RAFALE VS F-16 BLOCK52+

[Luftwaffe]

Good luck trying to go offensive on a big enemy like India!! In an conventional scenario, You will get your arse burnt so badly , it will be smelt all the way upto Canada!!!

So you give up already, If conventionally your arse will get burned by indians then why even peruse for any projects. If what I said gave you Anger try managing your anger Your PAF's action will come to haunt you it will be smelt all the way upto UK before it touch down in Canada.[/B]

Here we noticed the negative approach, "do you think game would change". So the suggestion is to not buy since game can't be changed by a couple of squadrons this means a single squadron of F-16s too can't/won't change the game. That was a terrible negative assessment. The same finger points at those who hooray for 60/70 F-16s. Seems some people over here have lost their faith in the Air Force and the ground teams that they would not be able to cope with the technology. Please spare us of such lame excuses and nonsense. If Pakistan could deal back then with brand spanking new F-16s during 1980s with technology relatively very new at that time then surely we are able to deal with Rafales.

Let me again remind men over here of the fact that thailand and vietnam and a few other nations are operating SU-30/SU-27 and Gripens so why are we reluctant going on backfoot. Its a shame people don't have credible evidence of PAF unable to cope with Rafales and always have excuses.
So the question is why did PAF test trial Mirage 2000s/Tornados/Gripen/Rafale Just to have joy ride?? If PAF was unable to get these then what was the point in testing them were Europeans fools to let PAF fool them.

So if india is going to burn PAF's arse then why even go for thunders and imaginary FC-20s...go hit you selves, I stay corrected today's Air Force need to have the punch to go offensive as well. You and like minded men have given up that is all clear from your post. If that is the psyche of PAF then there it is the beginning of the end of the Air Force.

And no money was never the problem, when you people were toying with Mirage 2000s and Tornados that wasn't for fun and then you ditched it for cheap F-7s not once but twice where did the rest of money go. Let me remind you again $3.1 Billion dollars for 18 F-16s, weapons and other systems. That could have been channeled to 36 Rafales easily and Yes we could have maintained in your own words we are flying old french mirages due to financial trouble though its not true we could have replaced many of them in favor of a better new platform to give an all out advantage. Common sense old airframes consume more money.

 

[SQ8]

Good luck trying to go offensive on a big enemy like India!! In an conventional scenario, You will get your arse burnt so badly , it will be smelt all the way upto Canada!!!

So you give up already, If conventionally your arse will get burned by indians then why even peruse for any projects. If what I said gave you Anger try managing your anger Your PAF's action will come to haunt you it will be smelt all the way upto UK before it touch down in Canada.[/B]

Here we noticed the negative approach, "do you think game would change". So the suggestion is to not buy since game can't be changed by a couple of squadrons this means a single squadron of F-16s too can't/won't change the game. That was a terrible negative assessment. The same finger points at those who hooray for 60/70 F-16s. Seems some people over here have lost their faith in the Air Force and the ground teams that they would not be able to cope with the technology. Please spare us of such lame excuses and nonsense. If Pakistan could deal back then with brand spanking new F-16s during 1980s with technology relatively very new at that time then surely we are able to deal with Rafales.

Let me again remind men over here of the fact that thailand and vietnam and a few other nations are operating SU-30/SU-27 and Gripens so why are we reluctant going on backfoot. Its a shame people don't have credible evidence of PAF unable to cope with Rafales and always have excuses.
So the question is why did PAF test trial Mirage 2000s/Tornados/Gripen/Rafale Just to have joy ride?? If PAF was unable to get these then what was the point in testing them were Europeans fools to let PAF fool them.

So if india is going to burn PAF's arse then why even go for thunders and imaginary FC-20s...go hit you selves, I stay corrected today's Air Force need to have the punch to go offensive as well. You and like minded men have given up that is all clear from your post. If that is the psyche of PAF then there it is the beginning of the end of the Air Force.

And no money was never the problem, when you people were toying with Mirage 2000s and Tornados that wasn't for fun and then you ditched it for cheap F-7s not once but twice where did the rest of money go. Let me remind you again $3.1 Billion dollars for 18 F-16s, weapons and other systems. That could have been channeled to 36 Rafales easily and Yes we could have maintained in your own words we are flying old french mirages due to financial trouble though its not true we could have replaced many of them in favor of a better new platform to give an all out advantage. Common sense old airframes consume more money.

Evaluating...and approval..
A couple of different things.

eg

Rafale.. We had done the deal for the Agosta's.. Money is the best diplomatic overture to the French.
Two Evaluation flights were done.. Aircraft found exceeding expectations.. not in a nice way when it came to the costs.. just for the jets and its associated equipment, logistical changes etc.

