Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story

[Bang Galore]

If the case of immunity is complicated, or is not established, courts have all the say in it.

Actually they don't. This is a matter to be decided by the foreign office, not courts. This is a dangerous game that is being played, a resulting corollary using your argument would be for the American court trying a case wherein the present & former ISI chiefs have been named to, by your rule determine that they are liable regardless of the fact that Pakistan claims immunity for them. There will be no joy for Pakistan, going down that street.

 

[The HBS Guy]

We really frown on arguments conducted through videos. You can post a link to the video as a source supporting your argument, but please summarize whatever argument is being made in the video and tell us at what point in the video the argument is made.

If I watched every video posted on this forum to support some argument or the other, that is pretty much all I would be able to do all day.

So please redo your post keeping the above in mind.

This applies to everyone - do not use videos as support for your argument unless you follow the above instructions to go with it.

Fair enough.

Basically in the video, Mr. Najam Sethi, a senior Pakistani journalist, produces before camera, a letter written by US State deptt. dated sometime earlier before RD had arrived in Pakistan.

The purpose of RD's visit is stated to be 'Official Business' with the US embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan.

Pakistan accepted that letter and granted RD the permit to visit.

Later on, Pakistan extends the permit while RD is still in Pakistan and the earlier permit has expired.

This clearly, points out that Mr. Davis indeed enjoys diplomatic immunity.

That's what the video is about, in a nutshell.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

As far as other details are concerned, they can all be proved.

You don't seriously think it's difficult for the US to make/create documents, do you?

The first and foremost thing is diplomatic immunity of Mr. Davis which I find difficult to doubt the existence of.

ISLAMABAD: The Foreign Ministry has concluded that Raymond Davis, the American killer of two Pakistanis, is a non-diplomatic staff member of the US Consulate, who was given a certain level of immunity but not absolute immunity, it is learnt.

A reliable source in the Foreign Office confided to The News that official documents have proved that the American killer is not an accredited US diplomat but is a “non-diplomatic staff” of the US embassy.

The source said despite being a non-diplomatic staff, Davis was notified in January 2010 to have been enjoying diplomatic immunity, explained that the immunity offered to Davis is not absolute. The absolute immunity, it is said, is offered to only a few key members of the mission.

Davis, who is presently being probed by Punjab police following a remand given by the Lahore district court, was in possession of a diplomatic passport with a “business official” visa. He told police that he is serving as technical advisor in the US embassy.

The Foreign Office sources clearly say that there is a lot of difference between absolute immunity and the limited-one that is given to non-diplomatic staff like Raymond Davis.

Absolute immunity under the Geneva Convention, these sources said, is offered to selected members of any foreign mission. The limited-diplomatic immunity is given to otherwise non-entitled members of the mission but on the request of the sending country.

To a question if a non-diplomatic staff given limited-diplomatic immunity can be treated like those diplomats who under the Geneva Convention enjoy absolute immunity, the Foreign Office source gave an unambiguous “No”.​

Foreign Office concludes Davis is not a diplomat​

“I repeat, I never said that Raymond Davis went to Pakistan with a diplomatic visa, rather than holding a diplomatic passport, he said. Some media quoted the interior minister as saying on Wednesday that Raymond Davis had a diplomatic passport & a diplomatic visa.​

Raymond Davis Has Diplomatic Passport, Not Visa: Rehman Malik | Breaking News​

Given the fact that images of Davis's passport showing a non-diplomatic visa have been released to the media, and the Interior Minister has issued a public statement declaring that Davis did not have a diplomatic visa, and the US embassy has accepted the fact that Davis did not have a diplomatic visa, it will be rather hard to 'forge documents' showing Davis to have a diplomatic visa at this point.

It will still be hard to explain why the US government initially indicated that Raymond Davis was not even his real name, but no doubt the US can forge a fake identity for him to support the fake name.

