Rafale will not be split with Navy

[tvsram1992]

We have lot of time . Its better to go for N-AMCA or N-PAKFA,which would be available to us by the time F35 Naval Version will be ready for export to India .

 

[Abingdonboy]

Well this is hardly news. Yes some idiots did link the IAF MMRCA and the IN N-MMRCA but they are two SEPARATE projects. It would be utterly foolish for IN to go for whatever platform one the IAF MMRCA without conducting their own full series of tests (which are yet to take place). Naval aviation, as the IN well know, is an INCREDIBLY arduous task and the IN would not accept anything but the best after conducting a through analysis of THEIR needs and getting a machine that best suits them. The IAF and IN have entirely different air wings with their own dedicated infrastructure completely separate to one another as such there is very little crossover between the two as such IAF procurement has very little affect on IN procurement due to the very different demands by both services.



+ F-35 is still VERY MUCH on the table.

 

[saurabh]

With so much talk about F35 for navy, is it financially possible?
Navy will not give a big order. If it is not a indigenous/semi indigenous platform like LCA or FGFA, can we afford an entirely different and costly platform? Mig 29 with some (if possible) improvements should be adequate, if the intended platforms are delayed.

 

[Abingdonboy]

With so much talk about F35 for navy, is it financially possible?
Navy will not give a big order. If it is not a indigenous/semi indigenous platform like LCA or FGFA, can we afford an entirely different and costly platform? Mig 29 with some (if possible) improvements should be adequate, if the intended platforms are delayed.

Beyond the 45 on order for IN the Mig-29K (or even a possible Mig-35K which is speculated) has little prospects of more orders. They have filled the air wings of INS Vikramditya and IAC-1 but for the ACCs beyond them a new platform will be required most, this is where the N-MMRCA comes in. In regards to N-FGFA/PAK-FA we are A LONG way from seeing this platform be anywhere near ready and the IN will certainly be wanting a platform for IAC 2 well before we are likely to see this platform ready for service. Hence the F-35 which will be operational by the time IN requires a new platform seems like a good fit to the IN's demands.


The thing is at some point the IN will need to standardize their fighter fleet as buying a brand new and different air wing for every 1-2 carriers is just not feasible but this means at some point the ACC design for IN will have to become standardized as right now the IAC 1, IAC 2 and INS Vikramditya are all different and whilst there is enough commonality between IAC 1 and INS Vikramditya for them to be able to share an air wing this is not true of IAC 2 and future carriers. But this could well mean that any ac the IN goes for on IAC 2 other than the NFGFA/PAKFA will kill off the chances of these platforms in IN service as other wise there would be 4 DIFFERENT fighter ac in the IN (Mig-29k, N-LCA, N-MMRCA, N-FGFA/PAK-FA) and it is doubtful the IN would want ot go down that route. Hence if the N-MMRCA is going to be the fighter of the future with IN than the F-35 being the very cutting edge of technology looks to be a fitting candidate.

 

[saurabh]

Beyond the 45 on order for IN the Mig-29K (or even a possible Mig-35K which is speculated) has little prospects of more orders. They have filled the air wings of INS Vikramditya and IAC-1 but for the ACCs beyond them a new platform will be required most, this is where the N-MMRCA comes in. In regards to N-FGFA/PAK-FA we are A LONG way from seeing this platform be anywhere near ready and the IN will certainly be wanting a platform for IAC 2 well before we are likely to see this platform ready for service. Hence the F-35 which will be operational by the time IN requires a new platform seems like a good fit to the IN's demands.

How much do you think 20 to 40 F35s would cost, including infra and weapons? And when would we, with such a long queue already there, get them? 4rt gen machine would be more suitable, for timely delivery as well as economics.

 

[Tija]

The Naval MMRCA is for IAC-2 if i am not wrong. then mig-29 or N-LCA will not fulfill our requirement at that time frame i.e. 2020-2025, best bet will be F-35 or N-FGFA or N-AMCA

 

[Abingdonboy]

How much do you think 20 to 40 F35s would cost, including infra and weapons? And when would we, with such a long queue already there, get them? 4rt gen machine would be more suitable, for timely delivery as well as economics.