EF. One eval flight taken.. (by eval, means a full op pilot getting a checkride in the jet).. Jet found meeting all expectations..
diplomatic relations with one partner country found lacking expectations.. Sanction free requirement found not meeting expectations at all.

Gripen.. Jet found too similar in ASR req for mainstay future ADA fighters.. without offering significant A2G advances.

Mig-29.. Jet found good for A2A.. sucked at A2G
Su-27 with Su-30 roadmap.. Jet found appealing with european electronics.. Indian lobby not found appealing.

F-16.. jet sanction prone, big no no.. jet does however, allow for a large off market purchase of spare parts..
Logistical costs for jet found to be much less when compared to european alternatives.. good 5-8 year stop gap.. jet bought.

J-10.. jet first evaluated, found meeting some ASR requirements.. Jet sanction free, Jet customizable , Jet has lots of space for improvement.
Improve as you wish, without tech export barriers. Jet can be improved to match or exceed performances of contemporaries.
Jet also costs less than contemporaries.
Buy the Jet.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

So---in a weapons purchase when does the TIME FACTOR come into force-----. This is the crucial most commodity of any kind----. You can't come back after 10 years later and buy this item that you should have had in your arsenal 10 years ago----. Things don't work in that manner----and then you can't claim that look now we have them----as you us wanted to but it and they don't work as you told that they would----. 10 years later means 15 years into service and integration----which means that the opponent has it own project maturing which will take it further----and we will lag behind further more.

 

[Bossman]

Hi,

It is called DUE DILIGENCE ---- which means that have you done the best to your capabilities and abilities and resources ----have you done all you can ---and the bottom line on this judgement day is no ---- . Where does the money issue come into force--- the problem was that paf was mentally not ready to part with 85 mil per aircraft for the rafale---- because they had their beauty available at 50 mil ---or not ready to pay 40 mil per aircraft for the qatari mirages---.

In every major weapons purchase time is of essence --- once you fall back and with limited resources, there is hardly any time to catchup---and that is what has happened over here --- paf was over zealous about its jf 17 project---it was over zealous in procuring the J 10b --- and not understanding the peculiarities of integration, cancelled deals, no weapons system ready for their air craft, engine issues -----is there an ending to this list.

The projection of jf 17 was----the plane is going to get ready and it will be ready for service --- and I was screaming my head off ---integration integration integration---- 5 to 10 years time for integration ---- and even one of our very senior retd. air force officers disagreed with me ----says maybe 1 year--- I got lambasted on this issue from every senior member from mods to admins TT etc on this site --- and I am saying to myself --- all these reading that I have done, even if it is fiction---everyone talks about 'integration' how difficult and time consuming integration is --- the failures ----the set backs --- contractors balking --- political pressures --- weapons problems --- engine issues --- a myriads of things that go wrong --- .

I did not have the right word for it before ----now it did come to me --- integration is like a gestation period. It takes 9 months for a woman to have a baby ---- it takes 5 to 10 years for an aircraft to be fully integrated into service--- from the date of first full time production date ---.

And it has not changed for the jf 17 either----after it gets its fully operational sd 10 and an appropriate radar, it will be in that time frame.

Mastaan,

you are wrong. For modern combat jets, weapons intergration and upgrades is an ongoing process. Take F16 for example, it first flew in 1970s but new weapons are still be integrated in it today. Did blk 15 have AMRAAMs? Has Eurofighter or Rafale reached their potential. Why the Meteor was tested for the first on the Eurofighter only a week or so ago. More fighters are not like babies in gestation, they are like new born babies which keep growing and growing.

 

[Luftwaffe]

For modern jet weapons intergration and upgrades is an ongoing process. Take F16 for example, it first flew in 1970s but new weapons are still be integrated in it today. Did blk 15 have AMRAAMs? Has Eurofighter or Rafale reached their potential.

All current weapons that passes and receives Operational Status are already integrated. What new weapons are being integrated in F-16s today?? Could you list a few of them. AMRAAMS were tested on F-15s and later F-18s and lastly on F-16s. EF-2000/Rafale has fullfilled the requirements in their respected Air Forces that is why they are operational understand the word "Operational".

 

[Bossman]

For modern jet weapons intergration and upgrades is an ongoing process. Take F16 for example, it first flew in 1970s but new weapons are still be integrated in it today. Did blk 15 have AMRAAMs? Has Eurofighter or Rafale reached their potential.

All current weapons that passes and receives Operational Status are already integrated. What new weapons are being integrated in F-16s today?? Could you list a few of them. AMRAAMS were tested on F-15s and later F-18s and lastly on F-16s. EF-2000/Rafale has fullfilled the requirements in their respected Air Forces that is why they are operational understand the word "Operational".

