Qatar: Talks with Pakistan over Mirage 2000-5s

[Signalian]

PAF acquisition in the next 50 Years:​

Very soon PAF will boast the largest fleet of Mirage 2000 in the world followed by F-16


In recent future:

12 X Mirage 2000 (Ex Qatar AF)
15 X F-16 (Ex RJAF)
12 X Mirage 2000 (Ex Brazilian AF)


After 5 Years:

7 X Mirage 2000 (Ex Peru AF)
10-20 X Mirage 2000 (Ex French AF)
15-20 X F-16 ( Ex VenezuelanAF)


After 10 Years:

10-20 X Mirage 2000 (Ex French AF)
All Dutch, Danish, Norwegian and Belgian F-16's.

After 15 years:

12 X Mirage 2000 (Ex Egyptian AF)
60 X Mirage 2000 (Ex UAE AF)
20 X F-16 E/F (Ex UAE AF)


After 20 Years:

50 X F-16 E/F (Ex UAE AF)
All Mirage 2000 of French Air Force.

and if this is not enough from Gulf, why not consider the following:

30 X F-18 E/F (Ex Kuwaiti AF)
40 X F-15 C (Ex RSAF)
40 X F-15 SA (EX RSAF)

Indian AF is maybe retiring Mirage 2000 so lets consider those too while PAF will be looking to buy Israeli AF F-16 through a 3rd party.

By this time 5th Gen aircraft are common and 6th gen completing testing or nearing induction, where as PAF boasts a 4th gen combat aircraft inventory of 400-450 aircraft and around 25 X 5th gen J-31, while laying around in inventory are another 50 F-16 and 100 Mirage 2000 for cannibalisation

After 25-30 Years:

PAF inducts first squadron of used EF-2000 recently acquired from RSAF.

After 50 years:

PAF is the largest operator of EF-2000.

what the hell is PAF doing :-(

 

[aliyusuf]

Pursuing used F-16s and having MLU on them makes sense in as much as getting a near Block-52+ capability for 25% of the cost. No additional cost is incurred as the PAF already operate these birds. It is by far a very good bang for the buck in the short and intermediate term.

Acquisitions in this manner throw no -ve light on the effectiveness of the Thunders.

But if such an approach is taken to acquire used Mirage-2000-5, totally a different fighter than any Mirage the PAF flies ... the cost of acquisition, operation, infrastructure and maintenance would be quite demanding. Also reflect quite negatively on the effectiveness of the Thunders. If Pakistan go this route, then future sales prospects for the Thunder will take a beating.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Signalian]

Anyone else thinking this is the post-Mirage ROSE Ra'ad solution? @Bratva @JamD

why isnt JF-17 in your equation for Ra'ad and after JF-17 why not a 5th gen stealth aircraft.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

PAF acquisition in the next 50 Years:​

Very soon PAF will boast the largest fleet of Mirage 2000 in the world followed by F-16


In recent future:

12 X Mirage 2000 (Ex Qatar AF)
15 X F-16 (Ex RJAF)
12 X Mirage 2000 (Ex Brazilian AF)


After 5 Years:

7 X Mirage 2000 (Ex Peru AF)
10-20 X Mirage 2000 (Ex French AF)
15-20 X F-16 ( Ex VenezuelanAF)


After 10 Years:

10-20 X Mirage 2000 (Ex French AF)
All Dutch, Danish, Norwegian and Belgian F-16's.

After 15 years:

12 X Mirage 2000 (Ex Egyptian AF)
60 X Mirage 2000 (Ex UAE AF)
20 X F-16 E/F (Ex UAE AF)


After 20 Years:

50 X F-16 E/F (Ex UAE AF)
All Mirage 2000 of French Air Force.

and if this is not enough from Gulf, why not consider the following:

30 X F-18 E/F (Ex Kuwaiti AF)
40 X F-15 C (Ex RSAF)
40 X F-15 SA (EX RSAF)

Indian AF is maybe retiring Mirage 2000 so lets consider those too while PAF will be looking to buy Israeli AF F-16 through a 3rd party.

By this time 5th Gen aircraft are common and 6th gen completing testing or nearing induction, where as PAF boasts a 4th gen combat aircraft inventory of 400-450 aircraft and around 25 X 5th gen J-31, while laying around in inventory are another 50 F-16 and 100 Mirage 2000 for cannibalisation

After 25-30 Years:

PAF inducts first squadron of used EF-2000 recently acquired from RSAF.

