Rafale will not be split with Navy

[Hello_10]

as per I know, the latest version of Mig29, the Mig29k is primarily designed for air superiority roles and is now offered with much improved a2g roles, similarly how Rafale is regarded as having balance performance of both a2a and a2g roles? but if Mig29k is of comparison of Mirage2000-5 mk2 and F16 block52, then the Rafale is next gen option?

 

[Tshering22]

as per I know, the latest version of Mig29, the Mig29k is primarily designed for air superiority roles and is now offered with much improved a2g roles, similarly how Rafale is regarded as having balance performance of both a2a and a2g roles? but if Mig29k is of comparison of Mirage2000-5 mk2 and F16 block52, then the Rafale is next gen option?

MiG-29K was designed keeping the next decade or so's requirements in mind. Rafale is not next gen option but an improvement that the MiG-29Ks will be open to in the coming 5-8 years already. So there's no point of buying a third type fighter and complicating Navy's inventory.

It is a swanky jet no doubt and I don't see why we'd need a new type of jet all over again in IOR when we already have the home turf advantage and pretty much control the upper IOR. PLAN no matter how much it expands, it will never enter IOR for combat. They'd be in big trouble if they tried.

 

[Tshering22]

we see usual delays in defense projects so we would expect the IAC-1 to be operational by even 2016/18 so we may say that induction of IAC-2 may be delayed to even 2022/25. and the IAC-3, which is expected to be a Super Carrier, may be delayed to 2030/35.

INS Vikrant-II is on track as per the IN and MOD except its first year of delay that it faced 3 years ago. Other than that, all is working fine. The Ks will continue coming in batch by batch when Vikrant would be cleared for sea test completion next year and be inducted by year end.

I have a gut feeling that Vikramaditya and Vikrant-II would joint our Navy simultaneously. But then you guys will have to speed up the production of the remaining 30 MiG-29Ks (total 45 ordered).

BTW has your navy started inducting the Ks? I heard you people were phasing your Su-33s out from this year or something. Is it true?

so, if Mig29k was fully justified for INS Vikramaditya and IAC-1 because of its balance performance of a2a and a2g roles, a 4.5 gen aircraft, then we would say Rafale, a 4++ aircraft, would be better suited for IAC-2. also production lines of Rafale will have been matured with many upgrades till 2020 onwards. and as Super Carrier IAC-3 would certainly have a naval version of 5th gen stealth PAK FA/ FGFA, it would be better accompanied with IAC-2 with Rafale for overseas operations

I don't think we'd need another 4.5 gen jet and we certainly don't have an IAC-3 as of yet. It might be 10 years from now but certainly not now. We just don't need three carriers operating as it is too costly. Chinese have a huge belt of pacific to travel but we are already in control of IOR. It is very remote that PLAN carriers would come for battle into our waters with their mind already focused on USN.

 

[sancho]

as per I know, the latest version of Mig29, the Mig29k is primarily designed for air superiority roles and is now offered with much improved a2g roles, similarly how Rafale is regarded as having balance performance of both a2a and a2g roles? but if Mig29k is of comparison of Mirage2000-5 mk2 and F16 block52, then the Rafale is next gen option?

It has improved itself in A2G, that's why IAF Mig 29s will have it after the upgrades too. The Mig 29Ks will be multi role capable, but that doesn't meant they are as good as Rafale M or the F18SH, because it still is a decade old design with very limited upgrade potential.
As I told you often before, Mig 29Ks was never the fighter IN really wanted, but they was left with no other choice! Su 33 MKI was not suitable for medium class carriers, the US rejected catapults which ruled out Rafale or F18SH and Russia combined the Gorshkov deal with Mig 29Ks. The follow deal was just logical, since N-LCA is nowhere near to be available and it was the cheapest and easiest alternative.
Mig 29Ks might be more capable than N-LCAs, but not in the same league with Rafale M or F18SH as carrier fighters. Be it range, payload, avionics, weapons..., they are clearly superior. That's why they will remain to be capable for IAC and for the future, while the Mig will not.

 

[Dash]

F35 is as good a bomb truck as f18 with credible air to air capability. Its best for SEAD missions and can rattle the naval ships and commands beyond enemy lines. AC are for power projection mainly not for air defense.

India not eyeing ACs for power projection. not atleast before IAC-3 all these ACs before IAC3 will do regional patroling at best.

 

[Hello_10]

as per I know, the latest version of Mig29, the Mig29k is primarily designed for air superiority roles and is now offered with much improved a2g roles, similarly how Rafale is regarded as having balance performance of both a2a and a2g roles? but if Mig29k is of comparison of Mirage2000-5 mk2 and F16 block52, then the Rafale is next gen option?

