Quwa - Analysis: Is it finally the Pakistan Navy's turn?

[Blue Marlin]

I've posted numerous times already, starting 2020, the PN will place orders, gaining the size of a small regional force, with guaranteed 50% increase in capacity from all angles, including Submarines, Frigates, Missile Boats, Destroyers, home built Helicopters (Chinese Z9 and 20), AWACS and a Dedicated Air Wind.

Additionally, the PAF will also grow about 20-30% in size with all new 4++ Gen systems which will be placed on orders from 2020 on-wards.

These are in addition to whatever is built or bought till 2020. One of my other analysis I posted a few days ago, included the option to put in an ADF post and a Naval base with a FOB / llight fighter - training AF base in Jiwani. Which is located just a few miles from Iran and within 40 miles of Chahabar. This would be THE strategic post which will put out Pakistan's reach to the strait of Homez easily.

Not to mention Pakistan can monitor ALL Indian cargo and military maritime traffic through this post. AND, adding another buffer and a military check point, before anyone can get to Gawader. With Pakistan's extended EEZ, the PN can now do "patrol" to safeguard Pakistan's exploration activities (love it) all the way, close to Dawarka naval station, and can even monitor and see ships bound to Bombay port, which is at this point, just a couple of hundred miles away from the ending of Pakistan's EEZ. So PN has a lot to cover for, the EEZ, the security of tremendous amounts of trade activity from Pakistan, China, Russia and other Central Russian States. So the time has come for the PN to turn into a small regional force. Soon, the Coast Guards of Pakistan will be getting many new ships too, for littoral security, and the PN will purely be focused on strategic defense.

Hi,

it sort of obvious that pakistan will place orders to replenish is naval fleet. from basic analysis Pakistan need 16-20 frigates with at least 6-8 anti air frigates/destroyers. also as stated in the analysis above Pakistan will need to replace the 6 sea kings and most probably they will be replaced with Chinese z-20's.

pakistan ar force has been the priority over there years with the induction of advanced f16 and Saab awec and the jf-15 etc, but the navy has been neglected all these years and more to the point of an embarrassment. but a navy is not a factor to winning wars but it does help if you do a have a strong navy. i think Pakistan will begin to heavily modernise it navy under a series of upgrades and procurement programs. a recent example is the 8 s-20p subs there procuring 2 to replace the agosta and 6 more for 2 more patrol cycles. also there is unconfirmed reports floating around the web that Pakistan is procuring type 22 catamaran ships. also the us should be releasing more Oliver perry frigates but congress is blocking the transfer of future transfers.the current fleet of former type 21 frigates now known as the tariq class are very old with 6 in service. now there is only 3. 1 has been decommissioned and two more are being striped.
so i would expect a order for frigates in the next fiscal year.

this sudden naval expansion is thanks to the CPEC. gwadar will be a transit hub for goods, oil, lpg, etc, from the Arabian sea to central Asia and china. so its no wonder Pakistan is procuring and preparing to safe guard this investment, that will somewhat change Pakistan, or be a huge game changer.

pakistan is near the straight of Hormuz and can quickly close the straight if it wants this is thanks to the jiwani base and bases in nearby pasni and ormara

.also pakistans geographic's give it the ability to give it the potential to police the Arabian sea, more in particular the horn of Africa. which is between Yemen and Djibouti.

also there is another passage to move cargo from Europe and the americas to Asia, this is via the cape of good hope which is southern south Africa.
but this route is longer and mostly used for ships to large to fit through the Suez canal

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

I've posted numerous times already, starting 2020, the PN will place orders, gaining the size of a small regional force, with guaranteed 50% increase in capacity from all angles, including Submarines, Frigates, Missile Boats, Destroyers, home built Helicopters (Chinese Z9 and 20), AWACS and a Dedicated Air Wind.

Additionally, the PAF will also grow about 20-30% in size with all new 4++ Gen systems which will be placed on orders from 2020 on-wards.

These are in addition to whatever is built or bought till 2020. One of my other analysis I posted a few days ago, included the option to put in an ADF post and a Naval base with a FOB / llight fighter - training AF base in Jiwani. Which is located just a few miles from Iran and within 40 miles of Chahabar. This would be THE strategic post which will put out Pakistan's reach to the strait of Homez easily.

