Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story

[JonAsad]

 

[Safriz]

Obviously diplomats will be protected in any case..it will be shameful for the country if an embassy or occupants are harmed...But Davis is a different issue...

 

[Awesome]

Courts don't decide diplomatic immunity. If this goes to a court then it isn't diplomatic immunity.

I have never heard of this. Give me details so I can take a diplomat to court the next time he dings my car!

Case against Kamal Nath: India wants Diplomatic immunity; SFJ says Indian Democracy exposed | SikhSiyasat.net – Sikh News and Multimedia.

Attorney Gurpatwant Singh Pannun, legal adviser to the SFJ, today claimed that the issue of diplomatic immunity was decided by the court and the US Department of State could only give its recommendation. He further said the plaintiffs would resist and challenge any efforts by the Indian Government to get diplomatic immunity for Kamal Nath.

Tadaa...

 

[Solomon2]

As opposed to the desire to kill with impunity all over the world?
Why doesn't the US waive immunity?

Is there any Pakistani out there willing to contest such prejudice? That's really why you want to see Davis "punished", right? As a proxy to "punish" the U.S. for its perceived transgressions?

That is EXACTLY what diplomatic immunity is supposed to protect diplomats against. Now you know why the U.S. won't waive immunity.

The trial is so much more important than the verdict.

Under the conventions Pakistan has signed on to, which therefore also forms part of Pakistan's own laws, any legal proceedings are going to have to take place without the presence of the immune diplomat and without him being subject to any penalty other than being declared persona non grata and expelled.

 

[VCheng]

They didn't step in when the Long March was heading to besiege the Shahra-e-Dastoor. What will they do? Fire upon its own people?

I hope it does not come to that, but it has happened in the past, no?

 

[JonAsad]

Under the conventions Pakistan has signed on to, which therefore also forms part of Pakistan's own laws, any legal proceedings are going to have to take place without the presence of the immune diplomat and without him being subject to any penalty other than being declared persona non grata and expelled.

Thats the issue here--
Raymond Davis does not have immunity-


Foreign Office Concludes Raymond Davis Is Not A Diplomat

ISLAMABAD: The Foreign Ministry has concluded that Raymond Davis, the American killer of two Pakistanis, is a non-diplomatic staff member of the US Consulate, who was given a certain level of immunity but not absolute immunity, it is learnt.
A reliable source in the Foreign Office confided to The News that official documents have proved that the American killer is not an accredited US diplomat but is a “non-diplomatic staff” of the US embassy.
The source said despite being a non-diplomatic staff, Davis was notified in January 2010 to have been enjoying diplomatic immunity, explained that the immunity offered to Davis is not absolute. The absolute immunity, it is said, is offered to only a few key members of the mission.
Davis, who is presently being probed by Punjab police following a remand given by the Lahore district court, was in possession of a diplomatic passport with a “business official” visa. He told police that he is serving as technical advisor in the US embassy.
The Foreign Office sources clearly say that there is a lot of difference between absolute immunity and the limited-one that is given to non-diplomatic staff like Raymond Davis.
Absolute immunity under the Geneva Convention, these sources said, is offered to selected members of any foreign mission. The limited-diplomatic immunity is given to otherwise non-entitled members of the mission but on the request of the sending country.


Foreign Office Concludes Raymond Davis Is Not A Diplomat,

 

[ashok321]

The trial is so much more important than the verdict.

The trial wont see the light of the day.
GOP cant keep the yank for more.
US has all the reasons to work for thier own country`s interests - which means they want RD back home where he belongs. On the other hand Pakistan is free to persue its ow interests by setting him free and keep the status quo (PAK-US relation), or put him on trial to please the awam - and in the process loose the goodies and invite the US ire, which means cut off the flow.

Mantra for Pakistan: Better safe than sorry!

 

[Awesome]

Is there any Pakistani out there willing to contest such prejudice? That's really why you want to see Davis "punished", right? As a proxy to "punish" the U.S. for its perceived transgressions?

I want to see him tried as a proxy to LIMIT the US's transgressions. If there is a problem with my perception, then no harm done to you right? Just don't send your so called killer diplomats to Pakistan.

You are mixing up trial with sentencing, just to position yourself a victim. It's a double murder case, don't mix up immunity from "dinging a car" to immunity from killing.

That is EXACTLY what diplomatic immunity is supposed to protect diplomats against. No you know why the U.S. won't waive immunity.