It has improved itself in A2G, that's why IAF Mig 29s will have it after the upgrades too. The Mig 29Ks will be multi role capable, but that doesn't meant they are as good as Rafale M or the F18SH, because it still is a decade old design with very limited upgrade potential.
As I told you often before, Mig 29Ks was never the fighter IN really wanted, but they was left with no other choice! Su 33 MKI was not suitable for medium class carriers, the US rejected catapults which ruled out Rafale or F18SH and Russia combined the Gorshkov deal with Mig 29Ks. The follow deal was just logical, since N-LCA is nowhere near to be available and it was the cheapest and easiest alternative.

Mig 29Ks might be more capable than N-LCAs, but not in the same league with Rafale M or F18SH as carrier fighters. Be it range, payload, avionics, weapons..., they are clearly superior. That's why they will remain to be capable for IAC and for the future, while the Mig will not.

Sancho, I have told you few times that we have communication problem. That is, even if me and you both have told/ informed each other many things, did you read my post you replied? I myself say Rafale is a ‘next gen’ option, isn’t it? I myself says that the latest version of Mig29, the Mig29k being delivered to IN, is multi role and fit in comparison to Mirage2000-5 mk2/ F16 block52, as, Rafale was in competition with F16 block70 for MRCA and production line of Rafale was opened when French closed production line of Mirage2000-5, isn’t it? Then we both are saying the same

But we have one difference here, that is, I say that IN always wanted Mig29k for IAC-1 and INS Vikramaditya, as, first a2a role of F18SM is very poor even if it is of high end side for a2g roles, and also Rafale was being evaluated for MMRCA till 2010, when IN signed a deal for 29 additional Mig29ks. And if it was fully justified for IAF to pay over $70mil for upgrading old Mirage2000 recently, and if Pak’s F16 block52 is still the best aircraft on Indian border, then here, Mig29k which is more or less fit in comparison of block52 and 2000-5 mk2, was a good option for IN 'till 2010'

(Similarly, even if SU30MKI of Super Sukhoi type with AESA radar will be delivered to IAF from 2013 onwards, IAF is accepting Su30mki of PESA radar right now as they want continuous delivery of aircrafts? Similarly, even if Rafale F3 would be delivered as first batch, it may be possible that type F4 may be delivered from 2015/17 onwards and may be even type F5 of Rafale will be delivered from 2022/23 onwards. We do need continuous deliveries of aircrafts as we can’t wait for the best version/ upgrade of any aircraft for longer. So, Mig29k was justified as per the ‘current’ availability 'till 2010', you got the point?)

 

[Abingdonboy]

Sancho, I have told you few times that we have communication problem. That is, even if me and you both have told/ informed each other many things, did you read my post you replied? I myself say Rafale is a ‘next gen’ option, isn’t it? I myself says that the latest version of Mig29, the Mig29k being delivered to IN, is multi role and fit in comparison to Mirage2000-5 mk2/ F16 block52, as, Rafale was in competition with F16 block70 for MRCA and production line of Rafale was opened when French closed production line of Mirage2000-5, isn’t it? Then we both are saying the same

But we have one difference here, that is, I say that IN always wanted Mig29k for IAC-1 and INS Vikramaditya, as, first a2a role of F18SM is very poor even if it is of high end side for a2g roles, and also Rafale was being evaluated for MMRCA till 2010, when IN signed a deal for 29 additional Mig29ks. And if it was fully justified for IAF to pay over $70mil for upgrading old Mirage2000 recently, and if Pak’s F16 block52 is still the best aircraft on Indian border, then here, Mig29k which is more or less in comparison of block52 and 2000-5 mk2, was a good option for IN 'till 2010'

(Similarly, even if SU30MKI of Super Sukhoi type with AESA radar will be delivered to IAF from 2013 onwards, IAF is accepting Su30mki of PESA radar right now as they want continuous delivery of aircrafts? Similarly, even if Rafale F3 would be delivered as first batch, it may be possible that type F4 may be delivered from 2015/17 onwards and may be even type F5 of Rafale will be delivered from 2022/23 onwards. We do need continuous deliveries of aircrafts as we can’t wait for the best version/ upgrade of any aircraft for longer. So, Mig29k was justified as per the ‘current’ availability 'till 2010', you got the point?)

Fair point- at the time Mig-29K was purchased it was the best option the IN had infront of it. Obviously now the situation is different and the IN is looking at different (and mostly better) birds but that's not to say the Mig-29K isn't/wasn't right for the IN at the time.

