Qatar: Talks with Pakistan over Mirage 2000-5s

[kaykay]

Both India and Pakistan were trying to get Qatari m2ks in early 2000s...but Qatar asked a high price( reportedly 60 million per aircraft) and thus both moved on.....

 

[araz]

Sir,
Please be civilized..

@Oscar The issue for getting or not getting the M2K's in the 90's was not based on the capabilities but on personality clash.

Coming back to present requirement PAF can not replace 190 odd aircraft with 27 JF-17 per year with 7-10 aircraft being exported as well. If PAF produced 30 JF-17's per year then it would take almost 7 years to complete the replacement. In 7 years the initial batch JF-17 would be up for replacement as those would be almost 15 years old.



French only want money...If one pays them what they want they would provide all that you need.
With over 600 aircraft built spares would be easy to find.


Assembly line closed true however parts are still manufactured and existing aircraft are also being upgraded. Recently there was news regarding the French aircraft are going for an upgrade.

How good or what kind of role could PAC mirage rebuilt facility play can also be very much in consideration if these aircraft are selected.

Potentially what PAF is looking for in this aircraft is time for 5th Generation aircraft to mature. PAF can not afford to add in 4.5 ++ fighter aircraft and that too in numbers for a very limited time unless PAF decides to skip 5 Generation and get involved with 6th generation.


Both countries fielding same aircraft directly would be an even fight. Do not think it would happen though...


May be the French are willing to provide adequate setup...


Sir
F-16's are limited in numbers for the time being. F-16's in USA can not be provided till Congress approval even if they are EDA articles. By the time the European F-16's would be available who would be the President and what would the mood be in US is any ones guess.

Pakistan should not limit its options...

News regarding M2K is a bitter pill very true but that is what is readily available.

I have had a personal conversation with the Air Commodore who was directly responsible for the M2K sale as defence secretary to Benazir. This matter had nothing to do with personality clash but with trying to stop a sleeze bag from sccoping off 10 million per plane.This was why when the price was not revised Benazir threw the file out of the window on to the street/whatever and told the gent to not return till he had made the changes. The gent was relieved of his post the same afternoon. Interestingly the same deal was presented to the french duly signed 90 days later after the Benazir Government dismissal but was refused on grounds that the time period for signing the deal had elapsed!! So was Sarkozy involved as well?//
The number of 190 also needs to be qualified. If you look at the numbers about 30-40 planes have already been retired if not more. I dont think we will ever be able to retire all 2190 and replace them . I suspect the number will hover around 140-150. However the capability boost would still be tremendous.
Your assumption of the french only wanting money will only hold true if you disregard the Indo Rafale deal and the possible failure if the French paly ball with PAF. Therefore they have a cogent reason for sticking to their guns. This remains the main hurdle along with the cost of maintianing the M2ks.
F16s are not barred to us just the fact that the current Congress does not want us to utilize the US funds for it. They have not said they will not allow us to have EDAs. To me it seems the most tangible and economical reason for going down the route.
A

 

[Arsalan]

Sir
F-16's are limited in numbers for the time being. F-16's in USA can not be provided till Congress approval even if they are EDA articles. By the time the European F-16's would be available who would be the President and what would the mood be in US is any ones guess.

Pakistan should not limit its options...

News regarding M2K is a bitter pill very true but that is what is readily available.

We are not looking to buy in hundreds either a couple of Squadrons will do just fine and those are not that difficult to procure. Also please when you mention the US presidents and there mood swings and congress hurdles, do not forget that on other side we are taking about dealing with French. YES THE FRENCH!! Do you think they will be any better? Specially with all those contracts with IAF up and running? I am sure that this one point alone will be enough to keep PAF away from any such adventure. All said, the F16 remain the most sensible and realistic route forward along with those JF17 of course!

 

[aliyusuf]

Why don't we raise a couple of squadrons of used M2K-5 or M2K-9s and MiG-29 and primarily use them as aggressor squadrons (DACT) in peace time and use them as well as we can in war time against the enemy who operates these planes. This way we can train year round on them and fly them extensively and find out their strengths and weaknesses to the fullest and use that knowledge to devise effective well drilled tactics to counter the enemy.

One advantage in the 1965 war the PAF pilots enjoyed was that some of them knew the hunter very well. Partly due to secondments of our pilots to the RAF and RAAF and partly due to exercises with friendly air forces.

