RAFALE VS F-16 BLOCK52+

[IND151]

Hi,

Araz'z post really disappointed me----. Over the years what I have talked about the procurement of major weapons system is to look at what you want to get---in comparison to what the opponent has---. Because at the end of the day---you ain't going to be playing your tricks on yourself----you will have to either go out and hunt down the opponent or defend your space from the enemy's incursion----so at the end of the day---you will be measuring your's against their's.

So, while you are making your purchase, you also have to be concerned that the opponent also wants to get the best for the buck---. Out of the multiple option which two are at the top of your list---if you go for the top best---the opponent will go for the second best---but if the opponent cannot get the top best under any circumstance---then is the top best really the best deal----when the second best is so close to the # 1 choice----. obviously not.

What I mean is that competeing between the F 16 and mirage 2000---on the paper the F 16 was a great deal----but strategically---the mirage 2000 would have been a true coupe de grace on the opponent---because the opponent never had a chance of getting the F 16 27 years ago---and giving the opponent a shot a the second best just killed the advantage that paf had.

Second reason why the mirage----everybody wanted the F 16's---it was a status symbol---a show piece---something to walk with a swagger---but for a practical airforce like the paf----it was the mirage 2000 which was the natural choice---switching over from the mirage 3's and 5's-----.

The F 16 was like a beautiful girl with a thousand and one suiters---she was arrogant---she was ignorant---she was too much immeresd in her beauty---mirage 2000 was like the ugly sister----the nobody wanted but the one which could do it all as good or better than the pretty one----you can fu-ck the face for so long---after a while there are other things that come out---she has other suiters---she is not loyal---she wants to play around---she wants to take your money and do the american thing---run away.

That is exactly what happened with paf----the pretty girl that they got betrothed to----took them right to the cleaners----shoved it right up so hard that the screams of the paf have been heard world wide---.

The french were looking upto the pakistani for taking on the mirage 2000 and they were let down---.

It is extremely ignorant to say that this aircraft the rafale has not sold to anyone----it is not the first time that has happened that a great product has not sold----it is the lack of salesmanship that hindered its sale---french are poor sales people----they can't sell a bottle of water to a beduoin stranded on a hot day in the middle of sahara desert----.

Well---it says a lot about the rafale to be in the top two aircraft in the mrca deal----by beating everything else. So---here is a chance for the paf to re---deem itself---one more time----. It will be one of the two that the iaf choses----the eurofighter or the rafale----they could wish that they could get both of them-----.

Money was not an issue when this aircraft was being assessed in the early 2000's----it was just that paf was mentally not prepared to spend that kind of money on an aircraft----they could not comprehend the need for it----they could not create a scenario where this war on terror would be leading them into----they could not comprehend that there would be no peace deal signed with india by 2011----. 50---75 rafale aircraft in paf standards would have been a great reason for iaf to look at pakistan differently---with some kind of parity---india would have considered to be leaning towards peace overtures a tad bit more than not----a 5 billion dollar + package would have eased some of our current day fears---.

We have so fart lost 65 billion dollars on wot----what is 5 billion more-----but I guarantee it if we had those aircraft in service----our political situation with our opponent would not have deteriorated so much----. So we would have come out ahead-----it is all about understanding the projection of profit and loss under duress and unfavourable conditions.

quality of this post is as high as post of Joe shearer. very good post.

 

[araz]

This comment doesnot suit the writer.

I am sorry that you were hurt by my comment.It was not meant to hurt but to point out that asymmetry has a problem of its own, and apples and oranges should not be compared. As to the rest of the argument, I stand by what I have said.
You and I have longhad this argument and while we have chosen to disagree, we have a mutual respect of each other which I hold more dear than the argument and jousting that we do on the forum.If ihave hurt you i apologize once Again.
Kindest regards
Araz

 

[araz]

Hi,

Araz'z post really disappointed me----. Over the years what I have talked about the procurement of major weapons system is to look at what you want to get---in comparison to what the opponent has---. Because at the end of the day---you ain't going to be playing your tricks on yourself----you will have to either go out and hunt down the opponent or defend your space from the enemy's incursion----so at the end of the day---you will be measuring your's against their's.

Agreed that our procurements are to counter the enemy but with the proviso, that you have to look at your pocket as well. For instance the PAF has pretty much not had a fighter to counter the SU30 till now!!