 

[janon]

Sancho, I have told you few times that we have communication problem. That is, even if me and you both have told/ informed each other many things, did you read my post you replied? I myself say Rafale is a ‘next gen’ option, isn’t it? I myself says that the latest version of Mig29, the Mig29k being delivered to IN, is multi role and fit in comparison to Mirage2000-5 mk2/ F16 block52, as, Rafale was in competition with F16 block70 for MRCA and production line of Rafale was opened when French closed production line of Mirage2000-5, isn’t it? Then we both are saying the same

But we have one difference here, that is, I say that IN always wanted Mig29k for IAC-1 and INS Vikramaditya, as, first a2a role of F18SM is very poor even if it is of high end side for a2g roles, and also Rafale was being evaluated for MMRCA till 2010, when IN signed a deal for 29 additional Mig29ks. And if it was fully justified for IAF to pay over $70mil for upgrading old Mirage2000 recently, and if Pak’s F16 block52 is still the best aircraft on Indian border, then here, Mig29k which is more or less in comparison of block52 and 2000-5 mk2, was a good option for IN 'till 2010'

(Similarly, even if SU30MKI of Super Sukhoi type with AESA radar will be delivered to IAF from 2013 onwards, IAF is accepting Su30mki of PESA radar right now as they want continuous delivery of aircrafts? Similarly, even if Rafale F3 would be delivered as first batch, it may be possible that type F4 may be delivered from 2015/17 onwards and may be even type F5 of Rafale will be delivered from 2022/23 onwards. We do need continuous deliveries of aircrafts as we can’t wait for the best version/ upgrade of any aircraft for longer. So, Mig29k was justified as per the ‘current’ availability 'till 2010', you got the point?)

There are a couple of nitpicks I want to make:

1) The mirage upgrade deal cost about $ 52 million per plane, not $70 million as you claim. Still a very high price in my opinion, but that's a significant exageration.
2) I'm not sure if the mig-29K will be comparable in all respects to the upgraded mirages. Especially in the avionics department, they are upgrading to truly next generation standards. The electronics on board has been described as the 'heart of rafale inside a mirage'. The mission computer is the same as that on the rafale. These will be significantly more capable than the pakistani F16 block 52s (though not by a generation, like the rafales).

While I agree that the mig 29k purchase may have been the only option given the timelines of various purchases, unfortunately it seem that they will be a burden on the force structure of the IN air arm 10 to 15 years from now. These birds are only just arriving, and would start active service on the carriers in 2013. All combat jets are expected to serve for 25-30 years. However, 10 years from now the navy would be much better served by a fleet of naval 5th generation multirole fighters and a significant number of N-LCAs to keep costs down. I'm sure that navalised FGFAs or N-AMCAs or fully matured F-35s would be available by then.

This would allow N-LCAs to undertake most maritime roles during peace time, and allow India to have a formidable power projection capability. The N-LCAs would keep operating costs down, and if aquired in numbers, the cost of the LCA program can be brought down significantly as well.

The mig 29s just dont seem to fulfil a need 10 years from now.

 

[Abingdonboy]

There are a couple of nitpicks I want to make:

1) The mirage upgrade deal cost about $ 52 million per plane, not $70 million as you claim. Still a very high price in my opinion, but that's a significant exageration.
2) I'm not sure if the mig-29K will be comparable in all respects to the upgraded mirages. Especially in the avionics department, they are upgrading to truly next generation standards. The electronics on board has been described as the 'heart of rafale inside a mirage'. The mission computer is the same as that on the rafale. These will be significantly more capable than the pakistani F16 block 52s (though not by a generation, like the rafales).

While I agree that the mig 29k purchase may have been the only option given the timelines of various purchases, unfortunately it seem that they will be a burden on the force structure of the IN air arm 10 to 15 years from now. These birds are only just arriving, and would start active service on the carriers in 2013. All combat jets are expected to serve for 25-30 years. However, 10 years from now the navy would be much better served by a fleet of naval 5th generation multirole fighters and a significant number of N-LCAs to keep costs down. I'm sure that navalised FGFAs or N-AMCAs or fully matured F-35s would be available by then.

This would allow N-LCAs to undertake most maritime roles during peace time, and allow India to have a formidable power projection capability. The N-LCAs would keep operating costs down, and if aquired in numbers, the cost of the LCA program can be brought down significantly as well.

The mig 29s just dont seem to fulfil a need 10 years from now.

Whilst not to the same level as IAF's UPG M2k the Mig-29 UPG is still a dramatic UPG and is sourcing many componants from, among others, Thales. The M2k UPG, Mig-29UPG and Mig-29K are all superior than the F-26 Blk.52 and could easily defeat them in a typical conflict.


The results of M2k UPG will be interesting to see as something like this hasn't been done on any M2k (or 4th gen fighters for that matter) before.