Just a thought.

 

[Paksanity]

Why don't we raise a couple of squadrons of M2K-5 or M2K-9s and MiG-29 and primarily use them as aggressor squadrons (DACT) in peace time and use them as well as we can in war time against the enemy who operates these planes. This way we can train year round on them and fly them extensively and find out their strengths and weaknesses to the fullest and use that knowledge to devise effective well drilled tactics to counter the enemy.

One advantage in the 1965 war the PAF pilots enjoyed was that some of them knew the hunter very well. Partly due to secondments of our pilots to the RAF and RAAF and partly due to exercises with friendly air forces.

Just a thought.

Only if some billions $ were lying idle around somewhere! We are having hard time replacing legacy fighters (thankfully our neighbour is equally good at screwing up).

 

[aliyusuf]

Only if some billions $ were lying idle around somewhere! We are having hard time replacing legacy fighters (thankfully our neighbour is equally good at screwing up).

I know its a stretch, but just to think of the bang for the buck? A small squadron each of used M2K and MiG-29 (say around 18 to 24 fighters in all) shouldn't be much more than a billion USD.

 

[Paksanity]

I know its a stretch, but just to think of the bang for the buck? A small squadron each of used M2K and MiG-29 (say around 18 to 24 fighters in all) shouldn't be much more than a billion USD.

Idea is right but will require more than a billion $ which by the way is a lot of money. When you look at the funds available and most pressing problem of replacing legacy fighters and absence of decent SAM coverage, it goes waayyyy down in priority list. No nation other than US maintains such aircraft. They too just keep couple of copies to study adversary capabilities.

As an alternate, I believe PAF participates in exercises involving such aircraft. For example Mirage-2000 of UAE and Flankers of Chinese air force. That's the best one can get under the circumstances.

 

[MastanKhan]

Our differences with you are purely opinion based. We have respected your right to an opinion and made arguments against it in line with the information we had to hand at that time. As you know situations can change. I would however like to put before you the following:
A. This still remains a rumour.
B. The fact remains that the french will create difficulties with supply of spares for the plane.
C. The assembly line for the M2Ks closed 2 decades ago and as such the plane has very little upgrade potential even discounting point B.
D.Why would you open a new setup for a plane which the enemy has operated since 1984 and which most of the world has retired on basis of high running costs
E. The current Mirage setup will be no good to look after M2Ks.
I dont know what the basis of this rumour is and what its intentions are but it does not make sense to me at least!
The rest of your post is unworthy of response and therefore been disregarded. However it needs to be said that your attitude has never been one to be proud of and such posts would normally have deserved a negative rating/temporary ban which you are escaping due to your seniority. However this good will of your seniority will not count for much with continuous misuse. So please desist. This is a brotherly advice rather than anything else that you may think of. You can continue whatever line of thoughts that come to your mind but please dont disgrace your seniority by stooping into the gutters from where others may choose not to follow you or better still choose to leave you in there. It would be a pity if we had to do that so the ball remains in your court.
Regards
A

Sir,

An opinion for the sake of an opinion is a waste---of time energy resource and mind. Nations defences care less about opinion but care more about the presence of right equipment procured in a timely fashion.

I did not see any opinions here---because they were not substantiated by any technical or STRATEGIC backings---I only saw PAF apologists trying desperately to cover up the failing of the PAF.

At this stage I care less if the Paf gets the M2K's or not---if they do---then I will be laughing at the joke---if they don't---does not make any difference to me---.

 

[Zain Malik]

What are we going to do with 19 year old Junk??

Pakistan seeking 16 F-16's from Jordan
Pakistan in talks with Qatar for 12 Mirage 2000-5 which is 19 year old

we are replacing 30 year old plane with 19 year old one why cause it'll give PAF 10 years more until ultimate J-31 or TFX arrives

While our Opponent is seeking to buy F-35 Rafales PAK-FA F-18 F-16's

Let them do what they want....That is just a stunt played..

 

[SQ8]

Sir,
Please be civilized..

@Oscar The issue for getting or not getting the M2K's in the 90's was not based on the capabilities but on personality clash.

Coming back to present requirement PAF can not replace 190 odd aircraft with 27 JF-17 per year with 7-10 aircraft being exported as well. If PAF produced 30 JF-17's per year then it would take almost 7 years to complete the replacement. In 7 years the initial batch JF-17 would be up for replacement as those would be almost 15 years old.



