Qatar: Talks with Pakistan over Mirage 2000-5s

[Super Falcon]

Neither does Sweden. Have you forgotten that Turkey and Russia share maritime borders?

Turkish AF was built in order to counter the Soviets. Just like Sweden.



Indonesia is richer than India. It has 1/3rd the economy with 1/5th the population.



All current Egyptian purchases were subsidized.



The F-35 is still a medium weight jet. So is the TFX.



So India is not a large nation? Who is arrogant now?



Mission duration is pretty much the same as flight duration. That's why the briefing is done in flight.

The pilots can handle 16 hour missions on Rafale, up to 14 hours on the MKI currently, more after upgrade.

Weapons are plenty enough.

Sorry to say you still don't get it

If turkey and Russia shares a borders what does that mean they have no history as Pakistan India enemy ship

Russia was selling year ago it's most advanced air defence system it get tricky when Turk destroy their jet but it does not mean they will become enemies like us and India grow up

If Indonesians economy is better than why half of Indonesians woman working as nanny and house maids in middle East

Please get rid of you milk bottle don't judge one example for everyone

Who told you and why Arabs buy 100 jets mistral aircraft carrier to Egypt why they waste money on Egypt when with similar money they can buy these toys for themselves

No one give free billion dollars of weapons to someone UAE itself struggling to buy rafale so want to sell it's mirages to Egypt to get some money and add more and buy rafale

KSA not stupid to buy Egypt free of cost weapons it is not potato chips you buy for your companion

Who ever saying MISTRAL carrier MIG 35 RAFALE FREMM FRIGATES ka 52 Halos

Either he is utterly stupid or you don't use common sense

Do you buy me a home for free it is like that

On 14 August 2012, the US Defense Department awarded a major contract to facilitate the procurement of F-16s by the EAF. The Pentagon selected American International Contractors for a $66.6 million contract to upgrade infrastructure for Egypt’s order of 20 F-16 Block 52 aircraft, estimated at $2.2 billion.[46] On 24 July 2013, the U.S. announced it would halt deliveries of the F-16s in response to the 2013 Egyptian coup d'état.[47] In March, 2015 the US announced the resumption of the deliveries of the F-16s, the last of which was delivered in October, 2015.[48][49]

On 16 February 2015, Egypt became the Rafale's first international customer when it officially ordered 24 Rafales,[50] as part of a larger deal (including a FREMM multipurpose frigate and a supply of missiles) worth US$5.9 billion (€5.2 billion).[51][52][53] In July 2015, the official ceremony, marking the acceptance by Egypt of its first 3 Rafales, was held at the Dassault Aviation flight test center in Istres.[54] In January 2016, Egypt received three more Rafale fighters, raising the number of Rafales in service to six. [55] All six aircraft are two-seat models and were diverted from delivery to the French Air Force; Egypt's total 24-plane order is for 8 single-seat models and 16 two-seaters.[56]


46 Ka-52 Alligators and an unknown number of Ka-52Ks are on order
In April 2014, it was reported that Egypt plans to order 24 MiG-35 fighters as part of an arms deal.[57][58] MiG head Sergei Korotkov said at the 2015 Aero India exposition they will provide the fighters if Egypt orders them and are ready to negotiate.[59] Russia agreed on a contract with Egypt for 50 MiG-35 fighters and is expected to be worth up to $2 billion.[60][61][62] Russia plans to supply the Egyptian MiG-35s with 40 high precision targeting pods. Deliveries would begin in 2016.[63]

Russia and Egypt signed a contract for delivery of 50 Ka-52 helicopters.[64] The Ka-52 will be equipped with the new OES-52 targeting system allowing it to launch Vikhr and Ataka anti-tank missiles using laser target direction systems. The execution of the contract will start in 2016 until 2018.[65][66]

SAGEM and AOI-Aircraft Factory have signed a collaboration agreement concerning the Patroller UAV. AOI-Aircraft Factory could handle final assembly of the drones and will develop a dedicated training center in Egypt to train staff for the operation and maintenance of the drone systems.[67]

On 18 April 2016, Egypt signed a contract with France for the sale of a military telecommunications satellite after discussions between the Egyptian and French presidents and between the Ministers of Defence, which took place during a visit by French President Francois Hollande to Cairo. The satellite will be supplied by Airbus Defence and Space and Thales Alenia Space. The price of the contract wasn't announced but is estimated at around 600 million euros

History of Egyptian orders it's not potato tomato that some one will pay 8 billion for free when their own forces need these items but they don't buy for their forces but Egypt just nonsense justification Pakistani mentality bring to justify we can't buy better bigger jet

Neither does Sweden. Have you forgotten that Turkey and Russia share maritime borders?