Diplomatic immunity maybe, but in that case its accorded to high level people not IT technicians. If Manter had killed two people he could claim immunity, your tech support guy? No. This is EXACTLY why Immunity is not given to just about anybody, the people are expected not to be killers.

Under the conventions Pakistan has signed on to, which therefore also forms part of Pakistan's own laws, any legal proceedings are going to have to take place without the presence of the immune diplomat and without him being subject to any penalty other than being declared persona non grata and expelled.

Go read Pakistan's FO Manual, it clearly states consular staff would be given non-diplomatic status. This is the law under which the US is keeping its people in Pakistan. By entering and staying in Pakistan it is accepting that there is no immunity to consular staff.

Then go read the Vienna Conventions, where it clearly states that non-diplomatic staff would be accorded immunity in all things related to their job function "except from civil and administrative judicial procedings of the receiving state".

Next repeating mantra, please?

 

[Solomon2]

Case against Kamal Nath: India wants Diplomatic immunity; SFJ says Indian Democracy exposed|SikhSiyasat.net – Sikh News and Multimedia.

Attorney Gurpatwant Singh Pannun, legal adviser to the SFJ, today claimed that the issue of diplomatic immunity was decided by the court and the US Department of State could only give its recommendation.

Never heard of this. It appears that Mr. Pannun is only offering his opinion of the law without citing any support from the Vienna Convention or examples of previous cases.

 

[Awesome]

I hope it does not come to that, but it has happened in the past, no?

Hmmmm according the piece CNN did, in which they featured Defence.pk website as well, there were numerous commentaries stating that the army would stand up against Musharraf when asked to fire upon its own people. That is where they will draw the line.

That video might be available here:

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

 

[Awesome]

Never heard of this. It appears that Mr. Pannun is only offering his opinion of the law without citing any support from the Vienna Convention or examples of previous cases.

It doesn't mean its not happening, Kamal Nath has already been summoned to a US court for a hearing TOMORROW:

US reviewing immunity for Kamal Nath in 1984 Sikh riots case | ummid.com

By the US's own standards a precedent already exists.

 

[VCheng]

Hmmmm according the piece CNN did, in which they featured Defence.pk website as well, there were numerous commentaries stating that the army would stand up against Musharraf when asked to fire upon its own people. That is where they will draw the line.

That video might be available here:

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

With all due respect, the army leadership will likely follow a line drawn with someone's else influential input in this particular case, I suspect.

 

[JonAsad]

Since Davis was Members of Administrative and Technical Staff as declared by USG-- this is relevant-

Members of the administrative and technical staff of a diplomatic mission perform tasks critical to the inner workings of the embassy. Accordingly, they enjoy privileges and immunities identical to those of diplomatic agents in respect of personal inviolability, immunity from criminal jurisdiction, and immunity from the obligation to provide evidence as witnesses .

Their immunity from civil jurisdiction, However, is quite different . Members of the administrative and technical staff enjoy immunity from civil jurisdiction only in connection with the performance of their official duties.

This is commonly known as official acts or functional immunity and is explained in more detail in the section below addressing consular privileges and immunities. Like those of diplomatic agents, the recognized family members of administrative and technical staff enjoy the same privileges and immunities from the host country’s criminal jurisdiction as their sponsors . Since these family members have no official duties to perform, they enjoy no immunity from civil jurisdiction.

Diplomatic anD consular immunity: GuiDance for law enforcement anD JuDical authorities
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[Solomon2]

The Foreign Ministry has concluded that Raymond Davis, the American killer of two Pakistanis, is a non-diplomatic staff member of the US Consulate, who was given a certain level of immunity but not absolute immunity...A reliable source in the Foreign Office confided -

This is not an official statement.

 

[Awesome]

With all due respect, the army leadership will likely follow a line drawn with someone's else influential input in this particular case, I suspect.

Given the fact that Kayani already pressed upon Rehman Malik to investigate the matter thoroughly, it doesn't seem like they are complicit with the United States in this case.

However, if the scenario of the much talked about Egyptification does take place and centers around the American mission's activities, they will be given safe passage out of Pakistan.

I am repeating again and again, the intent (of the Pakistani people) is not to see American blood (Shumaila's statement can be excused since she is the bereaving party with a husband killed and well she's dead too now), the intent is to free Pakistan from America's grips.