French only want money...If one pays them what they want they would provide all that you need.
With over 600 aircraft built spares would be easy to find.


Assembly line closed true however parts are still manufactured and existing aircraft are also being upgraded. Recently there was news regarding the French aircraft are going for an upgrade.

How good or what kind of role could PAC mirage rebuilt facility play can also be very much in consideration if these aircraft are selected.

Potentially what PAF is looking for in this aircraft is time for 5th Generation aircraft to mature. PAF can not afford to add in 4.5 ++ fighter aircraft and that too in numbers for a very limited time unless PAF decides to skip 5 Generation and get involved with 6th generation.


Both countries fielding same aircraft directly would be an even fight. Do not think it would happen though...


May be the French are willing to provide adequate setup...


Sir
F-16's are limited in numbers for the time being. F-16's in USA can not be provided till Congress approval even if they are EDA articles. By the time the European F-16's would be available who would be the President and what would the mood be in US is any ones guess.

Pakistan should not limit its options...

News regarding M2K is a bitter pill very true but that is what is readily available.

I don't believe a personality clash would be the cause of the deal collapsing. The french in lieu with the PPP government were charging an exorbitant amount for the aircraft that exceeded the price they gave to Greece for a lesser configuration.

 

[Wolf]

Get these mirages mate subject to spares contract with French or any other source. We already have mirage rebuild factory, our pilots flew them in UAE , they will be better than most of our mirage 3&5s, it's maintenance will be of such nature that upgradation of mirage rebuild factory can solve such problems. We can get some brotherhood discount from UAE as well. So thumbs up for Mirage 2005-09 etc.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

In absence of a comprehensive national plan and strategy the ship of state drifts...directionless.

Is it not the need of the hour to think... take a step back. Take a view of the bigger picture. then develop a comprehensive national plan.

A patern that produces the same results... will produce the same results again and again.

What one fails to see is a comprhenesive plan of national development. Planes, regardless of their capabilities, are but manifestations of that.

A state that is a central asian and ME power would not accept its call of destiny...what would one call that?

Of course, it is to Pak people to decide. Yet friends wish well...

There is talent, youth and energy...why not gain strength?

Forgivenes is asked and msut be given..for offence not intended.

If those who are called brothers, must not act as one... what is in the name then?

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

This was why when the price was not revised Benazir threw the file out of the window on to the street/whatever and told the gent to not return till he had made the changes. The gent was relieved of his post the same afternoon.

If it is not personality clash then do not know what to call it. One saying get 10 million per plane to her the other saying no way...

The French issue could have been resolved if PAF would have shown interest after the PPP govt. overthrow. It was more a failure of foreign affairs.

I don't believe a personality clash would be the cause of the deal collapsing. The french in lieu with the PPP government were charging an exorbitant amount for the aircraft that exceeded the price they gave to Greece for a lesser configuration.

Sir, French always over charge...They are opportunist...They know the other is stuck and has no other option hence the price they want is appropriate how exorbitant it may be. If you compare French and Greece deal then you have to keep in mind they both are NATO members and European. Moreover Greece wanted the aircraft to fight Turkey and recapture Istanbul hence they would have been favored.[/QUOTE]

 

[SQ8]

Not at the amount they were charging us. Additionally, our usual 10% was there to make a buck off the deal.

There is a lot of kickback involved with the French in many deals but in this case certain honest PAF officers intervened to stop the deal at that price.

 

[Centurion2016]

Qatars Mirages 2000 fleet numbers 12 planes only.

The French no longer manufacture the plane

No other country is scrapping their Mirage2000 planes.... MORE likely upgrading them like india... EVEN France themselves.

I cant see why and how PAF would buy a new platform of just 12 planes ....

FOR THIS REASON I agree with those suggesting more likely purchase of F16 either used or even new.. DESPITE the fact that relations and mutual TRUST with USA is very very low.

One more point

THE MIRAGE2000/9 is not equal to 80% of a Rafale ........That is absolute rubbish. ...... SORRY TO BE RUDE

Dassult have suggested one Rafale can take on three mirage2000 and be as effective...

The RCS
Engine technology
Range
payload
EW suites
Aesa radars
weaponms like Meterore or Scalp

ARE ALL one generation ahead

Rafale is the best fighter in the world BAR the F22 RAPTOR ...

Even THE F35 lightening at best is only equal to a Rafale F3