For starter Eurofighter has been operational for years as a "Multirole Aircraft" but it has very limited ground attack ability.

"The Typhoon is a multi-role fighter with maturing air-to-ground capabilities. A comprehensive air-to-ground attack capability including Paveway IV, EGBU-16 bombs and a higher degree of automation will be achieved for all partner nations with the Phase 1 Enhancements currently in development. Synthetic Aperture Radar is expected to be fielded as part of the AESA radar upgrade starting in 2013 which will give the Eurofighter an all-weather ground attack capability. The absence of such a capability is believed to have been a factor in the type's rejection from Singapore's fighter competition in 2005. At the time it was claimed that Singapore was concerned about the delivery timescale and the ability of the Eurofighter partner nations to fund the current capability packages. With the planned Phase 2 Enhancements Eurofighter GmbH hopes to increase the appeal of Typhoon to possible export customers and to make the aircraft more useful to partner air forces."

 

[Bossman]

Now for the Rafale, again a "Multirole" aircraft which has been "operational" for years.

"Initial deliveries of the Rafale M were to the F1 ("France 1") standard. This meant that the aircraft was suitable for air-to-air combat, replacing the F-8 Crusader as the Aviation Navale's carrier-based fighter, but not equipped or armed for air-to-ground operations. Actual deliveries (to Flotille 11 some time after 2007) are to the "F2" standard, giving air-to-ground capability, and replacing the Dassault-Breguet Super Étendard in the ground attack role and the Dassault Étendard IVP in the reconnaissance role. This will leave the Rafale M as the only fixed-wing combat aircraft flown by the Aviation Navale, and plans are to upgrade all airframes to the "F3" standard, with terrain-following 3D radar and nuclear capability, from early in the decade following 2010.This upgrade has been brought forwards to 2010 for the first 10 French Navy Rafale F-1s"

In case of JF17, PAF first opted for a ground attack version because A5s needed immediate replacement.

AIM 120 became operational with Blk 25. BLK 15 and earlier versions had very limited BVR capability with AIM 7. Integration of AMRAAM AIM 120D has just been completed for F16s

 

[Luftwaffe]

For starter Eurofighter has been operational for years as a "Multirole Aircraft" but it has very limited ground attack ability.

"The Typhoon is a multi-role fighter with maturing air-to-ground capabilities. A comprehensive air-to-ground attack capability including Paveway IV, EGBU-16 bombs and a higher degree of automation will be achieved for all partner nations with the Phase 1 Enhancements currently in development. Synthetic Aperture Radar is expected to be fielded as part of the AESA radar upgrade starting in 2013 which will give the Eurofighter an all-weather ground attack capability. The absence of such a capability is believed to have been a factor in the type's rejection from Singapore's fighter competition in 2005. At the time it was claimed that Singapore was concerned about the delivery timescale and the ability of the Eurofighter partner nations to fund the current capability packages. With the planned Phase 2 Enhancements Eurofighter GmbH hopes to increase the appeal of Typhoon to possible export customers and to make the aircraft more useful to partner air forces."

You are talking from the perspective of export. Euro Fighter has fullfilled its role in RAF, look at the export customers of EF-2000 then come back and tell us if EF-2000 has not been up its promises.
Initially EF-2000 had an air superiority role and A2G was covered by Torndados. Now it Typhoons are taking up similar roles you must be fooling people not to mention Libyan Successful Operations.
The Typhoon, produced by Britain's BAE Systems, Italy's Finmeccanica and pan-European aerospace firm EADS, has been attacking ground targets with laser guided bombs alongside the Tornado and Dassault's Rafale for more than three months sufficient credentials to declare Typhoons as Multirole.

 

[Bossman]

You are talking from the perspective of export. Euro Fighter has fullfilled its role in RAF, look at the export customers of EF-2000 then come back and tell us if EF-2000 has not been up its promises.
Initially EF-2000 had an air superiority role and A2G was covered by Torndados. Now it Typhoons are taking up similar roles you must be fooling people not to mention Libyan Successful Operations.
The Typhoon, produced by Britain's BAE Systems, Italy's Finmeccanica and pan-European aerospace firm EADS, has been attacking ground targets with laser guided bombs alongside the Tornado and Dassault's Rafale for more than three months sufficient credentials to declare Typhoons as Multirole.

Don't talk about the current status. When was the Typhoon inducted in the RAF and when did it achieve even a semblence of a multirole aircraft?