Not to mention Pakistan can monitor ALL Indian cargo and military maritime traffic through this post. AND, adding another buffer and a military check point, before anyone can get to Gawader. With Pakistan's extended EEZ, the PN can now do "patrol" to safeguard Pakistan's exploration activities (love it) all the way, close to Dawarka naval station, and can even monitor and see ships bound to Bombay port, which is at this point, just a couple of hundred miles away from the ending of Pakistan's EEZ. So PN has a lot to cover for, the EEZ, the security of tremendous amounts of trade activity from Pakistan, China, Russia and other Central Russian States. So the time has come for the PN to turn into a small regional force. Soon, the Coast Guards of Pakistan will be getting many new ships too, for littoral security, and the PN will purely be focused on strategic defense.

What is this? EEZ doesnt mean its Pakistani territory. Doesnt mean Indian Naval Ship cant enter Pakistani EEZ. Its just you guys have exclusive rights of resource, which in effect is still International territory. Unless untill u build a gas rug or anything, its just free waters.

 

[Sipahi]

Real Good Read.... Excellent research

 

[alimobin memon]

F22p has 15km range sam for all targets.

Furthermore I have seen these new Offered export frigates from China in Defense Expo.Providing VLS support but I dont think with Displacement of 3000tons or 3500 tons is a good idea since Pakistan already has ships of same class. Pakistan should look for bigger frigates ( I know that Now 3000+ ton ships have VLS) but what Many readers and writers in pdf intend to forget is that Having VLS and 8 ASHM does not make a ship capable but also a good armour. which I think many people dont even consider when discussing ships. I believe what is more important is :

1. Larger in size to accommodate powerful radars.

2. Combat Hover able Drones like helicopters that are smaller in size but punch deadly machine gun and atleast grenade launchers (IMHO this can be setup in trio or quad for single frigate so that they can provide light air support to the ship if small boats attack the ship)

3. Mini Guns from right to left if flanking FAC come nearby

4. Most importantly the Heavy Armour which is the main reason I want to see ships with Greater Displacement In ww2 some ships were flanked but the armour was thick it helped alot to withstand and slowly destroy the flanking ships ( I think f22p is very lightly armoured)

5. PNS ALAMGIR Class type Ship operated by US was once hit by C802 or similar chinese missile it was damaged but did not inflict much damage that is due to the armour being good enough.

6. CIWS must not be in same position as in f22p Side by side since sea skimming missile are almost near sea level to avoid detection if any ship is coming from front the f22p ciws cant even hit it. Rather CIWS should be in front atleast one and one in rear atleast one ofcourse. FL 3000N type CIWS should be in center at greater height which is separate from other front and rear ciws.

 

[Super Falcon]

For me PN and PAF are mosr of time sleeping forces being a **** im not happy with their work force and planning

Most of their focus is on bussinesses i agree but they have to do their primary job

Think tank of both forces are childish as our friend mentioned oil reserves of military lie at khi they did not moved yet

PN induclted 8 subs of sane class i tottaly disagreed

Pn should bought 4 S 20 subs and 4 destroyers

Few days back saw a programme commander of F 22P frigate calling a ship destroyer such a pathetic commander of ship calling frigate a destroyer if these type of people are been given tasks for commanding weapons we better loose before going into war

Most of naval officers dont have info what they are using and this is not one time happened even a civilian like ne have better thinking system my faith on ALLAH and ARMY but both these forces with current planning only going to destructio. Countries like egypt poor but have some planning

 

[Aamir Hussain]

At some point in time any force needs to look at its operating costs -- what it costs them to man, fuel, and operate a surface combatant? Increase in inshore or littoral vessels while signifying focus on AShM and SSM threat ( I was an eye witness to the Tank Farm burning and actually saw the crew of three foreign Cargo freighters that were hit by IN AShM's after they were rescued), also clearly signifies attempt to release larger vessels to patrol major sea lanes in and around our EEZ and to cut down operating costs and use smaller capable vessels with lower operating costs than say using a frigate to do that job essentially an overkill with added high cost and risk.

PN's commitment to patrol areas around Somalia and Gulf of Aden ensure that atleast one major surface unit - if not more- is away on these duties -- coupled with enhanced EEZ and the need to patrol this area, release of larger surface vessels to these duties is increasingly being felt -- hence one more reason to enhance the littoral defense and patrol capability.

My 2c

 

[Quwa]

F22p has 15km range sam for all targets.

