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Rafale will not be split with Navy

Off topic, you really have a thing against fteens!

Not at all, only against the current F18SH, because it's not a capable fighter. I like F15s and 16s and loved the F14! Btw, I also think the Mig 29K has no chance to be selected again, because it has no future. It is not a new fighter, only a naval re-design of the older Migs and the general design wich is decades old, can't be changed anymore. Two vertical tail fins, air intakes without ducts, limited use of composite and RAM material, limited range and payload...
But as I said, I do see chances for the F18SH to be selected by IN, if the Silent Hornet upgrades would not only be offered, but also developed by then.
The best choice imo would be Rafale M, for 3 reasons:

1) commonality to IAF
2) low procurement costs, since it can simply be added to the MMRCA deal
3) possibility of taking certain techs and weapons for a naval AMCA as well, which would ease the development

The downside of Rafale M is, that it has fixed wings and that no twin seat version is available, but it's the option with the highest future potential besides the F35 of course.
 
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The rafale does not have folding , and takes up allot of space on a carrier deck. I dont think it will meet the IN's needs unless the IN inducts a much larger carrier than what is being built right now, or it is operated from land.
 
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The rafale does not have folding , and takes up allot of space on a carrier deck. I dont think it will meet the IN's needs unless the IN inducts a much larger carrier than what is being built right now, or it is operated from land.

Quite right, but it has been reported that IAC-2 will be 55-65,000 tonnes. And if they were going to be operated off land then they would not be operated by IN but IAF as IN has a very specific requirment for CARRIER-BORNE fighters. I'm sure a few Rafales will be kept ready in a maritime interdiction role just as 1 SQD of IAF MKI and 2 SQD of IAF Jaguar (IM) are at the moment.
 
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i don't think 10 years is a realistic time frame, yes the JSF has a huge amount of outstanding orders but the US also has HUGE industrial output and will soon be cranking out close to 200 F-53s/year and for the sizable order the IN would be looking to procure I'm sure the US would be obliging in ensuring speedy delivery. Anyway this order isn't going to be made tomorrow most likely in 2014/15 once JSF production has begun in earnest.


I'm not disputing the degree of commonality between Rafale-C and M, I am well aware of this- it's clear to see but what I'm saying is it is an ideal platform for the IAF but for the IN it is not the best platform, which I'd say the F-35 was.

Look, first of all we dont have a policy here to buy frontline offensive weapons from US. its the same reason F-18 and F-16 were eliminated from the MRCA competition. Before we get ready to buy something like that from US it will take us 10-15 years and the trust factor has to build which is not the case now. This is one point.

Second, F-35 is more trouble than freedom. Delivery is not yet scheduled. The Stovl/Vtol version is not yet completely ready. I agree that navy might want something advanced like F-35 for its IAC-2/3 onwards carriers. But let me tell its not the best platform for "India", why because given our regional waters you will need a strike with Maximum ground attack capacity.

F-35 is a deep penetration strike fighter. US navy will use 500 of these fighters to fight its war offshore, for which its best suitable. But for us we have need for the Carrier borne fighters first for air defense and if required then coastal bombing. For that I will say we will need a bomb truck, something like F-18 or Rafale, which can carry maximum payload do the damage and come back safely.

With Rafale you have commonality of everything, and its a proven platform than F-35. I am sure navy will go for these, unless they get into a ego issue to start a competion of their own.
 
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And do you know the reasons why MiG-35 was rejected? Public domain says all eggs-in-one-basket theory. MiG-29K was custom built for us and is brand new. Even the Russians have dumped the Su-33 (what chinese call J-15). Why do you think they did that?

Why is it that Hornets were chosen for their medium category rather than continue the heavy Tomcats?

See that's the whole reason why K was chosen for Navy. And it is here to stay for another 20 years. Buying weapons isn't buying onions and potatoes that you can buy 10 from this country, 40 from that country, 20 from another nation... no. It is about operational costs, commonality, ease to use and maintain and political constraints.
MIG-29K is no where near SU-33. The endurance power of SU33 is far away than MIG-29k. The Russia carrier don't have catapult-assisted takeoff ability, so the SU-33 can't take off at its largest payload. China will definitely develop catapult instead of ski-jumper.
 
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In year 2011 I was discussing with BAE engineers. I asked them how much QE class Supercarrier costs?? They told 10+ Billion Pound.

The Carrier itself cost 3-4 billion USD. 50+ F35 cost another 5 billion (assuming 100 mill a piece). and 2-3 billion USD for other things.

