Qatar: Talks with Pakistan over Mirage 2000-5s

[araz]

Dear Sir, in how many years we shall be able to replace our Mirage 3-5 and F7Ps if Mirage 2000-5/9 not considered.



Dear Sir, as a pro please justify the purchase of Mirage 2005/9.

All I have said is the deal NOW makes no sense to me unless PAF knows something I dont which is very likely. The M2K saga has been enacted more times than I would care to count. It has not happened then and is unlikely to happen now. The more likely scenario is purchase of more F16s for MLU and perhaps if the weather is favourable some new ones as well. Other than that we have closed the hatches and await the arrival of a fifth generation platform as well as work on improving the Thunder which still has lots of potential to grow.
The M3/5 ROSE upgraded ones were always destined to go on till 2020/22 andthey will do so. By that time we will have a suitable platform to replace them with. If the situation somehow becomes dire we may yet procure some jets from China either J10s or if the Russians allow it J11Series but I dont think the M2Ks make any sense now.
However, if the deal with the Qataris is for JFT Procurement and has been misconstrued as M2K talk or there is talk of JFT Swap for M2Ks then it might make sense but this again is a bridge too far.
A

 

[Super Falcon]

French won't sell u spares if needed

And sir it is Russia it has good production line for SU 35 rolling out

As far as Egypt they choose MIG 35 and Venezuela still has to finalise deal

China WILL get new SU 35 in 6 months time 4

So your miss quoting the things

Pakistan is now more important for Russia than US licker Egypt and Venezuela after Chavez gone

SU-35BM, the version currently being delivered to the Russian air force and sold to the Chinese, has no canards. It doesn't need them. It is already the most maneuverable Russian production fighter.

Than buy better bigger faster not old useless junk and in less number won't add any in capabilities

 

[DJ_Viper]

All I have said is the deal NOW makes no sense to me unless PAF knows something I dont which is very likely. The M2K saga has been enacted more times than I would care to count. It has not happened then and is unlikely to happen now.

Actually, it makes a lot of sense for the PAF to go this route of getting M-2k-5 and eventually 9's. These will be the most comparable (yet lower in class) machines compared to the Rafale. Essentially, 80-85% of the same tech, but restricted weight, etc, due to single engine platform. Future upgrades will likely be similar to the Rafale.

The more likely scenario is purchase of more F16s for MLU and perhaps if the weather is favourable some new ones as well. Other than that we have closed the hatches and await the arrival of a fifth generation platform as well as work on improving the Thunder which still has lots of potential to grow.

The F-16 and the Thunder scenario is not really a scenario in my opinion. It is a reality and its a matter of when, not if.

The M3/5 ROSE upgraded ones were always destined to go on till 2020/22 and they will do so.

Using Rose upgraded Mirages for what? 4 hard-points for weapons, and the ability to use one Exorcet? This capability is like 4 decades old. Sure you can fly it till 2030, but what's the benefit ratio? A JF-17 has more advance options than the Rose ones. Remember the role they are used for, that is to strike. M2K-5 and 9's will do a much better job at this. I'd compare M2k-9 with F-16 block 52 (if you use AESA in the configuration). Its not too far from the Rafale in terms of offering advance capability....

 

[New World]

if M2K came into Pakistan than forget to get any 4.5 gen fighter before 5 gen came...

 

[MastanKhan]

Kind sir, if the good qataris are your brothers they should gift it to PAF. They swim in the ocean of money!

Otherwise, your own JF is the best thing to invest that money.

Not inteferring in internal affairs of your good country. But seems like the best thing to move forward with JF.

IF the qataris are wlling to induct some sqs of JF then of course a swap can be made.

Your good country is a central asian and ME power...not the other way round.

All the best with your PAF development. A force critically needed for keeping the peace in your region.

Hi,

Paf's problem is a NOW PROBLEM---which means that they have been caught with their pants down around their ankles---.

The NOW PROBLEM is that they are running way short of frontline aircraft---and the JF 17's cannot fill in quick enough----.