So, while you are making your purchase, you also have to be concerned that the opponent also wants to get the best for the buck---. Out of the multiple option which two are at the top of your list---if you go for the top best---the opponent will go for the second best---but if the opponent cannot get the top best under any circumstance---then is the top best really the best deal----when the second best is so close to the # 1 choice----. obviously not.

Anwswered in the earlier paragraph.


What I mean is that competeing between the F 16 and mirage 2000---on the paper the F 16 was a great deal----but strategically---the mirage 2000 would have been a true coupe de grace on the opponent---because the opponent never had a chance of getting the F 16 27 years ago---and giving the opponent a shot a the second best just killed the advantage that paf had.

I see your point but as I have mentioned many a times, PAF s planning has been aimed at getting what suits them the most. Buying the M2K in the eighties was considered inappropriate in view of glaring deficiencies in the M2K, and PAF asked for some modifications. As far as I REMEMBER IT WOULD NOT HAVE CHANGED THINGS IN THE BVR scenario as there were limitations with regards to the radar. We have discussed the fiasco of the 90s and whereas you can shout till the cows come home, 2 very senior Ex PAF people have already told you that with the added commissions, it would have been a mighty expensive plane.
The second thought which i have had is what would have stopped the Indians from Buying the plane as well. If they put pressure on the french, would the french in greed of a bigger order then have deprived us of upgrades or charged us inflated prices for repairs. Just to give you an idea, the proposed upgrades for the Indian Mirages, is a staggerring 48million $ per plane taking into account the offsets due to inhouse work at HAL, where as the f16 upgrades are costing us much less (20 million)(Iwill qoute you the figure as i cant remember it off the top of my head).The repairs of the mirages has not been a cheap affair either.

Second reason why the mirage----everybody wanted the F 16's---it was a status symbol---a show piece---something to walk with a swagger---but for a practical airforce like the paf----it was the mirage 2000 which was the natural choice---switching over from the mirage 3's and 5's-----.

Wrong!!! It was simply the best aircraft in the world in its class!!!

The F 16 was like a beautiful girl with a thousand and one suiters---she was arrogant---she was ignorant---she was too much immeresd in her beauty---mirage 2000 was like the ugly sister----the nobody wanted but the one which could do it all as good or better than the pretty one----you can fu-ck the face for so long---after a while there are other things that come out---she has other suiters---she is not loyal---she wants to play around---she wants to take your money and do the american thing---run away.

Some might find it poetic, but it is of no substance , so i wont answer it.

That is exactly what happened with paf----the pretty girl that they got betrothed to----took them right to the cleaners----shoved it right up so hard that the screams of the paf have been heard world wide---.The french were looking upto the pakistani for taking on the mirage 2000 and they were let down---.

Accepted but how do you know what would have happened if you had gone for the ugly sister with a huge dowry. It had baggage of its own. Interestingly, no one has found this sister as accomodating as you have described it!! Even its gift as a freebie has been refused on grounds of it being too frivulous and a maintenance nightmare.

It is extremely ignorant to say that this aircraft the rafale has not sold to anyone----it is not the first time that has happened that a great product has not sold----it is the lack of salesmanship that hindered its sale---french are poor sales people----they can't sell a bottle of water to a beduoin stranded on a hot day in the middle of sahara desert----.

That is so poetic and wrong i dont know where to start. I am sorry to say this , but why dont you come off your high horse and say that the plane offers nothing that other contenders dont. Even the Sheikhs of Saudi and UAE have decided not to follow your line of thought and buy the rafale. And in case of UAE it would have n=been a follow on order. If the french cant sell, why was the earlier Mirage a success, where as the later Mirage and rafale were not!! Come on mastan ___ You need to do better than that!!!

Well---it says a lot about the rafale to be in the top two aircraft in the mrca deal----by beating everything else. So---here is a chance for the paf to re---deem itself---one more time----. It will be one of the two that the iaf choses----the eurofighter or the rafale----they could wish that they could get both of them-----.

IAF choice is its own andi am not privy to it, so I will not entertain it. As to PAfs choice, I will again say that PAF evaluated the rafale and the EF and found them both too expensive to maintain and buy!!! You cant buy what you dont have money for. That is why we are begging for more F16s Bl15s to MLU and not going for Bl52s inspite of having congress approval for it. That is why we are going down the route of FC20 as we can get soft loans from both the parties. There are other implications which i am not going to discuss on the open forum, but if you want wecan continue on emails. However, these would remain between you and me alone!!!