By the same logic IAC 2 will cost 7-8 billion USD if we go for F35. I think India will not go for F35, rather India will use low end N-LCA or N-AMCA (if made). N-FGFA is not in queue, it will take many years. India will go for MiG29K, N-LCA and Rafael-Marine or EFT.
 
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I'm sure a few Rafales will be kept ready in a maritime interdiction role just as 1 SQD of IAF MKI and 2 SQD of IAF Jaguar (IM) are at the moment.
Jaguar IM squad was raised in a time when multi role fighters were not available, with fighters like MKI, Rafale and LCA you don't need such a special sqaud anymore.
 
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Jaguar IM squad was raised in a time when multi role fighters were not available, with fighters like MKI, Rafale and LCA you don't need such a special sqaud anymore.

You are right

Even today IAF only has like 12 Jaguar IM , but they are no longer the main stay of Anti shipping operation since IAF also operate some 36 Su30MKI equipped with Kh135 Anti Ship Missiles with range of 285 Km
Even Rafales will come with 72 Exocet Anti Ship Missiles , which indicate that some 36 Rafales will be equipped for Maritime strike
Also Jaguar IM will retire in 2022
 
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F-35 is a deep penetration strike fighter. US navy will use 500 of these fighters to fight its war offshore, for which its best suitable. But for us we have need for the Carrier borne fighters first for air defense and if required then coastal bombing. For that I will say we will need a bomb truck, something like F-18 or Rafale, which can carry maximum payload do the damage and come back safely.

F35 is as good a bomb truck as f18 with credible air to air capability. Its best for SEAD missions and can rattle the naval ships and commands beyond enemy lines. AC are for power projection mainly not for air defense.
 
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MIG-29K is no where near SU-33. The endurance power of SU33 is far away than MIG-29k. The Russia carrier don't have catapult-assisted takeoff ability, so the SU-33 can't take off at its largest payload. China will definitely develop catapult instead of ski-jumper.

dude...just because you chose the Su 33 ...that doesnt make it a better plane than the Mig 29....the Su 33 was rejected by the Indian Navy even before you guys talked about buying it....and the Aircraft carrier you guys are building is Russian and Russia does not want a Su33 on its own carrieres says a lot
 
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MIG-29K is no where near SU-33. The endurance power of SU33 is far away than MIG-29k. The Russia carrier don't have catapult-assisted takeoff ability, so the SU-33 can't take off at its largest payload. China will definitely develop catapult instead of ski-jumper.

yeah, blah blah blah, why don't you learn how to operate 1 carrier before you chest-thump and make such bold statements? And th e Su-33 is old tech and not really suited to the IN's needs who wanted a multi-role carrier-borne fighter. The RuN who operate the Su-33 are even wanting to replace their Su-33s with the Mig-29K. Bad decision on China's part I'm afraid.


MiG close to Russian Navy MiG-29 deal | World | RIA Novosti

Russian Navy will probably buy 24 MiG-29K fighters designed for India

Russian Navy to buy 24 MiG-29K carrier-based fighters

Russian Navy to buy 24 MiG-29K carrier-based fighters ~ ASIAN DEFENCE

Russian Navy to receive first two MiG-29K fighters this year


Russian Navy to buy 28 MiG-29K carrier-based fighter jets « News Headlines from Russia, Central Asia, Ukraine and Kazakhstan – Interfax Europe


---------- Post added at 12:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 PM ----------

Jaguar IM squad was raised in a time when multi role fighters were not available, with fighters like MKI, Rafale and LCA you don't need such a special sqaud anymore.

Well it's not purely about capability as these assets (1 MKI and 2 Jaguar IM SQDs) are actually under the operational control of the IN but flown and maintained by the IAF (similar to IAF attack helo assets and IA). A similar arrangement may be made for the Rafale.
 
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Not at all, only against the current F18SH, because it's not a capable fighter. I like F15s and 16s and loved the F14! Btw, I also think the Mig 29K has no chance to be selected again, because it has no future. It is not a new fighter, only a naval re-design of the older Migs and the general design wich is decades old, can't be changed anymore. Two vertical tail fins, air intakes without ducts, limited use of composite and RAM material, limited range and payload...
But as I said, I do see chances for the F18SH to be selected by IN, if the Silent Hornet upgrades would not only be offered, but also developed by then.
The best choice imo would be Rafale M, for 3 reasons:

1) commonality to IAF
2) low procurement costs, since it can simply be added to the MMRCA deal
3) possibility of taking certain techs and weapons for a naval AMCA as well, which would ease the development

The downside of Rafale M is, that it has fixed wings and that no twin seat version is available, but it's the option with the highest future potential besides the F35 of course.