If they get the M2K's---they can be integrated on a very very fastrak. Due to bad mistakes of the past and present----Paf has strangulated itself by hanging with the F16's.

 

[The SC]

French won't sell u spares if needed

And sir it is Russia it has good production line for SU 35 rolling out

As far as Egypt they choose MIG 35 and Venezuela still has to finalise deal

China WILL get new SU 35 in 6 months time 4

So your miss quoting the things

Pakistan is now more important for Russia than US licker Egypt and Venezuela after Chavez gone


Than buy better bigger faster not old useless junk and in less number won't add any in capabilities

Egypt was negotiating for the SU-35 since 2014 or before, the Egyptian state TV announced that a deal was struck for 29 SU-XX but they kept the numbers as a secret, SU-35 most probably, since they are going for top of the line jets..

 

[SQ8]

Hi,

If pakistan gets the Qatari mirages---then I would like-----

for all the THINK TANK MEMBERS AND MODERATORS who opposed me over the years to come and lick my feet

resign from their positions---pull their pants down and bend over-----.

I really hate doing this.. but... if anyone should stoop to your level and better men wont.. but since I am not; Ill take that hit since unlike you I am not here for my ten minutes of fame:

Apart from your rather baseless and generally strawman arguments on why the M2K deal in the 90's should have been taken at those ridiculous terms; terms that ACTUAL pilots and HEROES like ACdre Sajjad Haider who themselves were the product of political machinations within the PAF opposed, there is little to credit you of besides being an old man who has stuck around forums for too long.

So nobody is going to do jack. Because the PAF going for the Qatari mirages has ZERO to do with any of your rants on the forum besides a personal vendetta against the PAF and a self aggrandising nature that would cause Donald Trump raise an eyebrow.

If anything, you have set an example of wild dreams and arguments for the younger generation besides giving them the impression that they can engage in fish market shouting matches on whatever two minute bathroom ideas they get. Your presence has been more damaging to the mindset of young Pakistanis in the last few years than any constructive arguments you presented in your earlier years. We can attribute it to an early onset of dementia; or we can attribute to your frustrations at whatever way your life did not turn out the way you wished it would.

However, that gives little right to a generally little known car salesman from anytown North America to come around and insult people who disagree with him and behave like.. well. the best example is Trump. Claiming around that somehow you are some unbelievably intelligent person that we should have appointed the next messiah incarnate; passing around authoritative arguments due to your sadly misrepresented "seniority" by being around too long and posting too much BS when in reality you have issues grasping basic aspects of engineering.
@araz @notorious_eagle @fatman17 @waz @Emmie @Irfan Baloch @Manticore @WebMaster .

And too all others who would most likely be offended by this.. I apologise.

 

[The SC]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The technologies and advanced capabilities that the Mirage 2000-9s incorporate include Dassault's "Rafale technology," with similar modular avionics, an LCD glass cockpit with full night-vision goggles compatibility, and advanced sensors and systems, according to the Bader 21 purchase agreement signed in 1998.

At the core of the Mirage 2000-9's navigation and attack system is a Thales- and Dassault-developed modular data-processing unit similar to the one used in the Rafale. This serves as the mission computer, manages the navigation and attack system, controls the cockpit display system and generates symbology for the head-up and head-down displays. As a result, the Mirage 2000-9 is claimed to enjoy a world-beating, highly intuitive man-machine interface.

 

[MastanKhan]

I really hate doing this.. but... if anyone should stoop to your level and better men wont.. but since I am not; Ill take that hit since unlike you I am not here for my ten minutes of fame:

Apart from your rather baseless and generally strawman arguments on why the M2K deal in the 90's should have been taken at those ridiculous terms; terms that ACTUAL pilots and HEROES like ACdre Sajjad Haider who themselves were the product of political machinations within the PAF opposed, there is little to credit you of besides being an old man who has stuck around forums for too long.

So nobody is going to do jack. Because the PAF going for the Qatari mirages has ZERO to do with any of your rants on the forum besides a personal vendetta against the PAF and a self aggrandising nature that would cause Donald Trump raise an eyebrow.