Money was not an issue when this aircraft was being assessed in the early 2000's----it was just that paf was mentally not prepared to spend that kind of money on an aircraft----they could not comprehend the need for it----they could not create a scenario where this war on terror would be leading them into----they could not comprehend that there would be no peace deal signed with india by 2011----. 50---75 rafale aircraft in paf standards would have been a great reason for iaf to look at pakistan differently---with some kind of parity---india would have considered to be leaning towards peace overtures a tad bit more than not----a 5 billion dollar + package would have eased some of our current day fears---.We have so fart lost 65 billion dollars on wot----what is 5 billion more-----but I guarantee it if we had those aircraft in service----our political situation with our opponent would not have deteriorated so much----. So we would have come out ahead-----it is all about understanding the projection of profit and loss under duress and unfavourable conditions.

OK for instance we bought the rafale. Do you think IAF would do badly by buying the EF typhoon/ Do you for a moment think that the game would change to any extent if we bought 50 to 75 ACs , when you r opponent is going to buy pto 200 Acs and come at you with 500 4.5 gen planes? Face it mastan Khan , your arguments are lame and I have answered each and every one of them and you dont have a leg to stand on. I look forward to your POETIC AND FLOWING response!!!

 

[araz]

This story has grown old that we can't afford, maintain and buy Rafale. Look around you fools thailand is operating gripens, vietnam is operating SU-27/SU-30 and we are fooling ourself and others telling tales that we are nothing but losers we've ready made excuses for Mirages for Tornadoes for Gripens for Rafale and God knows what will be our next excuses post 2020.

Excuses and excuses is all we have. Days of defensive strategy has changed, You have to look for and hunt down before you become a prey.
Being a small airforce PAF must be both offensive and already a defence air force in nature.

So the excuse of F-16 will give rafale a run for its money any day is nullified it will not and never will, Rafale is two steps ahead of F-16. UK has still has a large order for EF-2000 and never abandoned it that shows the promising future.

Please don't point finger are French and their Hardware, PAF is still flying their old horses in great condition that shows French Hardware out performs even after 35+ Years. Here the word is grapes are sour not becuase you rejected it but because one day someone else will have their hands full of them and your mouths will be wide open once again in grief and sorrow.[/Q

Luftwaffa
The story has not gone old!! There have been problems with the economy ( no doubt of our own creation) The Gripen was denied to us !!! THE SUs were valuated but for obvious reasons not entertained although we may yet see them in a naval role.The rafale has been evaluated and found to be too expensive to buy and maintain. So I am not making anything up.
Good luck trying to go offensive on a big enemy like India!! In an conventional scenario, You will get your arse burnt so badly , it will be smelt all the way upto Canada!!! And I am not joking on this!! You need numerical and equipment superiority of 3:1 at least to get parity. So try this in the indo Pak scenario. Offensive maneouvres mean more losses as we have seen in the Indo Pak wars. No one will have the supremacy of air and other fronts like USA has had in its wars. So i disagree.
My comment regarding the f16s holding their own against the rafale have to be read in the context of the defensive strategy that we have and will continue to have. I stand by it and you need to prove why you think I am wrong before we continue this debate.
The reason the PAF isflying 35 yrs old French planes is reflective of:
A) our financial condition
B) The options avalable to us. This is pertinent especially in light of the fianancial restraints and the political influence and buying power of our adversary. To give you an example of the prevailing situation, your so called friend france embargoed your 35 yr old fighters sent to it for upgrades in 2002 when you needed them badly. Sanction free is not a word i would apply to that!! The world is changing rapidly and our options are becoming more and more limited. Being more "compliant " has not gotten us any where. The fact is money speaks and we dont have any of it.
As to the friendliness of the french we were being sold articles which we could produce for 40 Rs for 4000 Rs, and because of the issues with insurance we were forced to buy them as well.
Araz

 

[baker]

i hope the OP started with thread with assumption that india will select Rafale for MMRCA.......

but what i feel is like .. if india choose MMRCA and started induction in 2012 , we cant use against Pak F16 for atleast 3-5 years... because the training as well the evaluating differnet doctrines for Rafale itslef will have some time frame...
for eg: MKI inducted in 1998 but it is not all showed up in kargil war....

 

[pakpower]

i hope the OP started with thread with assumption that india will select Rafale for MMRCA.......

but what i feel is like .. if india choose MMRCA and started induction in 2012 , we cant use against Pak F16 for atleast 3-5 years... because the training as well the evaluating differnet doctrines for Rafale itslef will have some time frame...
for eg: MKI inducted in 1998 but it is not all showed up in kargil war....

