Rafale in Egypt: the United States blocks

[The SC]

That's what I'm saying. The whole theory about that one "cheaper part(s)" that the US supplies is an insult to one's intelligence. I think it's pretty clear what is going on. If we remember the Block-52s being blocked? It's right along those lines except this time it's going through a 3rd party.



There's no LB in Egypt my bro. But that's ok because the Alligators and the Katrans will eventually have something similar and will be in greater numbers.



No thanks. There's nothing coming from anywhere else to be integrated in one of the best platforms currently flying and have to deal with all that aggravation. It has to be all part of the same manufacturer to get the most and best out of it.

Egypt is also putting pressure on France:
"The sources told the newspaper that there is an Egyptian insistence to obtain the Cruise missiles before the completion of the additional deal, which Dassault does not want to lose"..

-----------------------------------------------​

And there is this 2016 article to take into consideration:
...
The French Air Force fired 12 Scalp cruise missiles during two recent airstrikes, a spokesman for the service said.

The first use of the long-range weapon was Dec. 15, a first since France launched the Chammal mission in September 2014 and the first since the Libyan air campaign in 2011. A second firing of Scalp came on Jan. 2.

France fired 15 Scalp missiles in the Libyan operation, with French media then reporting high unit cost of the weapons and a request for a more selective and restrained use.

With a recent government decision to reduce the stock of Scalp missiles to 100 units to lower costs, the service may have had reason to fire the weapons rather than reduce the inventory, an industry executive said.

France ordered 500 Scalp missiles, 450 for the Air Force and 50 for the Navy, with the latter flying the Rafale from the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier.

US Defense Secretary Ash Carter visited the carrier Dec. 19, when French Navy Adm. René-Jean Crignola took command of the coalition Task Force 50 naval group. The carrier is part of the Chammal mission.

GIFAS Chairman Marwan Lahoud said 18 months was needed to build a Scalp weapon. Industry, whether it was European manufacturer MBDA or those in the US or Russia, could not produce bombs, missiles or helicopters at a moment's notice, he said.

"From an industrial aspect, what the services have in stock is what they have ordered," he said. "What they have in stock cannot be produced out of thin air. Production time cannot be shortened."

On the operational side, the Joint Chiefs of Staff were on the whole satisfied with the performance of the equipment, he said.

"I say 'on the whole' because there is always something which does not work," he said. "That's normal. That's war. The zero defect has never existed, never will exist, as long as there are operations."

https://www.defensenews.com/trainin...port-surges-with-rafale-flight-hours-exports/

It is possible that the reason for France's decision to reduce the stock of scalps is in favor of the new Perseus

 

[The SC]

In response to the report, the Egyptian army’s official spokesperson Tamer El-Refa’ai told Egypt Independent on Sunday that the issue of the missing American component of the Scalp cruise missile is considered as French “internal affairs.”

 

[Gomig-21]

In response to the report, the Egyptian army’s official spokesperson Tamer El-Refa’ai told Egypt Independent on Sunday that the issue of the missing American component of the Scalp cruise missile is considered as French “internal affairs.”

I'm sure the French will honor the agreement, there's no doubt about it. It just stinks that the US is still making these moves after all these decades and to be fair, the Egyptian brass hasn't done itself any favors by not signing the CISMOA treaty which would've alleviated many of the concerns the US might've had with certain types of weapons, particularly the AMRAAMs and even the AIM-9X. It might not have been the deal breaker, but it certainly would've made a positive impact on some issue like this, since these SCALPs are not exactly small munitions, but rather potent cruise missiles.

We'll also have to keep an eye on further purchases from the US itself, now that France and Russia have opened the door to Egypt for very advanced weapons systems.

 

[Ceylal]

What Egyptians PDF’s has tendency to forget ...Egypt is in the EYE’s of Western powers, a Muslim State, an Arab State, ruled by a brutal dictator...a state like other Arab states not to be trusted....SiSMOA Or Blue Lantern [ which Egypt signed by the way contrary to certain posting in PDF] doesn’t mean diddly, added to ISRAEL factor...

 

[Super Falcon]

RAAD is alternative from pak pith similar capability should egypt consider it from reliable partner

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Did Egypt bought BVR capability with Rafale or messed up like it did in F16 case?

