RAFALE VS F-16 BLOCK52+

[SQ8]

Lets get this out as an ESTABLISHED FACT.
Pakistan has its coffers empty or depleted most of the time, What we get from China, is usually on a lend lease agreement.

Right after IDEAS 2002, we had the cash, we had the world open to us.
We could have bought the Rafale, the EF. and a whole list of other goodies that the military had in mind.
Pakistan was having a growth mania in multiple sectors and the cash was flowing. Yet the PAF chose to invest in an interim buy of F-16's and hedge its money on the J-10.
They knew, that come hell or high water.. the F-16's may not arrive, or any other western equipment. But the Chinese would not hold us back.
They also knew that whilst frankenstienish.. mating European tech with Chinese hardware yields admirable results.
Come 2005 and the earthquake.. the worst did happen.. the funds dried up. And so whilst the F-16 order did take a hit.. the JF was still coming.
The FC-20 project took its shape within deadlines as well.

Now..whilst all of the above is commendable..
Is it enough??

NO

There is no way, par suicidal destruction of the nation.. that the Pakistan military can compete with India on a bullet to bullet basis.
But is that what is required.. ?
Are we looking to fight for three weeks or three months??
Do we expect the Indian military to guess when and where our endgame nuclear option is?
How much do we count on the fear of our missiles ?

To borrow a title from Clancy.
Its the Sum of all fears that the Pakistan military uses as its gauge for war.
Is it the intelligent approach..
Well.. that is for another thread.

I only wished to clarify that the PAF has done well when it came to choosing its options with what was available.

 

[Luftwaffe]

MastanKhan...Until and unless, your aircraft's weapon does not have the same reach as that of the enemy's aircraft---the engagement will be based on distances suitable to the opponent with longer range. Once the enemy starts dictating the rules of engagement and you are the one chasing to get engaged---that is not a good position to be in.

To add more to it, It doesn't always work sending 4/6 against 2 superior planes thinking you'll come back defeating them. It is like AI they learn from the first mission the briefing and debriefing takes place and plan B is put into gear next time your sparking 4 tiny jets won't make any impact on those 2 pairs heading your way with superior package, we shouldn't take them as fools.

 

[MastanKhan]

MastanKhan...Until and unless, your aircraft's weapon does not have the same reach as that of the enemy's aircraft---the engagement will be based on distances suitable to the opponent with longer range. Once the enemy starts dictating the rules of engagement and you are the one chasing to get engaged---that is not a good position to be in.

To add more to it, It doesn't always work sending 4/6 against 2 superior planes thinking you'll come back defeating them. It is like AI they learn from the first mission the briefing and debriefing takes place and plan B is put into gear next time your sparking 4 tiny jets won't make any impact on those 2 pairs heading your way with superior package, we shouldn't take them as fools.

Luftwaffe,

thank you for the comments----I was trying to give a little too much benefit of doubt in that case----you are right----the oppoent will be making changes right after the very first engagements----if they had already not done so from the begining---why do they ever need to come in close contact---if they can strike from farther away---they have the numbers----they have the technical edge---so what is missing.

 

[nForce]

MastanKhan...Until and unless, your aircraft's weapon does not have the same reach as that of the enemy's aircraft---the engagement will be based on distances suitable to the opponent with longer range. Once the enemy starts dictating the rules of engagement and you are the one chasing to get engaged---that is not a good position to be in.

To add more to it, It doesn't always work sending 4/6 against 2 superior planes thinking you'll come back defeating them. It is like AI they learn from the first mission the briefing and debriefing takes place and plan B is put into gear next time your sparking 4 tiny jets won't make any impact on those 2 pairs heading your way with superior package, we shouldn't take them as fools.

considering the fictional scenario of yet another air war between India and Pakistan (though I pray it wont happen),the situation will not be like 4-6 PAF jets against 2 IAF jets,rather it will be other way around,since,as of now IAF not only holds a margin of technical superiority,but a numerical superiority as well,unless China decides to join the party.

 

[MastanKhan]

I only wished to clarify that the PAF has done well when it came to choosing its options with what was available.

Santro,

I agree to all of your post except for this last line-----this has been the bone of contention---paf has done horribly in the last 25 plus years---the results are right in front of us----.

Then as a whole the millitary decisions after 9/11 have been terrible for pakistan---not taking out al qaeda out right away, has been the catalyst of all the problems that we are facing today. We are ultimately going to kill them now-----but if we had any vision at all----we could have killed them 9 years ago and reaped the benefits-----bad decisions, one after the other have left us in a quandary.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Satisfys me.