From your message I come to this conclusion that you want an early war between the two not a good idea we should be friends instead of enemies in my humble opinion.

 

[baker]

From your message I come to this conclusion that you want an early war between the two not a good idea we should be friends instead of enemies in my humble opinion.

Absolutely No Bro..... my whole point was pakistan airforce is masterd in F16 but IAF will be take some time before Rafale can be used in any operation...

and in papers defenetly Rafale stands tall against F-16..

 

[pakpower]

Absolutely No Bro..... my whole point was pakistan airforce is masterd in F16 but IAF will be take some time before Rafale can be used in any operation...

and in papers defenetly Rafale stands tall against F-16..

Yaar rehnae doo issaee taall saanoon kiii

 

[gaurish]

I am pretty sure PAF have some healthy money! we dont know exactly but i have some info regarding money! in hands of PAF... and they are waiting for MMRCA final decision... after that PAF will play his game! let see RAFALE or EF!! but i am pretty sure PAF not interested to go for further American Fighter!

Waiting for MMRCA decision as if India wont buy anything after MMRCA...

 

[Skull and Bones]

Waiting for MMRCA decision as if India wont buy anything after MMRCA...

Wait!!!

Are you guys forgetting the Naval MRCA competition?

 

[SQ8]

With regards to the PAF's own views of the Rafale..
They have high praise for the jet.. during evaluations it was found to meet or exceed all of the PAF's requirements.
However.. compared to the EF.. pound for pound.. the PAF evaluation committee found the Rafale overpriced.. and over-bloated compared to the EF.

The Rafale was without strings, but the french intended to fleece us with the price they asked for it back in the 90's and early 2000's.
Which is why the PAF left the option behind..
It was a matter of consternation for us that we had no comparable jet free of the snags of sanctions as an alternative.. and the gripen offered very little over the JF..
Then came the early 2000's.. and the first taste the PAF had of the J-10 with its complete avionics package sans KJL radar...
Right there and then.. the PAF realized that it had found the answer to its problems..

The F-16 at its inception has been a light jet, whilst the current blocks are far from it.. there is only so much one can do with a basic airframe.
Weapon for weapon.. the F-16 can.. and DOES match the Rafale.
The Newer integrated EW suites are 80% of a spectra when it comes to jamming.. and electronic emission detection.. too bad the DRFM isnt included.
The APG-68.. is still one of the best "old" radars out there..
But the Rafale is a larger jet, with a larger payload.. it carries its very threatening EW suite along with planned upgrades.

Its also more maneuverable than the F-16..

Looking at all that, on paper..
The Rafale has the upper hand.

One on One.. it will come down to how well the pilot flying each machine knows his job.

In a many vs many fight..
The Rafale wont be invincible.. but it will be victorious.

 

[Hulk]

With regards to the PAF's own views of the Rafale..
They have high praise for the jet.. during evaluations it was found to meet or exceed all of the PAF's requirements.
However.. compared to the EF.. pound for pound.. the PAF evaluation committee found the Rafale overpriced.. and over-bloated compared to the EF.

The Rafale was without strings, but the french intended to fleece us with the price they asked for it back in the 90's and early 2000's.
Which is why the PAF left the option behind..
It was a matter of consternation for us that we had no comparable jet free of the snags of sanctions as an alternative.. and the gripen offered very little over the JF..
Then came the early 2000's.. and the first taste the PAF had of the J-10 with its complete avionics package sans KJL radar...
Right there and then.. the PAF realized that it had found the answer to its problems..

The F-16 at its inception has been a light jet, whilst the current blocks are far from it.. there is only so much one can do with a basic airframe.
Weapon for weapon.. the F-16 can.. and DOES match the Rafale.
The Newer integrated EW suites are 80% of a spectra when it comes to jamming.. and electronic emission detection.. too bad the DRFM isnt included.
The APG-68.. is still one of the best "old" radars out there..
But the Rafale is a larger jet, with a larger payload.. it carries its very threatening EW suite along with planned upgrades.

Its also more maneuverable than the F-16..

Looking at all that, on paper..
The Rafale has the upper hand.

One on One.. it will come down to how well the pilot flying each machine knows his job.

In a many vs many fight..
The Rafale wont be invincible.. but it will be victorious.

If I am not wrong, you are talking about Rafael of 2000, today 11 years have past and it would have developed even more.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

It is called DUE DILIGENCE ---- which means that have you done the best to your capabilities and abilities and resources ----have you done all you can ---and the bottom line on this judgement day is no ---- . Where does the money issue come into force--- the problem was that paf was mentally not ready to part with 85 mil per aircraft for the rafale---- because they had their beauty available at 50 mil ---or not ready to pay 40 mil per aircraft for the qatari mirages---.