Turkish AF was built in order to counter the Soviets. Just like Sweden.



Indonesia is richer than India. It has 1/3rd the economy with 1/5th the population.



All current Egyptian purchases were subsidized.



The F-35 is still a medium weight jet. So is the TFX.



So India is not a large nation? Who is arrogant now?



Mission duration is pretty much the same as flight duration. That's why the briefing is done in flight.

The pilots can handle 16 hour missions on Rafale, up to 14 hours on the MKI currently, more after upgrade.

Weapons are plenty enough.

Giving example of Sweden who has backing of 52 NATO countries if everything fails they save them who you have and Sweden has gripe but their main assist is EF from NATO ad help

So don't mix up things and do little research who has what options

 

[Zarvan]

Everyone is good at drawing room talk. Talk sensible and " PRACTICAL ".

We are always going to look for a convenient and readly available option rather than waste billions on research and development for which neither do we have the funds nor the brainpower. We start something today after 50 years it will be ready. And the world altogether would have jumped in to a new era.

The Indian "Tejas" is an example. Wasted billions on redundant 4th generation aircraft . Praising it as if it can fly at light speed. Even "Arjun" for that matter.

Kindly refrain from passing such remarks. Until or unless you know the actual ground situation

Instead of going for these 20 year old Mirages. I think it would be better to get 24 to 36 J-10 B or J-10 C from China or JH-7 B. @MastanKhan

 

[Super Falcon]

Your turn next. Idont indulge into engaging you as dont believe in wasting my time talking to people with fixed ideas. You have asked me to grow up. I grew up a long time ago and am steadily growing horizontally so thank you for reminding me. However I will leave it upto the public to compare your gibberish with mine to see who needs to grow up.
You have higlighted the advances in AL117S technology. Tell me how many countries have utilized the engine? The fact remains the engine needs to be tried out for a few years before you find its faults just like the SU series AL 31FN and its flame outs.So all I am saying at the moment is you dont have the evidence to support your tall claims. We need to wait to find out. By the way I have not supported the assumption that PSAF wants to buy older M2Ks so the assumption is mute and without any basis.
The other fact which you blatantly ignore is the fact that Russai is not going to supply you the SU35s without cash in hand and you dont have it. Seconfdly even if they do it just means thatr you have a second nation that canthrottle you in case of war by sanctioning you. OH they would love to rub youer nose in the dirt to take revenge for their defeat in Afghanistan. Oh By the way the person responsible for the supply of RD93 spares in a restaurant owner in Moscow so good luck with getting supplies in times of need. PAF is at themoment trying its best to get the Russians to establish facilities and infrastructure to ensure smooth supplies of RD93 toPAF and establishment of infrastructure in house to start overhauling facilities which is what all the visits have been about rather than the mighty SU35 which you all flagellate about. PAF may also be trying to be able to manufacture some parts necessary for in house maintenance of RD series. They are also cajoling the riussains to move ahead on the RD93MK version which they want. The difficulties encountered are plain for all to see.
You and people of your intellect dont see that we are being denied equipment due to our inability to pay back the money that we already owe. So at themoment till Pak economy improves significantly you aint getting jack!!! So wallow in your delusions of grandeur but the stark reality is we are beggers who are not in the enviable position to be able to choose our equipment. If this is the memon thinking all power to them for being sensible.
mark my words again!! YOU WILL NEVER GET PARITY WITHIAF IN NUMBERS OR QUALITY!!! The fact you are swimming rather than sinking is because they are incredibly inept at managing their defence acquisitions. So lets be fair and take facts for what they are. YOU ARE BROKE!!!!!
The rest of your post does not deserve an answer.
A


But as I mentioned this is due to heavy arm twisting as well as the fact that they have to keep the weapons they have upto date which is why they bought more 15s and got the rest of their fleet upgraded. The US leanings towards Israel are palin for all to see and the writing is so blatantly clear that even the baklawa befuddled brain of the Arab leadership can see it( I know it is very unfaitr of me but please do allow some artistic licence).
A

How do u get cash for mirages and 8 new F 16 which rejected by us Congress

One more thing SU 35 engine is passed all the tests and China is not stupid buying SU 35 which has engine issues it is world best available engine with thrust vectoring if it had faults Chinese never ordered SU 35

China ordered SU 35 due to its engines that China want to copy above it

Your assumption is if no one ordering a jet it means jet has fault than I must tell u it is utterly stupid