These shinny toys are useless without the right armaments.

 

[The SC]

RAAD is alternative from pak pith similar capability should egypt consider it from reliable partner

How can you integrate it on Rafale? you need France's approval!

I'm sure the French will honor the agreement, there's no doubt about it. It just stinks that the US is still making these moves after all these decades and to be fair, the Egyptian brass hasn't done itself any favors by not signing the CISMOA treaty which would've alleviated many of the concerns the US might've had with certain types of weapons, particularly the AMRAAMs and even the AIM-9X. It might not have been the deal breaker, but it certainly would've made a positive impact on some issue like this, since these SCALPs are not exactly small munitions, but rather potent cruise missiles.

We'll also have to keep an eye on further purchases from the US itself, now that France and Russia have opened the door to Egypt for very advanced weapons systems.

Yes France will find a way to deliver them to Egypt..it does not want to lose the new 12 Rafale deal and maybe a legal issue with the first contract..
The Egyptian military brass must have its own reason not to sign the CISMOA.. one of them is that in case of war.. it keeps the option of modifying some components on the US major weapons in its possession.. because that is more important in war than pleasing an "ally"..

Did Egypt bought BVR capability with Rafale or messed up like it did in F16 case?

These shinny toys are useless without the right armaments.

Do not worry much.. those shiny new Rafales have BVR missiles delivered with them.. MICA is one example..and METEOR is in the pipeline..

 

[JKangoroo]

good decision Block the hell out of those mass weapons Deals ! letting the people starving to death but buying so much trash

 

[Gomig-21]

The Egyptian military brass must have its own reason not to sign the CISMOA.. one of them is that in case of war.. it keeps the option of modifying some components on the US major weapons in its possession.. because that is more important in war than pleasing an "ally"..

Interestingly enough, even India -- as of 2013 and maybe even as recent as 2015 -- along with Brazil and of course Egypt have refused to sign the CISMOA. Egypt's reasons might be obvious at first since much of the treaty involves the interoperability of communications between the US and whomever partners with them and that allows much more flexibility as far as access to certain sensitive weapons, but other than the coms and interoperabilities, it's very strange that they won't sign it. I've never been able to get a decent reason worth the sacrifice.

7. (S/NF) Both Anan and Reda will express concern over releasability issues and frustration with Egypt's inability to procure restricted weapons systems. Some systems are not releasable because of Egyptian refusal to sign the necessary agreement (CISMOA) providing end-use assurances and ensuring proper protection of certain U.S. origin technology. Releasability is of special concern to the EAF as they prepare to purchase 24 F-16 aircraft that will require a costly retrofit with less-advanced weapons systems. We should stress that decisions to release advanced weapons system are made on a country-by-country basis, but signing a CISMOA and expanding cooperation on current regional threats would be welcomed steps to our dialogue on releasability.

 

[The SC]

Interestingly enough, even India -- as of 2013 and maybe even as recent as 2015 -- along with Brazil and of course Egypt have refused to sign the CISMOA. Egypt's reasons might be obvious at first since much of the treaty involves the interoperability of communications between the US and whomever partners with them and that allows much more flexibility as far as access to certain sensitive weapons, but other than the coms and interoperabilities, it's very strange that they won't sign it. I've never been able to get a decent reason worth the sacrifice.

7. (S/NF) Both Anan and Reda will express concern over releasability issues and frustration with Egypt's inability to procure restricted weapons systems. Some systems are not releasable because of Egyptian refusal to sign the necessary agreement (CISMOA) providing end-use assurances and ensuring proper protection of certain U.S. origin technology. Releasability is of special concern to the EAF as they prepare to purchase 24 F-16 aircraft that will require a costly retrofit with less-advanced weapons systems. We should stress that decisions to release advanced weapons system are made on a country-by-country basis, but signing a CISMOA and expanding cooperation on current regional threats would be welcomed steps to our dialogue on releasability.