 

[The HBS Guy]

ISLAMABAD: The Foreign Ministry has concluded that Raymond Davis, the American killer of two Pakistanis, is a non-diplomatic staff member of the US Consulate, who was given a certain level of immunity but not absolute immunity, it is learnt.

A reliable source in the Foreign Office confided to The News that official documents have proved that the American killer is not an accredited US diplomat but is a “non-diplomatic staff” of the US embassy.

The source said despite being a non-diplomatic staff, Davis was notified in January 2010 to have been enjoying diplomatic immunity, explained that the immunity offered to Davis is not absolute. The absolute immunity, it is said, is offered to only a few key members of the mission.

Davis, who is presently being probed by Punjab police following a remand given by the Lahore district court, was in possession of a diplomatic passport with a “business official” visa. He told police that he is serving as technical advisor in the US embassy.

The Foreign Office sources clearly say that there is a lot of difference between absolute immunity and the limited-one that is given to non-diplomatic staff like Raymond Davis.

Absolute immunity under the Geneva Convention, these sources said, is offered to selected members of any foreign mission. The limited-diplomatic immunity is given to otherwise non-entitled members of the mission but on the request of the sending country.

To a question if a non-diplomatic staff given limited-diplomatic immunity can be treated like those diplomats who under the Geneva Convention enjoy absolute immunity, the Foreign Office source gave an unambiguous “No”.​

Foreign Office concludes Davis is not a diplomat​

This is an unsubstantiated media report, AM. Aren't we used to such 'according to sources' reports?

“I repeat, I never said that Raymond Davis went to Pakistan with a diplomatic visa, rather than holding a diplomatic passport, he said. Some media quoted the interior minister as saying on Wednesday that Raymond Davis had a diplomatic passport & a diplomatic visa.​

Raymond Davis Has Diplomatic Passport, Not Visa: Rehman Malik | Breaking News​

Given the fact that images of Davis's passport showing a non-diplomatic visa have been released to the media, and the Interior Minister has issued a public statement declaring that Davis did not have a diplomatic visa, and the US embassy has accepted the fact that Davis did not have a diplomatic visa, it will be rather hard to 'forge documents' showing Davis to have a diplomatic visa at this point.


It will still be hard to explain why the US government initially indicated that Raymond Davis was not even his real name, no doubt the US can forge a fake identity for him to support the fake name.

Look, this is what he has said:

" He holds a diplomatic passport but not visa."

Fair enough. But then no such thing as diplomatic viss is required for diplomatic immunity in the first place.

The fact that the Pakistani foreign office accepted US state deptt.'s letter requesting permit for Mr. Davis' visit to Pakistan, and then later extended it, proves that Davis is indeed diplomatically immune.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

BTW, where are Raymond Davis's family or friends in the US? His image and story have been flashed around on the media quite a bit now, but I haven't seen anything on his family and/or friends speaking to the media about his return and 'how is such a great guy who would never kill innocent people etc.'

High School and college he attended? Friends/relatives who knew him from then?

Anyone have links to any such reports, or is the 'fake identity' necessitating that no one speaks out about him.

 

[The HBS Guy]

BTW, where are Raymond Davis's family or friends in the US? His image and story have been flashed around on the media quite a bit now, but I haven't seen anything on his family and/or friends speaking to the media about his return and 'how is such a great guy who would never kill innocent people etc.'

High School and college he attended? Friends/relatives who knew him from then?

Anyone have links to any such reports, or is the 'fake identity' necessitating that no one speaks out about him.

Personal details of an intelligence operative are most likely to be kept away from the limelight.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

This is an unsubstantiated media report, AM. Aren't we used to such 'according to sources' reports?

The report makes certain legal arguments with respect to the status of Davis, and in that context it actually relates to your following comments:

Fair enough. But then no such thing as diplomatic viss is required for diplomatic immunity in the first place.

That is precisely the quandary at the moment - whether Davis has absolute immunity, limited immunity or no immunity.