If Nissan car is not sold in Pakistan it does not mean it is faulty car

Tell me how many countries ordered gripen and rafale 3 or 4 countries

Rafale only Egypt has bought Indian rafale deal not finalised fully

Does it mean it is bad jet

MIG 35 no customer but Egypt bought it does it mean it has no war history it is bad jet Russia haven't bought it but Egypt did



One more thing I challenge you here that ask anyNATO airforce pilot who he see a threat in sky u will get your answer not one but 30 + plus NATO pilots tell you SU 35

 

[araz]

How do u get cash for mirages and 8 new F 16

One more thing SU 35 engine is passed all the tests and China is not stupid buying SU 35 which has engine issues it is world best available engine with thrust vectoring if it had faults Chinese never ordered SU 35

China ordered SU 35 due to its engines that China want to copy above it

Your assumption is if no one ordering a jet it means jet has fault than I must tell u it is utterly stupid

If Nissan car is not sold in Pakistan it does not mean it is faulty car

Tell me how many countries ordered gripen and rafale 3 or 4 countries

Rafale only Egypt has bought Indian rafale deal not finalised fully

Does it mean it is bad jet

MIG 35 no customer but Egypt bought it does it mean it has no war history it is bad jet Russia haven't bought it but Egypt did



One more thing I challenge you here that ask anyNATO airforce pilot who he see a threat in sky u will get your answer not one but 30 + plus NATO pilots tell you SU 35

Mairay Bhai
DId it escape you that when the US Congress stopped the FMF for the purchase we pulled out. Does that not tell you anything.
. China is also using AL31FN both on its SU series and J10 planes. Have you not heard of flame outs on engines. So why in darnations did China use the AL31FN series. You are putting words in my mouth . READ MY POST AGAIN. I will reiterate again that given Russian tech and its reputation we need to give the SU35 more time before you can certify it is a good engine. At the moment you just dont know enough to be able to say otherwise. You have also very conveniently avoided the 2 most important issues of trust deficit and financial resources
MY assumption is not the problem, your grasp of written text is. READ my post again.
The french(Rafale) , the US(GE404/414 series) have a history behind it. That confidence is not generally shared by Russian engines. Low MTBO, frequent flame outs, supply problems are all quoted as headaches by air forces dealing with the Russians. The Malaysians are fed up due to frequent problems with their Mig 29s. The IAF is complaining with less than 50 % availability on their SUs. There have been problems with their turbine blades which has grounded the fleet . You name it the problems go on.
So your glorious argument is as empty as your brian when it comes to countries buying RAfale and Gripen.
Iam not denying the beauty and the lethality of the SU35, but the fact remains that:
A. The PAF will take its time gauging the russians and will not be ordering the SU till we have assured supply chains .
B. The mistrust between the 2 governments will be a significant hinderance to any deal for SU35.
C. You dont have the money for the planes.
D. You dont have any experience on AL117S to be able to dsay that it is a safe engine to have. lets wait and see.
A

 

[The Eagle]

India is in negotiation with Russia regarding up-gradation of current Sukhoi SU-30 MKI fleet. The upgrade package is estimated as it will bring the fleet to the 5th gen level, called as super sukhoi costing more than US$8 Billions.

A bit of detail w.r.t upgrade:

The latest upgrade package for India will likely be based around a new computing system (reportedly of Israeli design) as well as new or upgraded sensors, primarily the radar. The weapons array is to be enhanced with long-range RVV-BD (R-37M) and medium-range RVV-SD (R-77-1) air-to-air missiles (AAMs), as well as Kh-59MK air-to-surface missiles. India also wants to adapt the aircraft for the carriage of indigenous weapons, including Astra AAMs; an Astra was launched from a Su-30MKI for the first time on May 4, 2014, during trials in India. New self-protection systems are expected, as well as engine compressor blades, wing and empennage leading edges, and cockpit canopy coatings to reduce the radar cross-section. The AL-31FP engine control system will be upgraded. Under a separate project, the Indo-Russian Brahmos-A air-to-surface missile is to be implemented on the Su-30MKI.

http://www.combataircraft.net/2016/07/28/new-lease-of-life-for-indian-flanker/

In these context, SU-35 induction by PAF makes no sense nor seems feasible as the rival is upgrading its current fleet almost head par to 5th Gen whereby we will be buying a new platform with all the tools, support, facility, that too we are not familiar with and will cost us way more than the Indian SU MKI fleet which they already owned.

Rest about the talks with Qatar, there is no such official confirmation nor any comments are yet made by PAF/ concerned personnel, seems unlikely to happen until any confirmation.

 

[BadGuys]

If Indonesians economy is better than why half of Indonesians woman working as nanny and house maids in middle East

why not.. its honest way to make a living.
and say half of Indonesian women working in ME is little too much. currently, there is 250 - 500 thousand Indonesians migrant worker in ME and not all women's and we already impose a Permanent ban on sending domestic worker there.