It is still a bit vague in its content..And a bit weird too.. what sensitive systems the US wants to protect.. which are not already sealed!!?.. this agreement IMO is solely made to justify the presence of US personnel in one's bases.. that is outright spying.. because if you look at the field of intelligence.. the Human agent is the most sought of.. not only for gathering tactical intelligence, but influencing the other side on both the tactical as well as the strategic level..
You know that when someone shows up in a place very regularly.. he becomes a routine presence..the others become so familiar with his presence, that they barely notice him ..if at all.. and that is where the danger resides.. on top of becoming friends with a lot of your personnel (where emotions get involved.. mostly from the third world side.. the others are more brainy ..so more dangerous in these situations..as they can manipulate emotions to provoke thoughts, and from there to actions).. I think you understand what I mean.. it is nothing less than penetration/infiltration..Things might seem cute today and tomorrow.. but might get bad after-tomorrow.. so better red than dead as our British friends would say..

 

[mike2000 is back]

Egypt is in the EYE’s of Western powers, a Muslim State, an Arab State, ruled by a brutal dictator

No offence, but what about your country Algeria ? Is it not ruled by not only a dictator but an old crippled one at that? Algerians situation isn't any better to be honest. If anything it's worse, judging by how corrupt and poor the country is despite being a large oil and gas producer.
The regime in place seems to be quite incompetent.

good decision Block the hell out of those mass weapons Deals ! letting the people starving to death but buying so much trash

LOL Wrong way of looking at things. I don't western powers should block such deals for such a reason. These developing countries need all the weapons they can afford to protect themselves and their interests in their neighborhood(especially in such an unstable region)

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

A question why is USA blocking the sale of missiles to Egypt? Egypt and USA has good terms.

Second option is Ra'ad missile from Pakistan. The Missile is well integrated with Mirage jets and weapons package for Mirage and Rafael are almost same. So Ra'ad can be easily integrated on Rafael.

Raad cant be exported due to MTCR Regulations...

SCALPs range is around 250km.

RAAD I = over 350+ km

RAAD II = 600+ km

No offence, but what about your country Algeria ? Is it not ruled by not only a dictator but an old crippled one at that? Algerians situation isn't any better to be honest. If anything it's worse, judging by how corrupt and poor the country is despite its being a large oil and gas producer.
The regime in place seems to be quite incompetent.


LOL Wrong way of looking at things. I don't western powers should block such deals for such a reason. These developing countries need all the weapons they can afford to protect themselves and their interests in their neighborhood(especially in such an unstable region)

You gotta give Algeria the benefit of doubt.

They survived French Genocide, French Exploitation... heck the french didnt even leave electric wires when they were finally kicked out...

Also Algeria is a very young country...

P.S; All Arab world is ruled by “Brutal” dictatorships... we have too thank UK for alot of issues facing former “colonies”... apart from the french (who are still exploiting african states)...

I think the problem is range then. 560 km. Lo Lo profile of missile makes Israeli air defence vulnerable. the 560 range make it good weapon to take out Israeli anti-air systems. the Next best option for Egypt is Ra'ad then.

SCALPs range (according to MBDA) is 250.. not 560.

That's what I'm saying. The whole theory about that one "cheaper part(s)" that the US supplies is an insult to one's intelligence. I think it's pretty clear what is going on. If we remember the Block-52s being blocked? It's right along those lines except this time it's going through a 3rd party.



There's no LB in Egypt my bro. But that's ok because the Alligators and the Katrans will eventually have something similar and will be in greater numbers.



No thanks. There's nothing coming from anywhere else to be integrated in one of the best platforms currently flying and have to deal with all that aggravation. It has to be all part of the same manufacturer to get the most and best out of it.

Really you are insulting Turkey and her innovations...

SOM is a very good missile...

 

[mike2000 is back]

You gotta give Algeria the benefit of doubt.

They survived French Genocide, French Exploitation... heck the french didnt even leave electric wires when they were finally kicked out...

You can't blame all your ills and current backwardness on foreign powers. Algeria has been independent since 1962. So you mean they are still lagging behind despite their natural resources because of a colonial power colonising them over 60 years ago? lol I guess their old corrupt incompetent crippled president Bouteflicka is also hanging on to power due to France's colonial rule?
These poor corrupt despotic countries need to assume their responsibility and stop looking for a scape goat. They have been an independent country since the 1960's(just like the vast majority of countries in the world), so no need to blame foreign powers for their current Predicament.

