Rafale's aerial war games with F22 in year 2009 ( from air & cosmos magazin

[DrSomnath999]

Excellent stuff as usual from Somnath!

I was particularly interested in this:


Now what's remarkable is that the Rafale features an advanced avionics suite which includes several passive sensor systems. The front-sector electro-optical system or Optronique Secteur Frontal TV (OSF-TV), developed by Thales, is completely integrated within the aircraft and can operate both in the visible and infrared wavelengths.

Is that why the F-22s stealth characteristics are defeated to a large extent as can be seen in the pics above?

see mate this pics is shot at within visual range only not at BVR range

well as i said earlier rafale's FSO has undisclosed range of 110km it can detect I R signature of a plane from 110km & it is
interelated with spectra & Spectra can cue Air to air missiles without turning on rafale's aesa radar for stealth reason

Seeker gets on track

 

[r3alist]

looks good.

 

[DrSomnath999]

What is to note is that the F-22 carried its Luneberg lens in these scenario's.. and allowed the Rafale and EF to see it.
and when it did not.. it was able to take BVR shots with impunity..
The Rafale did however, give the F-22 a challenge within WVR since its optronic suite was able to lock on to the F-22..
and shots with the MICA-IR were taken.. assuming that the missle did lock on and hit its target.

well mate tell u what F 22 has not been at BVR exercise with any jet infact the aerial exercise was in Within visual range only so thats why rafale has
managed to show an impressive fight in dogfight .Well ofcourse at BVR range the result may not be the same.

Similar results were seen with the EF and ASRAAM.

well similar result were also seen when Pakistan f16 trashed EF typhoon in aerial exercise;lol: .But u should see out of 6 engagements 1 was in rafale's favour & rest were draw i am sure EF typhoon cant replicate the same score

 

[SQ8]

well mate tell u what F 22 has not been at BVR exercise with any jet infact the aerial exercise was in Within visual range only so thats why rafale has
managed to show an impressive fight in dogfight .Well ofcourse at BVR range the result may not be the same.

well similar result were also seen when Pakistan f16 trashed EF typhoon in aerial exercise;lol: .But u should see out of 6 engagements 1 was in rafale's favour & rest were draw i am sure EF typhoon cant replicate the same score

Umm.. it has infact..
several times infact.. but carrying a luneberg lens reflector..to increase its RCS so that other aircraft may pick it up.

similar results might also be seen if the F-22 goes up against the MKI in WVR..
What is important to know is that the F-22 offers all it does in WVR along with the massive advantage in WVR..
and that these results were posted by the french and the Americans have not confirmed the results..
which has been pointed out in the article on ATLC 2009 in AFM.

Just as there has been no confirmation by other sources on the PAF pilots in TuAF F-16's taking the EF to task.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Umm.. it has infact..
several times infact.. but carrying a luneberg lens reflector..to increase its RCS so that other aircraft may pick it up.

Well i had known it has done with american jets but with foreign jets i am not sure ,if u can post a link i would appreciate it.

similar results might also be seen if the F-22 goes up against the MKI in WVR..

well may be or may be not ,

What is important to know is that the F-22 offers all it does in WVR along with the massive advantage in WVR..
and that these results were posted by the french and the Americans have not confirmed the results..
which has been pointed out in the article on ATLC 2009 in AFM.

well f 22 is manuveurable & rafale pilots have accepted that.Yes americans as usual vehemently denied those allegations about
Rafale's win.But who knows every country supports it's onw jet.

Just as there has been no confirmation by other sources on the PAF pilots in TuAF F-16's taking the EF to task.

Hmm true also typhoon exactly claim they outperform the rafale in air exercise but infact the truth might be the opposite ,I can post the link if u want

 

[DrSomnath999]

So Rafale can compete with F-22 in close air to air combat. But in real life scenario, I wonder how many here believe that Rafale has any chance against F-22.

have u heard about the capabilty of Spectra system/FSO of rafale ,if u had known then u wouldnt have asked such stupid questions

 

[Kinetic]

Umm.. it has infact..
several times infact.. but carrying a luneberg lens reflector..to increase its RCS so that other aircraft may pick it up.

similar results might also be seen if the F-22 goes up against the MKI in WVR..
What is important to know is that the F-22 offers all it does in WVR along with the massive advantage in WVR..
and that these results were posted by the french and the Americans have not confirmed the results..
which has been pointed out in the article on ATLC 2009 in AFM.