Well this is obviously hard to know at this time with prices varying widely from customer to customer (some report they have paid <$80 mill/plane whilst others are reportedly paying >$100 million/plane). But for a deal of 2 SQDs (~40 a/c) I'd say conservatvily, the IN could be paying $5-6 Billion for training, infrastructure, logistics (maybe weapons, but that'd probably be a separate deal). Bearing in mind the Indian economy would have grown almost 50% (more likely more) by the time the IN is looking to buy these a/c I'd say this is somthing the IN would seriously consider given what the platforms offers and the timeline of induction.

 

[Dash]

Well this is hardly news. Yes some idiots did link the IAF MMRCA and the IN N-MMRCA but they are two SEPARATE projects. It would be utterly foolish for IN to go for whatever platform one the IAF MMRCA without conducting their own full series of tests (which are yet to take place). Naval aviation, as the IN well know, is an INCREDIBLY arduous task and the IN would not accept anything but the best after conducting a through analysis of THEIR needs and getting a machine that best suits them. The IAF and IN have entirely different air wings with their own dedicated infrastructure completely separate to one another as such there is very little crossover between the two as such IAF procurement has very little affect on IN procurement due to the very different demands by both services.



+ F-35 is still VERY MUCH on the table.

You are forgetting one thing, It will take at least 10 years for India to buy any mainstay US offensive platforms. Saying 10 years im being greedy here. it could be well off 20 years.

Dont believe the news reports. Rafale and Rafale M are 80% common platform. and for a strike aircraft its very good.

 

[Abingdonboy]

You are forgetting one thing, It will take at least 10 years for India to buy any mainstay US offensive platforms. Saying 10 years im being greedy here. it could be well off 20 years.

Dont believe the news reports. Rafale and Rafale M are 80% common platform. and for a strike aircraft its very good.

i don't think 10 years is a realistic time frame, yes the JSF has a huge amount of outstanding orders but the US also has HUGE industrial output and will soon be cranking out close to 200 F-53s/year and for the sizable order the IN would be looking to procure I'm sure the US would be obliging in ensuring speedy delivery. Anyway this order isn't going to be made tomorrow most likely in 2014/15 once JSF production has begun in earnest.


I'm not disputing the degree of commonality between Rafale-C and M, I am well aware of this- it's clear to see but what I'm saying is it is an ideal platform for the IAF but for the IN it is not the best platform, which I'd say the F-35 was.

 

[Skull and Bones]

How much do you think 20 to 40 F35s would cost, including infra and weapons?

A tad over $200 million per piece including infra and weapons. And Navy requires more than 60 of those.

And when would we, with such a long queue already there, get them? 4rt gen machine would be more suitable, for timely delivery as well as economics.

US is currently struggling to find customer for their JSF, with UK cutting in numbers and thinking about inducting F-18SH or Rafale for their Navy. And US has excellent reputation in delivering their order books before time.

And no, running cost of F-35 won't be staggeringly high, and will be in the range of Rafale or Mig-29K. And the advantage of an carrier capable stealth fighter is undeniable, specially the psychological effect.

 

[Tshering22]

I think the IN should stick to MiG-29Ks and Tejas as of now. We are in no hurry for inducting foreign jets for NAVY of a third type and make it also a logistics nightmare.

IAF should stick to its current plant upto 2030 at least:

FGFA, MKI, Rafale, Tejas and later AMCA.

That's more than enough.

 

[Skull and Bones]

I think the IN should stick to MiG-29Ks and Tejas as of now. We are in no hurry for inducting foreign jets for NAVY of a third type and make it also a logistics nightmare.

IAF should stick to its current plant upto 2030 at least:

FGFA, MKI, Rafale, Tejas and later AMCA.

That's more than enough.

IAC 2 will float somewhere around 2018, we'll need those foreign birds by then. I'm personally in favor for F-18SHs as Mig-29Ks will be on the little outdated side.

 

[hembo]

IAC 2 will float somewhere around 2018, we'll need those foreign birds by then. I'm personally in favor for F-18SHs as Mig-29Ks will be on the little outdated side.

F-35 for IN!!!!!

This is the second time today I said it.. May be its gonna happen..

 

[SQ8]

Inter service rivalry at it again..
I think the IAF does not want to share with the IN here.
The Rafale C and M are different.. bur not THAT different.

 

[Ammyy]

Inter service rivalry at it again..
I think the IAF does not want to share with the IN here.
The Rafale C and M are different.. bur not THAT different.

Navy have two much time to decide as construction of IAC 2 & 3 not even started till that time may be N-PakFa available for us,
If not then F35 for sure