After 50 years:

PAF is the largest operator of EF-2000.

what the hell is PAF doing :-(

man this was hilarious

acha sorry... F sola and PAF's love for it it's not gonna end in 30 years from now.. Even today if US offer PAF F- SOLA PAF will run to grab them

why isnt JF-17 in your equation for Ra'ad and after JF-17 why not a 5th gen stealth aircraft.

JF-17 can't carry Ra'ad under it's belly. we have to place it on the wings of JF-17 but by doing that Fuel tanks would be dropped reducing the range of JF-17

5th generation is not coming till a decade forget 5th generation now. Chinese J-31 is not Ready yet Turkish on is in Designs only do you see any other country?

 

[war&peace]

Someone is pocketing a large sum of money here.

I wish the deal is done transparently..it is not a nuclear or missile program so all the details about monetary aspects should be made public.

 

[Signalian]

JF-17 can't carry Ra'ad under it's belly. we have to place it on the wings of JF-17 but by doing that Fuel tanks would be dropped reducing the range of JF-17

5th generation is not coming till a decade forget 5th generation now. Chinese J-31 is not Ready yet Turkish on is in Designs only do you see any other country?

So for carrying Ra'ad, a new aircraft is required still.

This can be worked out in two ways:

First: Changing weapon (Ra'ad) dynamics

1. Next version of Ra'ad can be designed to to be carried by JF-17 underbelly. If thats still not possible due to low height of JF-17 then the new version of Ra'ad should be made considering J-31 as platform keeping in mind the size of internal bays.
A smaller design challenge would be a compromise between payload or range. Either a smaller warhead but comparatively larger fuel capacity or a large warhead but smaller fuel capacity. In either case, the range wont match 350 km of current Ra'ad version, probably 150km or 250km, but it will definitely more stealthy.

2. If PAF wants a newer version of Ra'ad with 500-750 km range, means larger size and more weight. In such case a preferable platform would be a twin engine jet. Probably an aircraft that could carry two.

Second: Changing the delivery system (Aircraft)

1. If a new aircraft is acquired would the cost be justified. Mirage 2000 is a cheaper to buy option, agreed, but it brings a few issues with itself too.

a. Old airframes means it will need to be replaced earlier than a new aircraft so its a short term solution. service lifetime is lesser than a new aircraft.

b. Facilities will be upgraded to induct training sims, pilot training, spare part acquisition, upgrade of avionics (at some stage), engine overhaul and other maintenance issues. (This is all cost related)

c. It doesnt have an AESA but does have HMDS/MICA IR/MBDA Apache/and other French related weaponry, apart from being a good (not excellent) substitute for PN naval mirages.

d. The upgraded versions of JF-17 could have benefited more from Rafale induction than Mirage 2000. If this open doors for best French avionics and weapons suite for JF-17 at some stage, then its a great option, however, Chinese are catching up fast in this area too and will provide cheaper(loan etc) and hassle-free( no strings) acquisition of next gen weapons and avionics for JF-17.

2. Considering SU35 or EFT. In longer run, these aircrafts offer much more than Mirage 2000 in every aspect. I wont go in details as they have been discussed many times. I am not sure if induction of Ra'ad would be an issue with these 2 types of a/c.
I will vouch for J-10 also.

3. 5th gen is the future, will PAF always use 4 or 4.5 gen aircraft for delivery of Ra'ad. When J-31 will be inducted, its stealth characteristics make it the best platform to carry Ra'ad (preferable Internally).

 

[untitled]

Someone is pocketing a large sum of money here.

Why you must always spoil the party ?

 

[shah1398]

.since India is getting pakfa all our birds will be a target practice for pakfa I mean lion vs deer competition Instead of wasting money on second hand old generation planes like jf17 aka Soviet rejected mig33 mirage 2000 invest on economy strong economy means more money more budget means expensive toys like pakfa j20

PAKFA,FGFA, AMCA and all likes of them are atleast a decade away and during next 5 years we have to retire almost 190 oldies. We have to fill this gap with JF-17s and others. So rather to fill the gap with expensive and 4th Gen gen aircraft, we are actually opting for likes of these and thus actually saving the money and the so called second hand old generation is not only bringing in more capabilities to PAF but has actually started to fetch us money as we are selling them abroad too. And plz dont worry about our economy. We know when to get any fighter/equipment from anywhere in the world when the need is imminent. Its our headache. We aint racing against anyone.