 

[MastanKhan]

Mastaan,

you are wrong. For modern combat jets, weapons intergration and upgrades is an ongoing process. Take F16 for example, it first flew in 1970s but new weapons are still be integrated in it today. Did blk 15 have AMRAAMs? Has Eurofighter or Rafale reached their potential. Why the Meteor was tested for the first on the Eurofighter only a week or so ago. More fighters are not like babies in gestation, they are like new born babies which keep growing and growing.

Hi,

Thank you very much for your comments----even though integration is an ongoing process----my comments are made towards the initial startup time for a fresh aircraft manufactrured---.


Other comments----regarding the F 16---that every other nation has them and we can get the parts if we have problems with the U S---like sanctions----well---a news for to those who think we can----we got our aircraft running---because the u s looked the other way when we got the second hand parts---if the u s decides that it wants to enforce the sanctions---it is very easy for it to do that under the current conditions on wot and the fear factor of being arrested----.

No wholesaler or broker would sell to pak if there is fear of imminent arrest---like in case of the F 14---some were trying to sell parts to iran---they are in jail.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Don't talk about the current status.

You are talking about on going integration process and then you are telling me not to talk about current status?

When was the Typhoon inducted in the RAF and when did it achieve even a semblence of a multirole aircraft?

Because Tornadoes were covering that A2G part. Typhoon already had A2G capabilities to many extend.
If JFT can cover A2G role then a 2 steps ahead Typhoon had already part covered.

 

[Bossman]

Don't talk about the current status.

You are talking about on going integration process and then you are telling me not to talk about current status?

When was the Typhoon inducted in the RAF and when did it achieve even a semblence of a multirole aircraft?

Because Tornadoes were covering that A2G part. Typhoon already had A2G capabilities to many extend.
If JFT can cover A2G role then a 2 steps ahead Typhoon had already part covered.

The first Typhoon was delivered to RAF in 2003 and it did not achieve an interim multi role capability until mid 2008 and RAF still has to achieve full multirole capability. By their standards, JF 17 seems to be moving much faster. So yours Mastaan argument does not hold any water.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Typhoon had the capabilities of being multirole it was limited because it was initially an Air Superiority Fighter. I would give you example of a smaller lighter Jet like JFT that is being inducted in the squadron who primarily role is A2G but at the same time it is capable of A2A, common sense is Typhoons could do all that. You have to understand there were/are 5+ Tornadoes squadrons for A2G role.

By their standards, JF 17 seems to be moving much faster.

Because Pakistan has no other choice.

 

[MastanKhan]

The first Typhoon was delivered to RAF in 2003 and it did not achieve an interim multi role capability until mid 2008 and RAF still has to achieve full multirole capability. By their standards, JF 17 seems to be moving much faster. So yours Mastaan argument does not hold any water.

Sir,

Does this statement reflect the term ' OXYMORON' or what----by your example---you are supporting my stand---but by the comment you are negating it----make up your mind----what you want to say..

 

[notorious_eagle]

You are talking from the perspective of export. Euro Fighter has fullfilled its role in RAF, look at the export customers of EF-2000 then come back and tell us if EF-2000 has not been up its promises.
Initially EF-2000 had an air superiority role and A2G was covered by Torndados. Now it Typhoons are taking up similar roles you must be fooling people not to mention Libyan Successful Operations.
The Typhoon, produced by Britain's BAE Systems, Italy's Finmeccanica and pan-European aerospace firm EADS, has been attacking ground targets with laser guided bombs alongside the Tornado and Dassault's Rafale for more than three months sufficient credentials to declare Typhoons as Multirole.

And who exactly are the export customers? The Euro partners are reducing their numbers because the aircraft is simply too expensive and offers the same capabilities that the American legacy fighters offer at less than half the price. The Saudis don't count because money for them is not an issue and they wanted a Non American option. The future of the Eurofighter and the planned upgrades largely relies on their order to India because the partners are simply unwilling to allocate more funds because the program has already cost them close to 37 billion pounds, compare that to the F22 program that cost $60 billion to develop. The European Governments are getting hit from centre left right for the project because the fighter aircraft is a decade late and is simply to expensive, it has gone way over budget. Only recently the Eurofighter has achieved the status of a true multi role aircraft, compare that to other heavy weights whom are moving on to their 5th Generation Fighter Aircraft Programs. There is nothing revolutionary about the Rafale and the Eurofighter that justifies the cost their aircraft manufacturers are charging. Lets not go to the Libyan campaign because the other side is not fielding a serious defence, the Americans with their initial campaign already took out most of the important targets. Without the American air power, the number of sorties have gone down because the cost of each sortie for Rafale and Eurofighter exceeds than those of the F16's.