 

[_NOBODY_]

In these context, SU-35 induction by PAF makes no sense nor seems feasible as the rival is upgrading its current fleet almost head par to 5th Gen whereby we will be buying a new platform with all the tools, support, facility, that too we are not familiar with and will cost us way more than the Indian SU MKI fleet which they already owned.

Then that leaves the expensive Typhoon as the only option.

 

[randomradio]

If Indonesians economy is better than why half of Indonesians woman working as nanny and house maids in middle East

Even 20 years down the line, Indians will be working as nannies and house maids in Saudi. Indonesia is rich, a middle income economy. It is at least thrice as rich as Pakistan.

Who told you and why Arabs buy 100 jets mistral aircraft carrier to Egypt why they waste money on Egypt when with similar money they can buy these toys for themselves

No one give free billion dollars of weapons to someone UAE itself struggling to buy rafale so want to sell it's mirages to Egypt to get some money and add more and buy rafale

KSA not stupid to buy Egypt free of cost weapons it is not potato chips you buy for your companion

KSA is stupid enough to buy Egypt jets. KSA and UAE provided half the funds for the Egyptian deal. The other half was financed from France.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2015-02-11/egypt-acquire-rafale-combat-jets

The French government export credit agency Coface will reportedly finance 50 percent of the deal, with Saudi Arabia and the UAE supplying the balance.

Egypt has been financed by the monarchies since 2011. Read up on it, kid. Heard of Arab Spring?

In fact, if Pak had contributed to the war in Yemen, the monarchs would have financed Pakistani purchases also.

If turkey and Russia shares a borders what does that mean they have no history as Pakistan India enemy ship

Giving example of Sweden who has backing of 52 NATO countries if everything fails they save them who you have and Sweden has gripe but their main assist is EF from NATO ad help

So don't mix up things and do little research who has what options

Even Turkey is part of NATO. Soviet and NATO are enemies, kid. You must be pretty stupid to believe these countries have built their air forces expecting help from NATO. They have built their air forces as any small nation would do against a larger nation. Just like Pakistan has.

And NATO has 28 members. This is a testament to your knowledge.

 

[Centurion2016]

Mirage 2000 is a new platform NOTHING LIKE the 40 year old second/third generation mirages in PAF today

To Buy JUST 12 planes and pay the millions to upgrade facilties to keep these 12 birds maintained is a non starter

UNLESS PAF PLANS TO BUY MORE MIRAGE2000 from other sources ,, but from where and at what cost ..

Its fighter very much in the F16/52 mode and capability whicvh means it offers nothing new that PAF does not have already.

IN CONTRAST a purchase of a new TWIN ENGINED platform like SU35 WOULD BE FAR MORE welcomed its some4thing PAF lacks

so


12 of these BUT WHY

12 MORE OF THESE

or JUST STICK TO THESE

 

[randomradio]

This is because of interests other than businesses. The defence industry is huge interest in the US equilibrium and nothing will be done against the interest of the group. I somehow feel that we are skirting around the subject rather than getting into the meat of it. So to reiterate, US will safeguard its defence industry by ensuring that it does not act contrary to the industries interests.An F16 going down to an MKI or a Rafale due to a so called kill switch is too damaging to the US armaments industry image and will not be actioned

Again, why will the US activate the kill switch when the aircraft is in the air?

Kill switches will prevent an aircraft from taking off. So why will it go down to a MKI or Rafale when it can't fly up to meet them in the first place?

This is a mute point. It is at a point in future which neither you nor I know of. I dont think it is going to happen just like BVRs did not happen due to concerns regarding Israel's security. So the Middle Eastern countries will be looking st else where for their 5th generation fighter needs.

They will all buy the F-35 when it becomes available sometime next decade. At least Saudi, UAE, Qatar and Kuwait will buy American jets and will continue to do so for a long time. Saudi is America's satellite state. They have a mutual defence agreement. The other smaller monarchies will follow suit.

It is the fifthe generation programme that both countries have announced .If you cdont think this is competition what is/

It's not competition. You compete only when you build something similar. Japan won't export and have already committed to the F-35. They will most likely triple their orders in time. And Korea is not building a 5th gen jet.

Turkish estimates for F35 have gone down and will go down once they have an indegenous programme running. I think you canonly state what you have once their progress is more apparent around 2020.

The Turks are building a complementary jet. Turkey will be a major hub for the F-35 and they have already ordered 6. So they have become committed.