Just as there has been no confirmation by other sources on the PAF pilots in TuAF F-16's taking the EF to task.

Interesting. I think in real war scenario ie in BVR no fighter has any chance to win against F-22 (without powerful AWACS support). I doubt even if powerful AWACS is there thanks to all-round stealth and advanced EW of the Raptor, it will be very difficult to track it. Recently heard something new (for me), the whole body of F-22 is a sensor, made up with tiny modules. Can any one put some light on it?

 

[SQ8]

Well i had known it has done with american jets but with foreign jets i am not sure ,if u can post a link i would appreciate it.
Hmm true also typhoon exactly claim they outperform the rafale in air exercise but infact the truth might be the opposite ,I can post the link if u want

Read in AFM.. so a scan may not be possible.

Interesting. I think in real war scenario ie in BVR no fighter has any chance to win against F-22 (without powerful AWACS support). I have doubt even if powerful AWACS is there thanks to all-round stealth of the Raptor. Recently heard something new (for me), the whole body of F-22 is a sensor, made up with tiny modules. Can any one put some light on it?

With an all aspect RCS supposedly less than a marble.. No fighter has a chance of picking the F-22 up until its too late.
And the F-22 would know when and where to make the attack from without alerting passive sensors such as IRST.

The whole idea of the F-22 was to reduce the chance of even going WVR by a huge percentage.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Interesting. I think in real war scenario ie in BVR no fighter has any chance to win against F-22 (without powerful AWACS support). I doubt even if powerful AWACS is there thanks to all-round stealth and advanced EW of the Raptor, it will be very difficult to track it. Recently heard something new (for me), the whole body of F-22 is a sensor, made up with tiny modules. Can any one put some light on it?

boss ,
Tell u what there are no of ways to counter stealth jet

1) IRST ; the most effective & cheapest feature to detect a stealth jet French Sofradir are the world leaders in IR imaging sensors & seekers

2) Bistatic radar: two points one for transmitting & the other for receiving the reflected signal

3) ESM detection :AESA LPI radar can be detected by latest gen's ESM like F22's ALR 94 system & Rafale's Spectra system which
can also cue it's air to air missile with it without turning on it's own Aesa RADAR FOR stealth reason

 

[SQ8]

boss ,
Tell u what there are no of ways to counter stealth jet

1) IRST ; the most effective & cheapest feature to detect a stealth jet French Sofradir are the world leaders in IR imaging sensors & seekers

2) Bistatic radar: two points one for transmitting & the other for receiving the reflected signal

3) ESM detection :AESA LPI radar can be detected by latest gen's ESM like F22's ALR 94 system & Rafale's Spectra system which
can also cue it's air to air missile with it without turning on it's own Aesa RADAR FOR stealth reason

The race between sensor and counter sensor will continue..
each trying to one up the other..
currently though.. the F-22 holds a vast edge..
That does not however..take away from the Rafale's excellent relative capabilities.

 

[sancho]

Umm.. it has infact..
several times infact.. but carrying a luneberg lens reflector..to increase its RCS so that other aircraft may pick it up.

similar results might also be seen if the F-22 goes up against the MKI in WVR..
What is important to know is that the F-22 offers all it does in WVR along with the massive advantage in WVR..
and that these results were posted by the french and the Americans have not confirmed the results..
which has been pointed out in the article on ATLC 2009 in AFM.

Just as there has been no confirmation by other sources on the PAF pilots in TuAF F-16's taking the EF to task.

The combats between F22 and Rafale during ATLC were dogfights and limited to guns only. The results were good for Rafale although it was not able to kill the F22, but neither was the F22 able to kill the Rafale most of the time.
BVR combats were reject from both sides, since the French ruled out using SPECTRA in all modes and the US didn't wanted to use their AESA too.
The FSO pics were most likely done during the dogfights, but had not real advantage in it, it was a pure show of flight performance show and Rafale surprised many people, since it was maneuverable enough to keep up with a air superiority fighter, that has a superior TWR and even TVC.
Btw, the US F22 pilots indirectly confirmed what happend, they said that the F22 remained undefeated, which the French said as well, but they said that 4 or even 5 engagements out of 6 went to draw, which the F22 pilots obviously didn't confirmed, since it's not flattering for them.