 

[That Guy]

Why? You may as well just get second hand F-16s, and continue investing in thunders.

 

[Imtiaz_Sarwar]

A second hand thing is always a second hand thing. Whether it is a car or plane or anything else. We had second hand mirages during Kargil war and did we send them against Indian mirage 2000 ? Every body knows that the answer is NO. So now we are talking about buying second hand mirage 2000.
For the sake of argument, lets say that if in future there is a war with India and India acquires rafale fighters by then. If we buy second hand mirage 2000 now, will we send second hand mirage 2000 against india's rafale and SU30 MKI or repeat Kargil history ? Nobody knows the future. This is some thing to think about.
By the way could any body on this forum comment on how much mirage 2000 would cost the tax payer of Pakistan ? We should use our resources very wisely.

 

[fatman17]

Qatar and Pakistan are said to be engaged in talks since the beginning of this year over a deal for the French-made aircraft of type Mirage 2000-5 in service with the Qatari Air Force (QAF). The following 391-word report sheds more light on the subject and tells what about the talks between Qatar and Pakistan over the deal and what aircraft Qatar might purchase to replace the Mirage 2000-5s. [Briefly reproduced in TR Weekly Issue No 23/27 – July 1, 2016] - See more at:

http://www.tacticalreport.com/view_news/Qatar:-Talks-with-Pakistan-over-Mirage-2000-5s/5055

oh no not again...

 

[艹艹艹]

.since India is getting pakfa all our birds will be a target practice for pakfa I mean lion vs deer competition Instead of wasting money on second hand old generation planes like jf17 aka Soviet rejected mig33 mirage 2000 invest on economy strong economy means more money more budget means expensive toys like pakfa j20

You remind me of India's LCA. 33 years！！

 

[war&peace]

why isnt JF-17 in your equation for Ra'ad and after JF-17 why not a 5th gen stealth aircraft.

There hs been a di

PAF acquisition in the next 50 Years:​

Very soon PAF will boast the largest fleet of Mirage 2000 in the world followed by F-16


In recent future:

12 X Mirage 2000 (Ex Qatar AF)
15 X F-16 (Ex RJAF)
12 X Mirage 2000 (Ex Brazilian AF)


After 5 Years:

7 X Mirage 2000 (Ex Peru AF)
10-20 X Mirage 2000 (Ex French AF)
15-20 X F-16 ( Ex VenezuelanAF)


After 10 Years:

10-20 X Mirage 2000 (Ex French AF)
All Dutch, Danish, Norwegian and Belgian F-16's.

After 15 years:

12 X Mirage 2000 (Ex Egyptian AF)
60 X Mirage 2000 (Ex UAE AF)
20 X F-16 E/F (Ex UAE AF)


After 20 Years:

50 X F-16 E/F (Ex UAE AF)
All Mirage 2000 of French Air Force.

and if this is not enough from Gulf, why not consider the following:

30 X F-18 E/F (Ex Kuwaiti AF)
40 X F-15 C (Ex RSAF)
40 X F-15 SA (EX RSAF)

Indian AF is maybe retiring Mirage 2000 so lets consider those too while PAF will be looking to buy Israeli AF F-16 through a 3rd party.

By this time 5th Gen aircraft are common and 6th gen completing testing or nearing induction, where as PAF boasts a 4th gen combat aircraft inventory of 400-450 aircraft and around 25 X 5th gen J-31, while laying around in inventory are another 50 F-16 and 100 Mirage 2000 for cannibalisation

After 25-30 Years:

PAF inducts first squadron of used EF-2000 recently acquired from RSAF.

After 50 years:

PAF is the largest operator of EF-2000.

what the hell is PAF doing :-(

Actually that is not going to happen. Mirage is being acquired in limited numbers for raising one or two sqdrns to get a high speed interceptor and a platform that can readily launch Ra'ad ALCM without major changes while we wait for some 4.5 and 5 gen A/C to be inducted into the service. The only justification of buying mirage 2000s is some dirt cheap price with the given capabilities.

 

[kaykay]

Second hand F-16s would make sense but second hand Mirage-2000s?

 

[M.AsfandYar]

Iam not a INDIAN sometimes truth is bitter.my post was not critising but a better strategy

Really how so?