 

[SQ8]

Santro,

I agree to all of your post except for this last line-----this has been the bone of contention---paf has done horribly in the last 25 plus years---the results are right in front of us----.

Then as a whole the millitary decisions after 9/11 have been terrible for pakistan---not taking out al qaeda out right away, has been the catalyst of all the problems that we are facing today. We are ultimately going to kill them now-----but if we had any vision at all----we could have killed them 9 years ago and reaped the benefits-----bad decisions, one after the other have left us in a quandary.

From the corruption infested Zia era.. the PAF has improved a lot. And till the Commando leader really went nuts... It was returning to the professional excellence that was expected of it.
The problem is the same as the whole nation.. Leadership.
When you put a yes man on top, the rest of the organization falls like a house of cards.
Even today.. the May 2 incident. Pilots morale is lower than it was after 71.
They feel let down by their leadership..

However, not all leadership has been bad.. and not all bad leadership has done equal damage.
The current chief is a yes man, but procurement plans have been set before him.. and under him as DCAS(ops).
They are in my view; THE best possible modernization path the PAF could have set for itself.

I can see why you would be apprehensive with Chinese equipment.. compared to western equivalents.
However.. I work with their electronics on a daily basis now... developing on them. And they have improved a lot.
Perhaps you would remember better the reputation your parents may have had for "japani maal".
And the less said the better as to how japanese electronics are regarded today.

The europeans arent all "clean" either in their policies..
Siemens reps have their hands dirty in the procurement games of Pakistan, many times selling inferior equipment to us compared to other suppliers.

The whole Al-qaeda debate is something else, and I agree with that.. them.. and the rest of these false "islamists".

 

[notorious_eagle]

Satisfys me.

AESA RB 2: It is supposed to be operational in 2012, compare that to AESA radars that are operational on American legacy fighters for quite some time now.

RECO NG: Again, will be operational in 2012 while the Americans have already operationalized DB110 which has superior capabilities as a Reccon pod.

As i said before, a decade late to the party. Rafale's success in the international market speaks for itself, its high costs dont justify the capabilities this Aircraft offers.

 

[John Doe]

@Santro:

I am totally with you about Chinese Technology and how they have made amazing progress. While copycat behaviour is still overwhelming, innovation is growing faster in China than anywhere else.

I would not say that making a bet on Chinese tech is a bad move.

 

[notorious_eagle]

f IAF is not able to get Air-Supremacy then it does not mean we got defeated....Even if we are able to support our troops in pockets and deny you any of that to your's we still end up as winner....

Anything less than an overwhelming victory against Pakistan's Armed Forces is a defeat, if the defender is able to thwart the attack from the invader even by taking more casualties, its the defender whose going to be the victor. To be able to effectively support your ground troops, the IAF will need air supremacy in that pocket of the theatre and you can bet that PAF will contest the skies in that pocket where fighting is heavy. Although this is open to debate as the PAF always has the option of opening up another front.

One more comment - PAF do need to cross border in case of a war for the same reason IAF will have to cross....Ballistic as well as cruise missiles are on both sides...if you are believing they don't need to then you are plane wrong...Anyhow let's get back to topic...

For argument sakes the IAF does launches cruise missile strikes at PA's positions, than PA will retaliate and launch strikes at PA's position. The question is, does that fullfill the Indian objective of punishing Pakistan? I dont think so, for India to effectively come out the victor and fulfil its objectives, it will need to find, engage and destroy a huge chunk of Pakistan's Armour. Launching a bunch of strikes will invite counter strikes, does not serves any objective. It might serve the objectives of the Americans whom launched strikes against Libyan positions because they are immune to any counter strikes from Libya while India is not.

 

[Storm Force]

Notirus

A PAF counter strike is eaxctly What the INDIANS are hoping for.

Whislt a defense posture gives the inferior PAF some sam cover& radar cover over their home air space ......... OVER INDIA they will be sitting ducks.

Try sending oudated mirages and a NOT SO MATURED JF17 into this below

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/52874-indian-radar-systems.html

The IAF will have a field day.

NOW a cruise missle counter strike on its own may be diffrent. BUT again how accurate and how effective will this...