In every major weapons purchase time is of essence --- once you fall back and with limited resources, there is hardly any time to catchup---and that is what has happened over here --- paf was over zealous about its jf 17 project---it was over zealous in procuring the J 10b --- and not understanding the peculiarities of integration, cancelled deals, no weapons system ready for their air craft, engine issues -----is there an ending to this list.

The projection of jf 17 was----the plane is going to get ready and it will be ready for service --- and I was screaming my head off ---integration integration integration---- 5 to 10 years time for integration ---- and even one of our very senior retd. air force officers disagreed with me ----says maybe 1 year--- I got lambasted on this issue from every senior member from mods to admins TT etc on this site --- and I am saying to myself --- all these reading that I have done, even if it is fiction---everyone talks about 'integration' how difficult and time consuming integration is --- the failures ----the set backs --- contractors balking --- political pressures --- weapons problems --- engine issues --- a myriads of things that go wrong --- .

I did not have the right word for it before ----now it did come to me --- integration is like a gestation period. It takes 9 months for a woman to have a baby ---- it takes 5 to 10 years for an aircraft to be fully integrated into service--- from the date of first full time production date ---.

And it has not changed for the jf 17 either----after it gets its fully operational sd 10 and an appropriate radar, it will be in that time frame.

With india --- it has always been force projection---they have always looked at the 'parity factor' between the defence and strike forces as well as pakistan's political and economic position.

All pakistan needed to do is to stay within the 80% capabilitiy of what they have---not in numbers but in mano a mano abitilty for the fighter aircraft to take out the opponent--- and that is where paf has faltered badly----. cont

 

[Storm Force]

Master Khan

I salute you on both the Intergration peice and the anal;ogy of 2 girls and F16 & MIRAGE2000.

Well written well thought out.

Your contribution is HONEST and REAL rather than jongoism and dreams which 99% of posters are guility of including our seniors.

THANK YOU MASTER KHAN

 

[SQ8]

Master Khan

I salute you on both the Intergration peice and the anal;ogy of 2 girls and F16 & MIRAGE2000.

Well written well thought out.

Your contribution is HONEST and REAL rather than jongoism and dreams which 99% of posters are guility of including our seniors.

THANK YOU MASTER KHAN

Said the man who cant take anything negative about India..
talk about jumping on the bandwagon..


Integration, procurement...
Perhaps the fountain of kickbacks that came with the rafale went unnoticed..
Or the redundancy of buying 12 mirage 2000's.. and then spending the equivalent of a force "integrating" their supply chain..

Perhaps one should look at the model of automobiles and their integration and introduction process.. instead of hopping with glee when a naysayer.. a respected one at that.. but still a naysayer comes up with an argument.
Wonder why the whole world cries fleet commonality.. why the spare parts of a car with a production run of 100000 cost much less than those of a production run of about 1000.
Why its usually more profitable to set up entire showrooms for the former type of car than the latter..

The PAF obsession with the F-16.. should have ended back in the 90's if not for the country's dire finances..
many cried aghast when the PAF again purchased Block 52's.. As if being bitten three times was not enough.
However.. what none saw was the short term solution the F-16 provided.
It can be delivered quicker.. it took less time, less money to train its pilots..
and less time to "integrate" it into the PAF's force.
For all the media whines.. the interviews..
Nothing stops the PAF from sending these jets wherever they wish.
And whilst there are the bells and whistles for it if we try to pry it open.. to take a deeper peek inside or let the Chinese take one.
There are no bells and whistles, nor shut off switches that stop this aircraft from flying across the border and dropping a JDAM or two.

The less said the better about the JF..
It is where it needs to be in its lifecycle today.

The J-10B, is the tip of the sword till the 2025 timeframe...
Its decided, approved.. by people who have spent their entire lives in the AF, Who have flown and trained with the Americans, The Brits..
The only thing that comes between such well-though out endeavors.. and not short sighted .. cherry seeking expensive purchases.. is the usual sycophantic Machiavellian suckups that roam the halls of AHQ..
Such people are easy prey for defense contractors.. and the bureaucratic kickback waterfall.

There is a fine line between a cautious approach.. and habitual pessimism.
Had the PAF kept the latter, it would be in worse shape than it is today..
A logistical, educational and operational nightmare.