Furthermore I have seen these new Offered export frigates from China in Defense Expo.Providing VLS support but I dont think with Displacement of 3000tons or 3500 tons is a good idea since Pakistan already has ships of same class. Pakistan should look for bigger frigates ( I know that Now 3000+ ton ships have VLS) but what Many readers and writers in pdf intend to forget is that Having VLS and 8 ASHM does not make a ship capable but also a good armour. which I think many people dont even consider when discussing ships. I believe what is more important is :

1. Larger in size to accommodate powerful radars.

2. Combat Hover able Drones like helicopters that are smaller in size but punch deadly machine gun and atleast grenade launchers (IMHO this can be setup in trio or quad for single frigate so that they can provide light air support to the ship if small boats attack the ship)

3. Mini Guns from right to left if flanking FAC come nearby

4. Most importantly the Heavy Armour which is the main reason I want to see ships with Greater Displacement In ww2 some ships were flanked but the armour was thick it helped alot to withstand and slowly destroy the flanking ships ( I think f22p is very lightly armoured)

5. PNS ALAMGIR Class type Ship operated by US was once hit by C802 or similar chinese missile it was damaged but did not inflict much damage that is due to the armour being good enough.

6. CIWS must not be in same position as in f22p Side by side since sea skimming missile are almost near sea level to avoid detection if any ship is coming from front the f22p ciws cant even hit it. Rather CIWS should be in front atleast one and one in rear atleast one ofcourse. FL 3000N type CIWS should be in center at greater height which is separate from other front and rear ciws.

Well said. There is validity in simply procuring 4~6 heavier frigates (4500+ ton displacement range) capable of not only medium-range air defence (30km+), but long-range (100km+) as well. It would be a much more expensive proposition, but it is an increasingly common trend among navies these days.

In the end the need isn't so much to show that we have a visible naval presence in as much as ensuring that our submarines aren't entirely vulnerable to the IN's P-8s. The real value of a frigate these days isn't in anti-ship warfare in as much as air defence, and for that, PN is completely lacking. I don't see the rationale of buying so many submarines if they are left open to the enemy's aerial assets.

Ideally what we need to see is PN augmenting its submarine fleet with a serious frigate force (capable of wide area air defence), and with PAF providing additional backup with suitable maritime assets in the form of fighter and surveillance aircraft.

 

[WaLeEdK2]

PN needs some destroyers as well.

 

[alimobin memon]

Well said. There is validity in simply procuring 4~6 heavier frigates (4500+ ton displacement range) capable of not only medium-range air defence (30km+), but long-range (100km+) as well. It would be a much more expensive proposition, but it is an increasingly common trend among navies these days.

In the end the need isn't so much to show that we have a visible naval presence in as much as ensuring that our submarines aren't entirely vulnerable to the IN's P-8s. The real value of a frigate these days isn't in anti-ship warfare in as much as air defence, and for that, PN is completely lacking. I don't see the rationale of buying so many submarines if they are left open to the enemy's aerial assets.

Ideally what we need to see is PN augmenting its submarine fleet with a serious frigate force (capable of wide area air defence), and with PAF providing additional backup with suitable maritime assets in the form of fighter and surveillance aircraft.

Agreed. I think the PN is not thinking as it should Whatever anyone has to say that PN knows better than us but no sorry looks like they dont. As u said the P8 is big issue for lone submarines patrolling in sea without aerial cover. I believe that instead of buying so many FAC that right now is PN doing with around 6 planned azmat fac and type 022 I believe PN is going insane All the procurements are focused on anti ship role non have credible air defence.

However What I believe is that PNS Alamgir are equipped with home made or chinese assistance VLS system on the position of MK41 system. There is one pic which deem to look alike this https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/SA-N-6_SAM_launchers_with_radar.JPEG type of VLS. Can anyone Check if im wrong.

Even if it is not vls we should focus on Anti Air system and Ships that are heavier and have greater and thicker body armour.

 

[pkd]

2-Squadrons of J-11B/Su-35 to keep the Carriers and Migs at bay

 

[Aamir Hussain]

To me the pic is that of a Russian warship and not that of a Perry Class frigate.

 

[MastanKhan]

Is it finally the Pakistan Navy’s turn?

One only needs to look at one of the brutally hard lessons Pakistan had to learn in 1971 (and there were many, with the most obvious one being the succession of East Pakistan and the birth of Bangladesh). India’s naval operations off the seas of both East Pakistan and West Pakistan were an unqualified success. India’s combined naval operations resulted in Karachi no longer being able to send out or receive merchant ships, thereby disabling Pakistan’s capacity to trade goods or receive supplies by sea.

The rest of the article is on the site.
Is it finally the Pakistan Navy’s turn?

Hi,

The unqualified success on western front by the indian navy was thru the help of the pakistani air marshall---I believe A Rahim.

If the base commander had courage and ballz---he would have launched 2 aircraft right away to check before he called his boss---.

 

[313baberali]

I've posted numerous times already, starting 2020, the PN will place orders, gaining the size of a small regional force, with guaranteed 50% increase in capacity from all angles, including Submarines, Frigates, Missile Boats, Destroyers, home built Helicopters (Chinese Z9 and 20), AWACS and a Dedicated Air Wind.