There are restrictions in place and have severely curtailed the functioning of the US inventory in IAF. There is a news on the subject. I cant remember well but it pertains to communication equipment. So your statement is factually incorrect

There are no restrictions to US equipment. We can use it anywhere we want, wherever we want, however we want. I think what you are referring to is communication equipment that the US did not supply because we didn't sign the CISMOA. But that's irrelevant because we replaced them with our own equipment, which we intended to do in the first place, so no loss there.

The only weapons system that has restrictions is the USS Trenton, but that's because it was originally a USN ship. The only major restriction we have is that we cannot use American weapons to drop nuclear weapons, but that's irrelevant to what we have purchased.

The french have not concluded their deal with you so what is coming or not coming to you cannot be stated till it has arrived. We can talk about it when the Raflae deal is concluded and I wish you the best of luck in this regards.

There are no restrictions to using French weapons either. We even use it for nuclear missions.

PS: I tried to multiquote a response for you . It is likely to fail so have used different colours for my answers to your post.

Right click on "+Quote" and open in new tab. Then use [ quote ]part of my post[/ quote ] (remove spaces in brackets) and type what you want under it, then repeat with another part of my post. Simple. The multiquote thing is sh*t.

The IAF is complaining with less than 50 % availability on their SUs.

That is not a Russian problem, that's an Indian bureaucracy problem. The only valid point was the engine trouble, it would lose pressure quickly during some maneuvers, and they have fixed that problem.

 

[Super Falcon]

Even 20 years down the line, Indians will be working as nannies and house maids in Saudi. Indonesia is rich, a middle income economy. It is at least thrice as rich as Pakistan.



KSA is stupid enough to buy Egypt jets. KSA and UAE provided half the funds for the Egyptian deal. The other half was financed from France.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2015-02-11/egypt-acquire-rafale-combat-jets


Egypt has been financed by the monarchies since 2011. Read up on it, kid. Heard of Arab Spring?

In fact, if Pak had contributed to the war in Yemen, the monarchs would have financed Pakistani purchases also.



Even Turkey is part of NATO. Soviet and NATO are enemies, kid. You must be pretty stupid to believe these countries have built their air forces expecting help from NATO. They have built their air forces as any small nation would do against a larger nation. Just like Pakistan has.

And NATO has 28 members. This is a testament to your knowledge.

Who said NATO help them built airforces child
I said they don't need further more procurement due to they are members of NATO
if war happens NATO help them in war read than assume

 

[Signalian]

PAF should get an aircraft which can atleast carry 8-10 A2A missiles in air on a CAP or escort or air sup mission.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@araz

Russian engines are definitely troublesome

Therefore Both Mig 29 and SU 27 / SU 30 use Twin engines

China is buying SU 30 for IBRIS E radar

 

[IceCold]

How do u get cash for mirages and 8 new F 16 which rejected by us Congress

One more thing SU 35 engine is passed all the tests and China is not stupid buying SU 35 which has engine issues it is world best available engine with thrust vectoring if it had faults Chinese never ordered SU 35

China ordered SU 35 due to its engines that China want to copy above it

Your assumption is if no one ordering a jet it means jet has fault than I must tell u it is utterly stupid

If Nissan car is not sold in Pakistan it does not mean it is faulty car

Tell me how many countries ordered gripen and rafale 3 or 4 countries

Rafale only Egypt has bought Indian rafale deal not finalised fully

Does it mean it is bad jet

MIG 35 no customer but Egypt bought it does it mean it has no war history it is bad jet Russia haven't bought it but Egypt did



One more thing I challenge you here that ask anyNATO airforce pilot who he see a threat in sky u will get your answer not one but 30 + plus NATO pilots tell you SU 35

Araz sb is a very senior person. May i suggest to please make your point without using words such as stupid. Thanks

 

[volatile]

Its fighter very much in the F16/52 mode and capability whicvh means it offers nothing new that PAF does not have already.

but it replaces some fighters which are well below block 52 standard

Russian engines are definitely troublesome

Therefore Both Mig 29 and SU 27 / SU 30 use Twin engines

China is buying SU 30 for IBRIS E radar

There are always more than few ways of looking things and how you deal with it ,e.g if case of engine for Russian being bad ones are based on IAF experience so one can say IAF may be lacking qualified or skilled maintenance staff (Not wanted to derail) I guess SU are doing pretty much fine in many Airforces of the world China operates larger fleet but nothing has come out of it ,similarly force like PAF who is prone to Western equipment didnt see many things wrong with RD93 so it depends ,kindly dont label things based on perception ,Im sure Russkies are not dumb to base there Air force doctrine on faulty engines and even more dumber to export bad engine