But this is by far not comparable to the F16 vs EF claims, because that was stated by an unnamed pilot and not even confirmed by Turkish air force. The ATLC engagement reports came out in an official press conference of the French forces, several French pilots officially confirmed it and as mentioned, even F22 pilots openly stated that the Rafale is indeed a very maneuverable fighter.

 

[DrSomnath999]

The race between sensor and counter sensor will continue..
each trying to one up the other..
currently though.. the F-22 holds a vast edge..
That does not however..take away from the Rafale's excellent relative capabilities.

mate dont misunderstand me as a fanboy/ biased indian that i am lauding Rafale's capabilities as it is chosen by my own country.
Well F 22 avionics / processor system are equivalent to Rafale ,but F 35 avionics / processor is much advanced than rafale.Of course rafale F 4 variant may going to have have some advanced system compare to f3 variant of rafale

 

[sancho]

1) IRST ; the most effective & cheapest feature to detect a stealth jet

No it's not, because IRST is highly dependent on weather and climate, which can reduce the range by far. The quoted range numbers are only for ideal scenarios, in reality the range is way limited.
The best way to detect a stealth fighter at long ranges are advanced EW and ESM featurs, like you pointed out at number 3. These can detect signals at very long ranges, no matter if we talk about a stealth or a non stealth fighter. The Growler is still one of the few fighters that claims to have killed an F22 and that even in BVR!
Also stealth doesn't mean invisible, but very hard to detect. At closer ranges, these fighters will be detected by modern radars too, but by that time a stealth fighter should already have taken advantage of these capabilities.

 

[SQ8]

The combats between F22 and Rafale during ATLC were dogfights and limited to guns only. The results were good for Rafale although it was not able to kill the F22, but neither was the F22 able to kill the Rafale most of the time.
BVR combats were reject from both sides, since the French ruled out using SPECTRA in all modes and the US didn't wanted to use their AESA too.
The FSO pics were most likely done during the dogfights, but had not real advantage in it, it was a pure show of flight performance show and Rafale surprised many people, since it was maneuverable enough to keep up with a air superiority fighter, that has a superior TWR and even TVC.
Btw, the US F22 pilots indirectly confirmed what happend, they said that the F22 remained undefeated, which the French said as well, but they said that 4 or even 5 engagements out of 6 went to draw, which the F22 pilots obviously didn't confirmed, since it's not flattering for them.

But this is by far not comparable to the F16 vs EF claims, because that was stated by an unnamed pilot and not even confirmed by Turkish air force. The ATLC engagement reports came out in an official press conference of the French forces, several French pilots officially confirmed it and as mentioned, even F22 pilots openly stated that the Rafale is indeed a very maneuverable fighter.

Agreed..
But apparently there were BVR engagements taken in ATLC..or was this only between the Rafale and EF???
The rafale is undoubtedly an excellent dogfighter.. a word of mouth testament to me by the PAF pilot who had a check ride in it.
It can point its nose wherever it wants.. whenever it wants.

Again.. draws in Air combat arent really results to be counted.. and the french were in a mood for promoting the rafale(in anticipation for the UAE order and MMRCA)..
Such liberties are not granted to USAF pilots(since the red flag incident)...and/or PAF sources.
So whatever comes out.. comes out by word of mouth.

 

[DrSomnath999]

No it's not, because IRST is highly dependent on weather and climate, which can reduce the range by far. The quoted range numbers are only for ideal scenarios, in reality the range is way limited.

yes it is dependent on weather & climate but u should also look the quality of IRST manufacturer i mean which country manufactures it.there is big difference between made in france IRST & MADE in UK or china IRST.

The best way to detect a stealth fighter at long ranges are advanced EW and ESM featurs, like you pointed out at number 3. These can detect signals at very long ranges, no matter if we talk about a stealth or a non stealth fighter. The Growler is still one of the few fighters that claims to have killed an F22 and that even in BVR!

but there is a problem u need the aircraft to be in active mode (i.e) radar turn on i doubt todays fighter including 4th 0r 5th gen
fighters rarely turn on their radar as they depend more on AWACS support.

Also stealth doesn't mean invisible, but very hard to detect. At closer ranges, these fighters will be detected by modern radars too, but by that time a stealth fighter should already have taken advantage of these capabilities.

yes thats a fact .but ways to counter it are already been worked out by Russians/ french / & of course china