the following area:

1. Development of Gawader as a "Real" Alternative port.
2. Buildup of Pak Marines as a strong quick reaction force of brigade level at least with its own organic helo support, ICMAV's, updated man pads SAM's and light artillery (Mechanized).
3. Development of Surveillance satellites. The game would be to get the first shot on the Carrier group.
4. Enhancement in strategic stocks to atleas 45 days.
5. Development of sub launched cruise missile.

The above is bare minimum. The real gap is the hunt for the hunter /killer sub groups of India as all our assets would be deployed to either hunt for surface vessels or deal with their defensive screens or escort of merchant vessels. Ideally, the surface fleet should have at least two hunter/killer ASW groups and enhanced number of submarines beyond the 12 or buy more Maritime Surveillance and ASW aircraft (This is the most cost effective option.)

The weak link in our naval doctrine, today, is the net centric capability or lack of it to gather process and assimilate all information bits to deploy a comprehensive flexible response to all types of threat dynamics. Remember, by the very nature of Naval warfare, launching a response will have an inherent lag time. Therefore, the need for “EYES & EARS”—AWACS?????

Why I am writing what I am writing??? Lessons based upon the writing on 71' (When I saw the naval blockade with my own eyes and the air raids by Indian A/c on our port facilities etc.) conflict, the Falklands war, and the overall Soviet and US doctrine on denial and use of Carrier groups during the height of Cold War. The US was really worried about the Soviet land based bombers and submarine launched cruise missiles.

My spin – cheers!!!!
 
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In my opinion:

8 OHP's
4 F22P's
4 Chinese F54
20 Fast Missile Attack Crafts (Most probably Turkish with Harpoons)
3 Fleet Replenishment Ships
8 Mine Hunters

The Type 21's can be retired in tranches of three once the first three OHP are delivered and assimilated in to the fleet.

3 A 90B Subs All retorfitted with MESMA
3 Further A90B all with MESMA (To be built in Pakistan while we wait for "Things" to happen) This is easier said than done -- lots of negotiations -- it would be wiser to peg down the Marlin deal now.
2 A70's with sensor upgrades -- relegated to inshore duties with requirment for shallower divinig depths.

The Marlin deal needs to be pegged down quickly. There is a serious gap in our undersea capability and one does not see the light at the end of the tunnel at this point in time.
 
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Wat about Milgem corvette?
And tht FT-2000?
And our 10 plus PC-3 orions with hawkeyes systems?
 
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Wat about Milgem corvette?
And tht FT-2000?
And our 10 plus PC-3 orions with hawkeyes systems?

My friend you are right. However the question was about vessels.

In my opinion we should have at least 15 orions to mount a round the clock surveillance during times of conflict. We are thankfully getting close to this number very soon. This number needs to be backed up by AEW aircrafts.

As far as the Turkish platforms are concerned, they are yet to be proven. It is one thing to build major surface vessels -- it is altogether a different thing to properly equip them and get the best out of them during times of conflict and under increasingly hostile environments.

Furthermore, I suppose that most of the critical components of the frigates would be western and would require clearance from the OEM country. This would bring a new dimension to the deal.

The construction and systems integration of a new concept platform will take a number of years.:tup:
 
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In my opinion:

8 OHP's
4 F22P's
4 Chinese F54
20 Fast Missile Attack Crafts (Most probably Turkish with Harpoons)
3 Fleet Replenishment Ships
8 Mine Hunters

The Type 21's can be retired in tranches of three once the first three OHP are delivered and assimilated in to the fleet.

3 A 90B Subs All retorfitted with MESMA
3 Further A90B all with MESMA (To be built in Pakistan while we wait for "Things" to happen) This is easier said than done -- lots of negotiations -- it would be wiser to peg down the Marlin deal now.
2 A70's with sensor upgrades -- relegated to inshore duties with requirment for shallower divinig depths.

The Marlin deal needs to be pegged down quickly. There is a serious gap in our undersea capability and one does not see the light at the end of the tunnel at this point in time.

What PN needs is three squadrons of naval figher aircraft to protect the naval assets from any aerial attack. These squadrons can be comprised of the naval version of the JF-17s. An airbase should be allocated for PN.
 
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What PN needs is three squadrons of naval figher aircraft to protect the naval assets from any aerial attack. These squadrons can be comprised of the naval version of the JF-17s. An airbase should be allocated for PN.


T-Rex; There is already one dedicated maritime strike element for PN based out of Masroor Airbase in Karachi.

Once enough F-16 or JF-17 are available, the number of maritime strike elements would be increased. This is a logical presumption. Coupled with Air-refueling capability, their operating ranges can than be enhanced.

Furthermore, some detachments would also be housed at Ormara/Gawader/Pasni etc. for wartime duties.

In my opinion there is no need for a dedicated Airbase for PN -- it just eats up into their budget -- Air force facilities (Two airbase in Karachi and other bases being upgraded on the Makran coastline to handle nighttime landings and fighter aircraft are enough) are more than adequate for the time being.:pakistan:
 
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i personallly think pn must have atleast 50 jets dedicated to naval air war becoz we have to defend from gawadar tooo and indian aircraft carrier may intrude and they will so we have reliable jets to intersept them mirages, JF 17 can do the job both air to air and air to naval roles but we neeed 50 + jets for navy and seprate air defence systems for naval bases in navy command
 
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go for J-11 guys, Thats a good fighter aircraft

Yes and add to further integration, training, maintenance, spare/inventory, nightmares!!!!! PAF has its hands full trying its best to absorb the JF-17 & Block 50/52's, SAAB Erieye, The IL76 etc. In fact there is talk of delaying the acquisition of J-10 to give time for complete integration of the existing/in-the-pipline platforms.

J-11 will just add to more confusion. No thanks, at this point in time let us stick to what we have and enhance our capability and tailor them to our mission requirments. This will also give time for our pilots to train and excell on these platforms.

Sorry, but bad idea:hang2:
 
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