MastanKhan
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quality of this post is as high as post of Joe shearer. very good post.
IND151----drunken-monke-----welcome to the forum
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quality of this post is as high as post of Joe shearer. very good post.
To my thinking all these arguments are deeply flawed, at least so far as PAF ought to be concerned -- Pakistan needs aircraft it can manufacture, operate and maintain, in substantial numbers - and it's clear that these aircraft cannot be any Western aircraft - with the West, our focus should be particular sub-systems, avionics, guidance systems, electro-optical sensors and such.
The problem is PAF is having the trouble getting these as well. We aren't even getting armed Falco UAV so to think of getting western avionics is a bit far fetched but lets hope.
Then we have to develop the targeting and fire control features either ourselves or with assistance -- and please spare us the "no one will help us" bit, it's a world of commercial concerns.
Rafale is slightly better than F-16 block 52+. But I dont see anything that justifices about two times bigger price. Everything what Rafale can do can be done by block52+ as well.
Evaluating...and approval..
A couple of different things.
eg
Rafale.. We had done the deal for the Agosta's.. Money is the best diplomatic overture to the French.
Two Evaluation flights were done.. Aircraft found exceeding expectations.. not in a nice way when it came to the costs.. just for the jets and its associated equipment, logistical changes etc.
EF. One eval flight taken.. (by eval, means a full op pilot getting a checkride in the jet).. Jet found meeting all expectations..
diplomatic relations with one partner country found lacking expectations.. Sanction free requirement found not meeting expectations at all.
Gripen.. Jet found too similar in ASR req for mainstay future ADA fighters.. without offering significant A2G advances.
Mig-29.. Jet found good for A2A.. sucked at A2G
Su-27 with Su-30 roadmap.. Jet found appealing with european electronics.. Indian lobby not found appealing.
F-16.. jet sanction prone, big no no.. jet does however, allow for a large off market purchase of spare parts..
Logistical costs for jet found to be much less when compared to european alternatives.. good 5-8 year stop gap.. jet bought.
J-10.. jet first evaluated, found meeting some ASR requirements.. Jet sanction free, Jet customizable , Jet has lots of space for improvement.
Improve as you wish, without tech export barriers. Jet can be improved to match or exceed performances of contemporaries.
Jet also costs less than contemporaries.
Buy the Jet.
Hi,
It is called DUE DILIGENCE ---- which means that have you done the best to your capabilities and abilities and resources ----have you done all you can ---and the bottom line on this judgement day is no ---- . Where does the money issue come into force--- the problem was that paf was mentally not ready to part with 85 mil per aircraft for the rafale---- because they had their beauty available at 50 mil ---or not ready to pay 40 mil per aircraft for the qatari mirages---.
In every major weapons purchase time is of essence --- once you fall back and with limited resources, there is hardly any time to catchup---and that is what has happened over here --- paf was over zealous about its jf 17 project---it was over zealous in procuring the J 10b --- and not understanding the peculiarities of integration, cancelled deals, no weapons system ready for their air craft, engine issues -----is there an ending to this list.
The projection of jf 17 was----the plane is going to get ready and it will be ready for service --- and I was screaming my head off ---integration integration integration---- 5 to 10 years time for integration ---- and even one of our very senior retd. air force officers disagreed with me ----says maybe 1 year--- I got lambasted on this issue from every senior member from mods to admins TT etc on this site --- and I am saying to myself --- all these reading that I have done, even if it is fiction---everyone talks about 'integration' how difficult and time consuming integration is --- the failures ----the set backs --- contractors balking --- political pressures --- weapons problems --- engine issues --- a myriads of things that go wrong --- .
I did not have the right word for it before ----now it did come to me --- integration is like a gestation period. It takes 9 months for a woman to have a baby ---- it takes 5 to 10 years for an aircraft to be fully integrated into service--- from the date of first full time production date ---.
And it has not changed for the jf 17 either----after it gets its fully operational sd 10 and an appropriate radar, it will be in that time frame.
With india --- it has always been force projection---they have always looked at the 'parity factor' between the defence and strike forces as well as pakistan's political and economic position.
All pakistan needed to do is to stay within the 80% capabilitiy of what they have---not in numbers but in mano a mano abitilty for the fighter aircraft to take out the opponent--- and that is where paf has faltered badly----. cont
To my thinking all these arguments are deeply flawed, at least so far as PAF ought to be concerned -- Pakistan needs aircraft it can manufacture, operate and maintain, in substantial numbers - and it's clear that these aircraft cannot be any Western aircraft - with the West, our focus should be particular sub-systems, avionics, guidance systems, electro-optical sensors and such.
Said the man who cant take anything negative about India..
talk about jumping on the bandwagon..
Integration, procurement...
Perhaps the fountain of kickbacks that came with the rafale went unnoticed..
Or the redundancy of buying 12 mirage 2000's.. and then spending the equivalent of a force "integrating" their supply chain..
Perhaps one should look at the model of automobiles and their integration and introduction process.. instead of hopping with glee when a naysayer.. a respected one at that.. but still a naysayer comes up with an argument.
Wonder why the whole world cries fleet commonality.. why the spare parts of a car with a production run of 100000 cost much less than those of a production run of about 1000.
Why its usually more profitable to set up entire showrooms for the former type of car than the latter..
The PAF obsession with the F-16.. should have ended back in the 90's if not for the country's dire finances..
many cried aghast when the PAF again purchased Block 52's.. As if being bitten three times was not enough.
However.. what none saw was the short term solution the F-16 provided.
It can be delivered quicker.. it took less time, less money to train its pilots..
and less time to "integrate" it into the PAF's force.
For all the media whines.. the interviews..
Nothing stops the PAF from sending these jets wherever they wish.
And whilst there are the bells and whistles for it if we try to pry it open.. to take a deeper peek inside or let the Chinese take one.
There are no bells and whistles, nor shut off switches that stop this aircraft from flying across the border and dropping a JDAM or two.
The less said the better about the JF..
It is where it needs to be in its lifecycle today.
The J-10B, is the tip of the sword till the 2025 timeframe...
Its decided, approved.. by people who have spent their entire lives in the AF, Who have flown and trained with the Americans, The Brits..
The only thing that comes between such well-though out endeavors.. and not short sighted .. cherry seeking expensive purchases.. is the usual sycophantic Machiavellian suckups that roam the halls of AHQ..
Such people are easy prey for defense contractors.. and the bureaucratic kickback waterfall.
There is a fine line between a cautious approach.. and habitual pessimism.
Had the PAF kept the latter, it would be in worse shape than it is today..
A logistical, educational and operational nightmare.
The myth of kill switches has been rebuffed by Retd AVM Shahid LAteef. He stated on record that PAF is free to take its aircrafts where ever it wants in case of hostilities. So that one has been put to sleep.Hi,
The issue is of the nature of sanctions from U S----if blk 52 is our only primary aircraft---the u s has our ballz in our hands----but if we have diversity---like the rafale alongwith the blk 52-----that gives us an edge---the u s has to think seriously---do they really want to do it----also it won't hurt our capabilities as much---thirdly---we won't have to face off the rafale alongwith the su30's---and as we would have had rafales for many a years by now----we would have been well trained to operate those aircraft to it max capabilities.
The americans could not neutralize our radars as they could on the blk 52 nor could they neutralize the amraams 120's flying off from the blk 52's.
The myth of kill switches has been rebuffed by Retd AVM Shahid LAteef. He stated on record that PAF is free to take its aircrafts where ever it wants in case of hostilities. So that one has been put to sleep.
Araz