The fact that the Pakistani foreign office accepted US state deptt.'s letter requesting permit for Mr. Davis' visit to Pakistan, and then later extended it, proves that Davis is indeed diplomatically immune.

The FO has made no official comment on that yet has it?

And the FO issued a regular visa to Davis, as has been proved without doubt at this point, so how does that translate into the foreign office accepting that Davis was a diplomat and had absolute diplomatic immunity?

 

[Safriz]

117 Billion is not massive,compared to the debt of many other countries in the world which have debts running in many trillions..UK pays 120 million pound interest each day on her 4.8 trillion pound debt.USA's debt runs into double figure trillions.
If the will and political leadership is there to pay off the debt,we can pay it soon enough..May not be in currency but can be in Minerals and commodities...
Say for example Pakistan makes a deal with lenders that we don't have cash,but we can pay in commodities,then mine gold,iron,titanium and whatever and pay off in that form..I think such a deal is possible and according to international financial laws..
Lenders cannot be too choosy when it comes to receiving back their money..

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Personal details of an intelligence operative are most likely to be kept away from the limelight.

His picture and 'name' are all over the media. I am pretty sure his days as an 'intelligence operative' posted in foreign nations are over - a desk job in the US most likely.

And given that his picture and 'name' are all over the media, his family, friends and relatives should have come forth at this point, and we could have at least confirmed whether or not Raymond Davis was his real name.

At this point Raymond Davis appears to be a fraudulent identity, and 'spies' are not diplomats - I doubt any 'entry' given by the host nation to an intelligence operative using a fraudulent identity will qualify for diplomatic immunity - it is a violation of the trust and responsibility given by the host government when according diplomatic status to individuals from another nation.

 

[Safriz]

on the other hand when 10s of thousands of USA's soldiers are next doors to Pakistan,totally relying on Supply line running through Pakistan,they will be stupid enough to annoy Pakistan due to one criminal.

 

[The HBS Guy]

'spies' are not diplomats

They can be. The ambassadorial tussle that our (Indian and Pakistani) embassies regularly indulge in is a case in point.

It happens all the time.

 

[Imran Khan]

Justice will be served, we are with our sister

justice huh my foot its pakistan the most puppet state on earth . they will set free him and every one will forget after few days . can some body remember sialkot brothers murder now? whats the status any news no .lol at law.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Actually they don't. This is a matter to be decided by the foreign office, not courts.

Once the individual was arrested and produced before the court, the matter did become one that had to be handled through the courts. While you are correct that the FO needs to clarify the status of RD, that status now has to be clarified in front of the court, and the court has to order RD's release.

This is a dangerous game that is being played, a resulting corollary using your argument would be for the American court trying a case wherein the present & former ISI chiefs have been named to, by your rule determine that they are liable regardless of the fact that Pakistan claims immunity for them. There will be no joy for Pakistan, going down that street.

There is no corollary with the Mumbai attacks related lawsuit in the US. In that case the defendants are named as alleged conspirators, and neither the crime occurred in the US nor are the accused in the US.

In this case we have an individual who committed an alleged crime in Pakistan, admitted to the act itself at least (even if not admitting it was a crime) and whose diplomatic status is unclear given the various issues already mentioned.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

They can be. The ambassadorial tussle that our (Indian and Pakistani) embassies regularly indulge in is a case in point.

It happens all the time.

And ambassadors have absolute immunity, are usually using a 'real identity' and are usually kicked out by the host country in such situations.

That still answers none of the other arguments raised against Davis's diplomatic immunity.

 

[The HBS Guy]

Once the individual was arrested and produced before the court, the matter did become one that had to be handled through the courts. While you are correct that the FO needs to clarify the status of RD, that status now has to be clarified in front of the court, and the court has to order RD's release.

And that is precisely what Pakistan is doing illegally. Pakistan is taking unilateral action ignoring all internationally accepted practices.

This is a dangerous precedent Pakistan is setting.