Also Algeria is a very young country...

So too is KSA, Qatar, S.A, S. Korea, Singapore, Ireland, Israel, UAE, Turkey etc etc(some even got their independence later than Algeria). Doesn't mean much.

P.S; All Arab world is ruled by “Brutal” dictatorships... we have too thank UK for alot of issues facing former “colonies”... apart from the french (who are still exploiting african states)

Yes I have heard that song so many times now, keep blaming others.
Namibia, war torn Iraq/Lybia, Fiji, Jamaica, sanctions hit Iran, etc etc all have a higher GDP per capital than Algeria. Go figure

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

You can't blame all your ills and current backwardness on foreign powers.

Most modern day conflicts have colonial roots .. how can you forget that?

Algeria has been independent since 1962. So you mean they are still lagging behind despite their natural resources because of a colonial power colonising them over 60 years ago? lol I guess their old corrupt incompetent crippled president Bouteflicka is also hanging on to power due to France's colonial rule?

99% of those dictators need US and EU to legitimise their rule.

Even in Pakistan... all military rulers were best buds with US..
Its easy to deal with a dictator than a democratic set up.

These poor corrupt despotic countries need to assume their responsibility and stop looking for a scape goat. They have been an independent country since the 1960's(just like the vast majority of countries in the world), so no need to blame foreign powers for their current Predicament.

Apart from dictatorships , those countries are embroiled by conflicts created by colonial rule.

So too is KSA, Qatar, S.A, S. Korea, Singapore, Ireland, Israel, UAE, Turkey etc etc(some even got their independence later than Algeria). Doesn't mean much.

KSA was never colonised and has quarter of world oil reserves (its surviving solely due to its oil wealth and off course the billions of dollars it gets through pilgrims)..

SA is not a “developed” country rather it has huge issues...

Qatar is a wealthy city state... much like kuwait...
Ireland has EU (and wasnt a colony).

Israel is supported by US , gets billions upon billions of dollars in AID not only from US, but EU...

Turkey again was never colonised (it was a super power of in the past century)

Korea again was never colonised and was helped massively by US and allies..

UAE wasnt colonised either.. it was under british mandate for a short period of time and with its small population and huge reserves its “winning”.

Yes I have heard that song so many times now, keep blaming others.
Namibia, war torn Iraq/Lybia, Fiji, Jamaica, sanctions hit Iran, etc etc all have a higher GDP per capital than Algeria. Go figure

Iraq was a rather wealthy state .. but again Saddam himself was supported by none other than US and EU (Ironically France supplied chemical weapons it used against Iran and Kurds)... most of his air fleet again was french.. he was americas best friend once upon a time..

Libya was again a wealthy state — despite qaddafi (soviet support).

Iran is still doing great despite sanctions..

—-

Its time you own up your nations fukups dude...
UK itself was built upon the stolen wealth of colonies.. east india company.. came as merchants and ended up beheading the Sons of King Bahadur Shah Zafar (who died imprisoned in Burma)... looted wealth,levied heavy taxes on farmers, even stole bloody marble tiles from shrines and mosques.. heck even bricks were ripped off and used on railway tracks...

Kashmir conflict again is an example ... simmering since 47... embroiling two countries into wars, arms races whatnot..

 

[airmarshal]

At the same time we've abided by every single aspect of the peace treaty to date yet our huge fleet of F-16s is neutered without the AIM-120 and other few capabilities and when we finally get into the BVR world 10 years after everyone else has already been in it with French and Russian BVR missiles and aircraft, there still has to be an issue brought up to deny weapons sales. Unbelievable.

Frankly, this is getting absurdly ridiculous by now. I have no idea what Egypt has to do before it's not stigmatized anymore. One thing it should do is put up a HUGE STINK about all this and not to France and Dassault, but specifically to the US. This crap needs to end.

And if a war breaks out between Israel and Egypt, Egypt will be put under sanctions while weapons will flow unabated to Israel. Not only USA provide weapons to Israel, but also Europe including France.

The way forward for Egypt and all Muslim countries is self reliance. Build your own weapons.

endered useless, like the Emiratis found out one day when they were on there way to bomb Lybia.

What was it that UAE found out about F-16s. Can you please elaborate?