Additionally, the PAF will also grow about 20-30% in size with all new 4++ Gen systems which will be placed on orders from 2020 on-wards.

These are in addition to whatever is built or bought till 2020. One of my other analysis I posted a few days ago, included the option to put in an ADF post and a Naval base with a FOB / llight fighter - training AF base in Jiwani. Which is located just a few miles from Iran and within 40 miles of Chahabar. This would be THE strategic post which will put out Pakistan's reach to the strait of Homez easily.

Not to mention Pakistan can monitor ALL Indian cargo and military maritime traffic through this post. AND, adding another buffer and a military check point, before anyone can get to Gawader. With Pakistan's extended EEZ, the PN can now do "patrol" to safeguard Pakistan's exploration activities (love it) all the way, close to Dawarka naval station, and can even monitor and see ships bound to Bombay port, which is at this point, just a couple of hundred miles away from the ending of Pakistan's EEZ. So PN has a lot to cover for, the EEZ, the security of tremendous amounts of trade activity from Pakistan, China, Russia and other Central Russian States. So the time has come for the PN to turn into a small regional force. Soon, the Coast Guards of Pakistan will be getting many new ships too, for littoral security, and the PN will purely be focused on strategic defense.

Yap good idea for forward base in jiwani ,i must say same on east side and some sort of forward base in new extended sea area (a flooting or old cargo ship type)

 

[wiseone2]

Is it finally the Pakistan Navy’s turn?
An overview of the Pakistan Navy's ongoing modernization programs and future operational needs

03 October 2015

By Bilal Khan

Compared to its sibling service arms, i.e. the Pakistan Army (PA) and Pakistan Air Force (PAF), the Pakistan Navy (PN) is, to put it politely, under-appraised. It is not that the Navy is not appreciated, but few seem to fully understand its importance in being the protector of Pakistan’s coasts and the guardian of the country’s sea lines of communication (SLOC). SLOCs are basically key maritime routes connecting ports for sea-trade and naval activity. In other words, the Navy’s worth is undervalued.

A quarter of Pakistan’s gross domestic product (GDP) is dependent on Karachi, the country’s leading commercial port and its largest city. Not only that, but with the planned rise of Gwadar, the country’s dependence on sea-trade (as well as that of China’s should the China Pakistan Economic Corridor or CPEC come to fruition) will only grow. In fact, any outcome that involves Pakistan becoming economically stronger and capable of trading on the global market will require a strong seafaring service arm.

However, in light of today’s problems and tomorrow’s challenges, can we with absolute certainty say the Pakistan Navy is in a position to overcome the currents facing it?

From a high-level view, it is abundantly apparent that the qualitative and quantitative gap between India and Pakistan is the widest (favouring India) in the realm of naval development. While it is true that India has a much larger coastline to defend, it is also a reality that its immediate naval problem (minus whatever ambitions Delhi may have in the Pacific) is Pakistan. In other words, in conflict, it is very likely that a significant portion of the Indian Navy will be available for fighting Pakistan.

While it is true that India is poised to operate multiple aircraft carriers as well as a strong fleet of destroyers, frigates and submarines in the future, it is worth noting that a 1:1 match-up with the Indian Navy (IN) is not necessary for the Pakistan Navy (in the defensive context). The overall capabilities of the PN as well as of the PAF need to reach a conventional threshold where Indian attempts at blockading Karachi (and Gwadar) become exceptionally risky and unfeasible.

This paper will assess whether that threshold is on-track to being reached, and if not, what can be done to actually get there. It is important this discussion be had given the importance of the seas in sustaining a major proportion of the Pakistani economy (the military machine’s engine) in times of war.

One only needs to look at one of the brutally hard lessons Pakistan had to learn in 1971 (and there were many, with the most obvious one being the succession of East Pakistan and the birth of Bangladesh). India’s naval operations off the seas of both East Pakistan and West Pakistan were an unqualified success. India’s combined naval operations resulted in Karachi no longer being able to send out or receive merchant ships, thereby disabling Pakistan’s capacity to trade goods or receive supplies by sea.

The rest of the article is on the site.
Is it finally the Pakistan Navy’s turn?

Could the Pakistani navy changed the tide of war in 1971 ?

Coming to the present even if the Indian navy acquires three aircraft and three nuclear submarines with ballistic missile capability it does not change the underlying strategic balance of power versus Pakistan. It help India a lot versus China.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Hey guy---why are you calling your website a 'Crow'----!!!!