 

[Hello_10]

There are a couple of nitpicks I want to make:

1) The mirage upgrade deal cost about $ 52 million per plane, not $70 million as you claim. Still a very high price in my opinion, but that's a significant exageration.
2) I'm not sure if the mig-29K will be comparable in all respects to the upgraded mirages. Especially in the avionics department, they are upgrading to truly next generation standards. The electronics on board has been described as the 'heart of rafale inside a mirage'. The mission computer is the same as that on the rafale. These will be significantly more capable than the pakistani F16 block 52s (though not by a generation, like the rafales).

While I agree that the mig 29k purchase may have been the only option given the timelines of various purchases, unfortunately it seem that they will be a burden on the force structure of the IN air arm 10 to 15 years from now. These birds are only just arriving, and would start active service on the carriers in 2013. All combat jets are expected to serve for 25-30 years. However, 10 years from now the navy would be much better served by a fleet of naval 5th generation multirole fighters and a significant number of N-LCAs to keep costs down. I'm sure that navalised FGFAs or N-AMCAs or fully matured F-35s would be available by then.

This would allow N-LCAs to undertake most maritime roles during peace time, and allow India to have a formidable power projection capability. The N-LCAs would keep operating costs down, and if aquired in numbers, the cost of the LCA program can be brought down significantly as well.

The mig 29s just dont seem to fulfil a need 10 years from now.

please reply to post 69 as I dont want to be part of any 'Vs' of 'same generation' aircrafts, specially of '4.5' gen, and:-

With the $2.4bn Mirage-2000 upgrade deal with France in its final stages, India’s defence ministry and air force top brass seem to be split over the high costs and likely benefits to the country’s future air power needs.
With the contract papers said to be headed to the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), the volume against the deal is rising, top officials said here.
Among points of contention is the deal cost to upgrade the 51 Mirage-2000 combat aircraft by French company Dassault Aviation. Taking into account $1bn for new weapons and another $500mn for new facilities at Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for the upgrade, the cost could rise to $3.9bn, the officials said.

Gulf Times ? Qatar?s top-selling English daily newspaper - Defence brass is split over French Mirage upgrade deal

 

[janon]

please reply to post 69 as I dont want to be part of any 'Vs' of 'same generation' aircrafts, specially of '4.5' gen, and:-

As your link states, that is the cost of weapons and other facilities, not the cost of upgrading the aircraft itself.

I wasn't bringing in any mig v/s mirage arguments either, I was just correcting a couple of points in your post, thats all.

 

[nomi007]

but why IN is purchasing obsolete mig 29k

 

[PEACEMAKER2010]

but why IN is purchasing obsolete mig 29k

because vikramaditiya and IAC1 are ski jump carriers they don't have catapult-assisted takeoff ability which is required for F18 or rafale to take off and production is not cost effective for su 33 in case of small orders and 29k's are not obsolete

 

[Abingdonboy]

but why IN is purchasing obsolete mig 29k

There's nothing obsolete about the Mig-29K, it has state-of-the-art avionics and if it is obsolete then so is the entire PAF as the K is more advanced than anything in PAF's fleet.


+but don't worry in its MLU in ~2020 the K will be getting extensive UPGs including AESA radar and TVC and Supercruise (as well as other goodies) so it won't be as obsolete.

 

[sancho]

Sancho, I have told you few times that we have communication problem. That is, even if me and you both have told/ informed each other many things, did you read my post you replied?

You said:

the Mig29k is primarily designed for air superiority roles and is now offered with much improved a2g roles, similarly how Rafale is regarded as having balance performance of both a2a and a2g roles?

Which is wrong, it is multi role capable but not even close to the performance of Rafale as a multi role fighter, so there is no problem in communication, just a matter of understanding the facts.

I say that IN always wanted Mig29k for IAC-1 and INS Vikramaditya, as, first a2a role of F18SM is very poor even if it is of high end side for a2g roles, and also Rafale was being evaluated for MMRCA till 2010, when IN signed a deal for 29 additional Mig29ks.

Both wrong again, the F18SH might not be as maneuverable as the Mig, but is still superior in air combats with AESA radar, AIM 120D a lower RCS, JHMCS and AIM 9X. IN was interested in Rafale and the F18SH at the same time as they were on Su 33s (early 2000s), because they evaluated the options for Gorshkov and the coming IAC 1, which was way earlier than MMRCA!

We do need continuous deliveries of aircrafts as we can’t wait for the best version/ upgrade of any aircraft for longer.

As mentioned above, you got the timelines completelly wrong, Su 33s were available in that time and easily could be customised with the same options as IAF MKIs, but they were not suitable for Gorshkov or IAC1. The F18SH with AESA was available before 2010, just like Rafale F3 with PESA, both could have been easily bought (remember Dassault even offered fast delivery of 40 fighters since 2008 if we wanted). So availability of them wasn't an issue either, no matter if you want to accept it or not, the Migs were only the last option and one that IN had to go with. The follow deal was just for logistical commonality and due to the further delays of N-LCA, nothing else.