By the time the requirement for more aircraft in IN comes, we will be looking at either FGFA or AMCA designs. I'd be happy if AMCA becomes the "F-18" of India and becomes a dedicated Naval stealth fighter while FGFA remains in IAF as the dominant stealth fighter. That way, AMCA will have a dedicated client, have the time and opportunity to further evolve into an even better fighter than it is slated to be and with Navy's leadership attitude, become even a potential export.

---------- Post added at 07:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:50 PM ----------

MIG-29K is no where near SU-33. The endurance power of SU33 is far away than MIG-29k. The Russia carrier don't have catapult-assisted takeoff ability, so the SU-33 can't take off at its largest payload. China will definitely develop catapult instead of ski-jumper.

When you do... then your talk would be appreciated. Before that, we'd prefer taking the words and opinions of the country who designed, developed and operated the Su-33s all these years.

If you didn't know, earlier our Navy wanted the Su-33s. It was the Russian opinion that made us choose the MiG-29Ks.
 
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Well it's not purely about capability as these assets (1 MKI and 2 Jaguar IM SQDs) are actually under the operational control of the IN but flown and maintained by the IAF (similar to IAF attack helo assets and IA). A similar arrangement may be made for the Rafale.


There is only 1 squad of Jaguar IMs, which is currently the only maritime attack squadron and it's fully under IAF control (which I think is wrong, but that's another story). Rafale is meant to come with maritme attack capability, but so far it is not know which weapon IAF wants, since they rejected Exocet for Jaguars initially. The fact that all Rafales will be able to be deployed in maritme attack roles, makes dedicated squadrons for this role unnecessary. Some squads near the costlines might get Exocet, but they will be deployed in all A2A, recon, or strike roles just like other Rafale squads. Similarly, when MKI gets Brahmos, there won't be dedicated maritime attack squads, because integration of Brahmos is part of the upgrades and will be applied to the new procured MKIs as well, be it for anti ship or land attacks. IAF clearly goes multi role and with MKI and Rafale they got the best fighters in this field!

By the time the requirement for more aircraft in IN comes, we will be looking at either FGFA or AMCA designs.

That's not correct, because we can't select the fighter after the carrier is build, it's the other way around! The selection of the fighter (s), decides the layout of the carrier, be it ski jump or catapults, size of elevators, hangar or parking deck, even to know the weight of the fighter (s) is important before the development of the carrier begins.
IAC 2 might come only some years before a naval FGFA or even AMCA can be available, but till then IN needs a capable stopgap solution, just like Mig 29K is until N-LCA will be available.


I'd be happy if AMCA becomes the "F-18" of India and becomes a dedicated Naval stealth fighter while FGFA remains in IAF as the dominant stealth fighter. That way, AMCA will have a dedicated client, have the time and opportunity to further evolve into an even better fighter than it is slated to be and with Navy's leadership attitude, become even a potential export.

That's what I would like to see as well, although I would prefer it to be more capable in A2A than an F18. A 5th carrier fighter project could be even highly interesting for Brazil, since they plan with 2 new carriers in future too and they could not only participate in the fighter but also the carrier development.
 
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Are you kidding me?! MiG-29K is a brand new fighter jet. It has state of the art electronics with the option to move to MiG-35 standards; something on which MRCA was conducted. MiG-29K would go easily for another 20 years.

Come on mate, stay upto date with the models will ya? :)

we see usual delays in defense projects so we would expect the IAC-1 to be operational by even 2016/18 so we may say that induction of IAC-2 may be delayed to even 2022/25. and the IAC-3, which is expected to be a Super Carrier, may be delayed to 2030/35.

so, if Mig29k was fully justified for INS Vikramaditya and IAC-1 because of its balance performance of a2a and a2g roles, a 4.5 gen aircraft, then we would say Rafale, a 4++ aircraft, would be better suited for IAC-2. also production lines of Rafale will have been matured with many upgrades till 2020 onwards. and as Super Carrier IAC-3 would certainly have a naval version of 5th gen stealth PAK FA/ FGFA, it would be better accompanied with IAC-2 with Rafale for overseas operations :tup:
 
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