If anything, you have set an example of wild dreams and arguments for the younger generation besides giving them the impression that they can engage in fish market shouting matches on whatever two minute bathroom ideas they get. Your presence has been more damaging to the mindset of young Pakistanis in the last few years than any constructive arguments you presented in your earlier years. We can attribute it to an early onset of dementia; or we can attribute to your frustrations at whatever way your life did not turn out the way you wished it would.

However, that gives little right to a generally little known car salesman from anytown North America to come around and insult people who disagree with him and behave like.. well. the best example is Trump. Claiming around that somehow you are some unbelievably intelligent person that we should have appointed the next messiah incarnate; passing around authoritative arguments due to your sadly misrepresented "seniority" by being around too long and posting too much BS when in reality you have issues grasping basic aspects of engineering.
@araz @notorious_eagle @fatman17 @waz @Emmie @Irfan Baloch @Manticore @WebMaster .

And too all others who would most likely be offended by this.. I apologise.

Hi,

Poor baby----so upset.

Sajjad Haider is a war hero and nothing more---he is no tatician and no strategist---and neither would you ever be.
Because you are clueless in understanding the significance of the issue.

Enjoy your job and good living in the U S---you have come a long ways from those fetid dark alleys of Lahore---and that goes as credit to your perseverance and hard work---but any more than that and you are as clueless as a lost soul in a dark alley.

I do not have any personal vendetta against the Paf---but only against those traitors who wear the uniform of Paf---.

If I could tell Gen Kiyani and Gen Pasha to swallow their .45---when they were in power---and I still do to the general command now---do you guys really think that you kids hold any substance---.

 

[DJ_Viper]

if M2K came into Pakistan than forget to get any 4.5 gen fighter before 5 gen came...

I think that's an inaccurate assumption. I think the PAF wants to baseline their fighter fleet at 4h Gen tech level. They have to as they face a huge barrage of Indian aircraft, all of which are BVR capable. So this is a good strategy. Once you set a 4th gen baseline, all you then need is higher power / range radars and more modern missiles as they come in. Very affordable solution.

 

[araz]

Hi,

If pakistan gets the Qatari mirages---then I would like-----

for all the THINK TANK MEMBERS AND MODERATORS who opposed me over the years to come and lick my feet

resign from their positions---pull their pants down and bend over-----.




Hi,

Paf's problem is a NOW PROBLEM---which means that they have been caught with their pants down around their ankles---.

The NOW PROBLEM is that they are running way short of frontline aircraft---and the JF 17's cannot fill in quick enough----.

If they get the M2K's---they can be integrated on a very very fastrak. Due to bad mistakes of the past and present----Paf has strangulated itself by hanging with the F16's.

Our differences with you are purely opinion based. We have respected your right to an opinion and made arguments against it in line with the information we had to hand at that time. As you know situations can change. I would however like to put before you the following:
A. This still remains a rumour.
B. The fact remains that the french will create difficulties with supply of spares for the plane.
C. The assembly line for the M2Ks closed 2 decades ago and as such the plane has very little upgrade potential even discounting point B.
D.Why would you open a new setup for a plane which the enemy has operated since 1984 and which most of the world has retired on basis of high running costs
E. The current Mirage setup will be no good to look after M2Ks.
I dont know what the basis of this rumour is and what its intentions are but it does not make sense to me at least!
The rest of your post is unworthy of response and therefore been disregarded. However it needs to be said that your attitude has never been one to be proud of and such posts would normally have deserved a negative rating/temporary ban which you are escaping due to your seniority. However this good will of your seniority will not count for much with continuous misuse. So please desist. This is a brotherly advice rather than anything else that you may think of. You can continue whatever line of thoughts that come to your mind but please dont disgrace your seniority by stooping into the gutters from where others may choose not to follow you or better still choose to leave you in there. It would be a pity if we had to do that so the ball remains in your court.
Regards
A

 