 

[majesticpankaj]

As per my understanding, debate has a underlying assumptions that he IAF will attack and PAF will defend which is flawed because if initially IAF will have a bloody nose they will switch to option B (which is rightly pointed out by Mastan Sir).... numerical and technological superiority will still favor the IAF... I believe that IAF will have well planned doctrine to tackle the threat posed by PAF and vise versa...

But again, as again pakistan is a small country which have few bases to knock down as compared to India... along with numerical and technological superiority, the strategic depth will favor India

 

[notorious_eagle]

Notirus

A PAF counter strike is eaxctly What the INDIANS are hoping for.

Whislt a defense posture gives the inferior PAF some sam cover& radar cover over their home air space ......... OVER INDIA they will be sitting ducks.

Try sending oudated mirages and a NOT SO MATURED JF17 into this below

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/52874-indian-radar-systems.html

PAF has long range stand off weapons that can hit targets from a distance of 60km and 120 km with pin point accuracy, is that enough for you in terms of a deadly strike. Those outdated Mirages are capable of launching H2 and H4 that can hit their targets with deadly accuracy. PAF is not stupid enough to go inside India and carry out a long ranged strike, if their is a strike than it will be in a limited corridor after conducting SEAD operations and i am sure your aware of the fact that the F16's are masters in this role.

The IAF will have a field day.

NOW a cruise missle counter strike on its own may be diffrent. BUT again how accurate and how effective will this...

Accurate enough to hit its target with pin point accuracy, haven't you been following the development of Pakistan's cruise missiles? PAF and PA have conducted several tests and they all have been successful, the missiles hit their mark.

I still see the quality of your posts, you haven't matured a day , if you had than you wouldnt have made stupid and foolish remarks like these that you have made in these posts.

 

[majesticpankaj]

PAF has long range stand off weapons that can hit targets from a distance of 60km and 120 km with pin point accuracy, is that enough for you in terms of a deadly strike. Those outdated Mirages are capable of launching H2 and H4 that can hit their targets with deadly accuracy. PAF is not stupid enough to go inside India and carry out a long ranged strike, if their is a strike than it will be in a limited corridor after conducting SEAD operations and i am sure your aware of the fact that the F16's are masters in this role.



Accurate enough to hit its target with pin point accuracy, haven't you been following the development of Pakistan's cruise missiles? PAF and PA have conducted several tests and they all have been successful, the missiles hit their mark.

I still see the quality of your posts, you haven't matured a day , if you had than you wouldnt have made stupid and foolish remarks like these that you have made in these posts.

If u think PA and PAF can act defensively so does IA and IAF can do......

Moreover the fact is that war can't be fought in isolation... sorry to say to fought a war u need a lot of money which Pakistan doesn't have..

as far escaping ur cruise missiles.. that's why we are purchasing this deadly birds....

 

[Luftwaffe]

AESA RB 2: It is supposed to be operational in 2012, compare that to AESA radars that are operational on American legacy fighters for quite some time now.
RECO NG: Again, will be operational in 2012 while the Americans have already operationalized DB110 which has superior capabilities as a Reccon pod.
As i said before, a decade late to the party. Rafale's success in the international market speaks for itself, its high costs dont justify the capabilities this Aircraft offers.

You failed to answer how is Rafale and its systems a decade old. Are you comparing it to US? Which other country is a decade ahead except for US...Your FC-20 will be operational in 2014/15 here too the year is just a speculation, it can't even come close to F-16 block 52 we will see when it does that. US has not offered any AESA radar to any block 52 operator except US itself and U.A.E rightly because U.A.E funded F-16 blk 60 program and ofcourse Japanese F-2. Even Saudis will get AESA on board their newly ordered F-15SAs in next 2 years, So stop comparing it to US legacy fighters talk about that part where US is offering it to F-16 operators specifically and as a standard because Dassault is going to offer AESA based Rafale once its fully operational unlike US that only offer when it wants to. Please like I said I take the word of Dassault Aviation not yours or anyone elses. Capabilities are well beyond expectations. Let not finger point indians regarding mrca and political pressure they have evaluated all of them you can tell me you side of the story why indians rejected F-18 SH with AESA and all the capabilities you are talking about.

Russian are working on their AESA which is offered but not operational only when the orders from outside comes in and probably will be deployed by 2015 on SU family so aren't they a decade late. Chinese also would be fielding AESA's by the same time a decade late huh...S.Korea no AESA onboard F-15s apg 63(v1), no AESA for Japanese F-15 J/DJ. So how the hell is Rafale late to this field.