[Arsalan]

Why not get better than F 16 and mirages

Socho ge achai ka tu hoga bhi acha

Khud ko kar bland itna ka khud khod Banda se pocho ka Teri raza Kia ha

Get rid of typical Pakistani mentality which hesitate to explore new opportunities in new platform just for the sake. Of old is gold

Our mentality is we buy corolla car but we not explore better Nissan Altima at same price

J 10 can be bought better than old airframe of these Mirages

You booked a car and got someone to finance major part of the deal. You were given enough time to arrange for and pay the balance amount and you failed to do even that. Talks about "exploring" Nissan or Corolla in such situation is quite unrealistic if you ask me. We should be glad if our government clears purchase of those second hand Mehrans. They have some obvious other priorities and whether i or you like that or not is not something they are concerned with.

AND NO!!! I am not talking about the mirages, that would be quite stupid if you ask me. I am talking about th EDA F16 with MLU option!! That is what the PAF seem to be looking for as well. This particular news is to be taken with loads of salt not just a pinch!

Mirages did not happened in the past, that is much more unlikely to happen now and the reasons are not some lack of planning or vision on part of PAF rather completely opposite of that. If one detest the US for there reliability as a supplier, thinking of the French any high will be stupid and fooling oneself.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

resign from their positions---pull their pants down and bend over-----.

Sir,
Please be civilized..

@Oscar The issue for getting or not getting the M2K's in the 90's was not based on the capabilities but on personality clash.

Coming back to present requirement PAF can not replace 190 odd aircraft with 27 JF-17 per year with 7-10 aircraft being exported as well. If PAF produced 30 JF-17's per year then it would take almost 7 years to complete the replacement. In 7 years the initial batch JF-17 would be up for replacement as those would be almost 15 years old.

B. The fact remains that the french will create difficulties with supply of. spares for the plane.

French only want money...If one pays them what they want they would provide all that you need.
With over 600 aircraft built spares would be easy to find.

C. The assembly line for the M2Ks closed 2 decades ago and as such the plane has very little upgrade potential even discounting point B.

Assembly line closed true however parts are still manufactured and existing aircraft are also being upgraded. Recently there was news regarding the French aircraft are going for an upgrade.

How good or what kind of role could PAC mirage rebuilt facility play can also be very much in consideration if these aircraft are selected.

Potentially what PAF is looking for in this aircraft is time for 5th Generation aircraft to mature. PAF can not afford to add in 4.5 ++ fighter aircraft and that too in numbers for a very limited time unless PAF decides to skip 5 Generation and get involved with 6th generation.

D.Why would you open a new setup for a plane which the enemy has operated since 1984 and which most of the world has retired on basis of high running costs

Both countries fielding same aircraft directly would be an even fight. Do not think it would happen though...

E. The current Mirage setup will be no good to look after M2Ks.

May be the French are willing to provide adequate setup...

AND NO!!! I am not talking about the mirages, that would be quite stupid if you ask me. I am talking about th EDA F16 with MLU option!! That is what the PAF seem to be looking for as well. This particular news is to be taken with loads of salt not just a pinch!

Sir
F-16's are limited in numbers for the time being. F-16's in USA can not be provided till Congress approval even if they are EDA articles. By the time the European F-16's would be available who would be the President and what would the mood be in US is any ones guess.

Pakistan should not limit its options...

News regarding M2K is a bitter pill very true but that is what is readily available.

 

[nadeemkhan110]

Pakistan Air Force needs to replace 190 planes by 2020
Guys this is the problem 190 is a huge number PAF is not thinking about 10 - 20 jets they are looking to replace 190 jets and we don't have that much money i am sure they are looking towards Mirage 2000-5 because of its prize and they will also buy 2nd hand f-16 from Jordan because they need a big number of 4th gen jets

 

[ZedZeeshan]

Just Imagine if 90 odd Mirage 3 and 5 are replaced with 68 UAE Mirages and 12 Qartri Mirages. how much big boost will it give to the capabilities of PAF over the night..